49/51 % control horse/human??

RosieJM

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Hello all.

I am still fairly new here. One reason for joining is that I am spending three years studying horse/human interaction within British equestrain culture, and so am embedding myself very happily within it! This means learning new disciplines, talking to lots and lots of horse people about their horses and their sport and generally having a pretty wonderful time.

Recently, one of the ladies I ride with described the ideal relationship between horse and human as being split 49/51 in terms of control. The rider should have 51% of the control. I have to admit I didn't really understand this.

Do you guys agree? How much control do you think you have over your horses, or your horses have over you? How much would you like to have? How much do you think is appropriate?


What are your thoughts?
 

Orca

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The 49/51% point is an interesting one. Essentially, horses are immense, intelligent beasts and I would see the 49% as a nod to the fact that it is really by their grace that we are ' allowed' by them to interact with them in the ways we do. In that sense I agree. It is a partnership based in mutual respect. Obviously, we have to be 1% up because we can read road signs and they can't ��
 

FlyingCircus

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The 49/51% point is an interesting one. Essentially, horses are immense, intelligent beasts and I would see the 49% as a nod to the fact that it is really by their grace that we are ' allowed' by them to interact with them in the ways we do. In that sense I agree. It is a partnership based in mutual respect. Obviously, we have to be 1% up because we can read road signs and they can't ��

Respect is very different from control.
I respect my horse, but ultimately it is me that is in control of him (or, atleast, should be!). Whether he allows it to be that way or not, I still have the control.
 

milliepops

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It is a partnership based in mutual respect.

^^ and willing cooperation. I never want to feel that I am dominant over my horses. I want them to willingly participate in the things we do. That doesn't mean I just sit in the field and watch them eating all day, and never get to have any fun. Mine are dressage horses, but if the relationship became dictatorial then they would not be able to perform well. I like them to be able to express themselves and *want* to be there with me. If they don't feel like that, then I've done something wrong.

So while I do have the final say on most things - e.g. I *could* (were I that way inclined) cause them a lot of discomfort or unpleasantness if they refused to do what I said (therefore i probably have more than 51% control in reality - crikey, i could send them to the glue factory and there would be nothing they could do to stop me), I prefer to *mentally* keep the balance more on an equal footing :)
 

Brightbay

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Control is an illusion. There is no physical way I can stop a 700kg animal with a brain and instincts from doing whatever he likes, and I would be completely kidding myself if I thought I did.

I do, however, have a very large amount of influence on his behaviour as a result of a lot of training, practice and conditioning - considerably more than 51% :)
 

milliepops

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Respect is very different from control.
I respect my horse, but ultimately it is me that is in control of him (or, atleast, should be!). Whether he allows it to be that way or not, I still have the control.

I guess for me I would think of control in a different sense, not in a 'you aren't going to cart me away over that main road' way.
 

Orca

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Respect is very different from control.
I respect my horse, but ultimately it is me that is in control of him (or, atleast, should be!). Whether he allows it to be that way or not, I still have the control.

I think Milliepops describes the balance and partnership I was referring to far more eloquently than I possibly could! ��...

^^ and willing cooperation. I never want to feel that I am dominant over my horses. I want them to willingly participate in the things we do. That doesn't mean I just sit in the field and watch them eating all day, and never get to have any fun. Mine are dressage horses, but if the relationship became dictatorial then they would not be able to perform well. I like them to be able to express themselves and *want* to be there with me. If they don't feel like that, then I've done something wrong.

So while I do have the final say on most things - e.g. I *could* (were I that way inclined) cause them a lot of discomfort or unpleasantness if they refused to do what I said (therefore i probably have more than 51% control in reality - crikey, i could send them to the glue factory and there would be nothing they could do to stop me), I prefer to *mentally* keep the balance more on an equal footing :)
 
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RosieJM

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Thanks for the replies so far!
more questions!
I wonder whether you have more control over a young horse than a more trained one?

Also, is it easier to think about if you can think of an example of somebody you have seen who really has the control ratio badly wrong one way or another?
 

