5 stage vetting and undiscovered sarcoid

hoarse

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Hi, this is my first post so please bear with me!

I purchased my Irish cob a week ago from a dealer and before purchase I had a 5 stage vetting. I have now noticed two sarcoids (the size of a pea), one in the girth area which were not mentioned by the vet. If they had been mentioned I would have avoided buying this horse. I can return the horse to the dealer and lose a percentage of the purchase price but with this and the transport costs if he is returned, I am hugely out of pocket. The horse was not cheap at £4K so I am wondering whether I should return him and steer well clear and try and get some recompense from the vet or whether I should keep him? All responses gratefully received. I'm in a real dilemma!
 

Orangehorse

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Have you discussed this with the vet? Did he notice them, are they sarcoids? What is the vet's reaction?

Whether you return him or not is your decision. If you can't bear to have a horse with this condition then, as the saying goes, make your first loss the last. I know you will be losing money, but you would have lost if he had failed the vetting for anything else. As for paying the vet's bill .............. leave that one to you!
 

cptrayes

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I have just deliberately bought a horse with sarcoids because he cost less than half what he's worth. But if any of his three had been anywhere near where tack or body parts would rub, I would not have gone near him. I think you need an urgent talk with your vet, with a view to returning the horse and the vet compensating you for the loss. Good luck.
 

hoarse

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Hi, thank you for your replies. I wasn't present at the vetting as the horse was a fair distance away, however I had a telephone conversation with the vet once he had completed