FlyingCircus

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I guess for me I would think of control in a different sense, not in a 'you aren't going to cart me away over that main road' way.

Yeah, I think we both see it in a different way! Really depends what is meant by the word "control" in the OP's first post. I like to be IN control, but I don't like to be controlling (eg, I never reprimand a horse for expressing himself...unless it's done with ill intent!)
 

rachk89

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When he knows I am the leader I have about 90% of the control but you know you have to leave something for instinct. He isn't gonna listen if a predator suddenly jumps out to try and eat him not that that happens haha.

When he is in a bit of a mood with me it can be less but he will usually give in in the end and let me win basically haha.
 

sarcasm_queen

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If he's in a good mood, I have about 90% control. If he decides he doesn't want to listen and would rather gallop back to his food, it goes down to about 5%. He's a wee bit stronger than me.
 

NZJenny

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Thanks for the replies so far!
more questions!
I wonder whether you have more control over a young horse than a more trained one?

Also, is it easier to think about if you can think of an example of somebody you have seen who really has the control ratio badly wrong one way or another?

I think of "us" as a team. Horse provides the brawn and I provide the brains - mostly! The ratio is a bit fluid depending on the situation.

As with any team it takes time to build the relationship, so I think the ratio becomes more fluid as the horse gets older. For example you have to steer young horses, but an older horse becomes very adapt at picking up your very subtle shifts of balance.

Personally I think that people who need a ton of hardware just to go for a hack, have the control ratio badly wrong. But I also see a lot of badly trained horses that have been taught to take control.
 

Enfys

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Ney! I like to have 100% control, thankyouverymuch.
If I ask my horse to do something, I expect him to do it.

This ^^^

Respect has been mentioned in some responses, I think that there is a huge difference between control and respect, different issues.
 
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YorksG

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^^ and willing cooperation. I never want to feel that I am dominant over my horses. I want them to willingly participate in the things we do. That doesn't mean I just sit in the field and watch them eating all day, and never get to have any fun. Mine are dressage horses, but if the relationship became dictatorial then they would not be able to perform well. I like them to be able to express themselves and *want* to be there with me. If they don't feel like that, then I've done something wrong.

So while I do have the final say on most things - e.g. I *could* (were I that way inclined) cause them a lot of discomfort or unpleasantness if they refused to do what I said (therefore i probably have more than 51% control in reality - crikey, i could send them to the glue factory and there would be nothing they could do to stop me), I prefer to *mentally* keep the balance more on an equal footing :)

Agree with this entirely. Physically 500kg of horse *allows* me the control, hopefully because my method of thinking is different from theirs, getting them to want to please is the key to the partnership and to this end we exploit their attachment systems and social needs.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I think Milliepops describes the balance and partnership I was referring to far more eloquently than I possibly could! ��...

I'm with Milliepops. My horses are well-mannered and co-operative because they enjoy doing what I ask. Occasionally they will question what I ask and occasionally they will be right. I like horses with personality and I like them to be able to express their personalities.
 

SO1

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I think in most situations we underestimate the horse and the level of control we think we have over them. Ultimately being so much stronger and faster than us they have control in that they decide if they want to comply with us or not.

I don't think we ever have control over horses we just reach an understanding where they agree to behave in a certain way if we behave in a certain way but they could change their minds at any point.
 

fburton

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Agree that 100% control is illusory. I also think that 'leadership' is a bit of an illusion too. In my view, horses are cooperative and well-mannered because they trust (and maybe even like) the handler (or even people in general), and because they have learned to behave in this way - not because they look to us as a leader. However, some qualities we associated with good leadership may be very useful in teaching them and gaining their trust: confidence, clarity, consistency, fairness, etc.
 

9tails

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fburton has it, I reckon. I wouldn't say we exactly control the horse when what we are doing is harmonious, rather that the horse chooses to comply as it thinks whatever is being asked is a dang fine idea.
 

Emma_H

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Do any of us really truly ever have control? If our horse wants to do something it will do it. We are weak compared to them
I think we mostly have obedience don't we?
 

madlady

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I think that us humans like to think we are in control but really if one of my horses ever decided to have a major difference of opinion with me what realistically could I do about it?

The only thing us humans can control really is food and day to day care regime. We can work with our horses to ask them to do things we want to do and for the most part they will agree but we are fooling ourselves if we think that we are in control of that ;)
 

rowan666

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I'm with Milliepops. My horses are well-mannered and co-operative because they enjoy doing what I ask. Occasionally they will question what I ask and occasionally they will be right. I like horses with personality and I like them to be able to express their personalities.
^^ This
 

Annagain

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It's a very interesting discussion. None of us can make a horse do something it doesn't want to do as the old saying involving leading a horse to water shows. The trick is making him want to do it and training him to understand what we're asking and to respond to that. Whether that amounts to 'control' I'm not sure. I think being able to think for himself and make certain decisions is necessary for a horse to keep himself, and therefore his rider, safe, like when to take off over a fence, whether to go through or over a ditch out hunting etc. There's a fine balance and I imagine the percentage will range from 0-100 on both sides at different times.

Sometimes it's better the horse is 'in control'. There was footage on Facebook a week or so ago of a little girl in Australia and her pony having a go at show jumping. She had had a nasty fall the day before and was obviously wary. The pony went at the first fence 'normally'. She wobbled and from then on the pony jogged at each fence and stepped over them. No amount of her kicking would make him go faster. He was about 95% in control (she was still steering) but at that moment it was the best thing for both of them. The mum posted a week later they were back to flying around as they normally do but that day he decided she needed looking after.
 

Moon Dancer

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I was once told in a lesson with a very experienced eventer, that a horse and rider are a partnership as soon as one 'tells' the other what to do then its a dictatorship which is when problems can occur due to horse waiting to be told rather than doing their job i.e jumping a fence. I therefore dont believe we have control as such.
Like most people have said if they want to do something we have no control over this.
 

planete

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I feel how much control we have depends on how successful we are at convincing a horse we know best so that he is happy to leave decisions to us. How much "brainwashing" we need to do depends on the personalities of the horse and rider and the activities they are are going to engage in. I mean brainwashing in the nicest possible way through appropriate gentle breaking and schooling obviously. I have just been looking at the dressage mare performing faultlessly in a mega spooky environment in another thread (Well!) and reckon a lot of habituation and reward training has taken place to achieve this level of control. I like to achieve the kind of relationship where the horse trusts me to keep him safe regardless of what is going on but am quite happy to let him make decisions when crossing broken ground for instance. Real control comes from trust.
 

tashcat

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Interesting concept.

From personal experience my horse has a much greater % of control than I do. It works well for us.
That being said no % or theory works in every situation, with every horse and every owner.

So a nice a idea, and something definitely worth studying, but putting a figure to is impossible IMO.
 

JanetGeorge

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In Oz MANY years ago I had an ex-racehorse who was VERY uncontrollable! My fantastic trainer (Art Uytendaal) took over the ride when I'd spent a full season trying to get it right (we either came 3rd or 4th - or nowhere depending on whether I'd managed to make the turns.) Art used to say: "With most horses, it is 60/40 - I'm 60. With HIM, it's 70/30 - I'm 30." Bewing 'allowed' to do it largely his way meant the horse became the top showjumper of his day within 3 years.
 

alibali

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Great thought provoking thread :)

Interestingly the best results I've ever had have been when I've clearly shown the horse what I'd like to achieve but left the finer details of 'how' to them. So not over controlling, as a previous poster stated co-operation from the horse and trust from me as a rider to allow them to the horse the freedom to sort the minor details out.

So ideally control 40% me (the purpose) and 60% the horse (the action). Of course that only works if horse and rider have the same purpose......... Otherwise it becomes much more messy and around the 50:50 argument mark!!!

Currently trying to convince my very sweet, very gentle, very willing to please boy, where control is 99.9% me and 0.1% him, that actually he should be making some decisions for himself. He bucked with me in the arena today which I take as a good sign but honestly I'm not holding my breath!
 
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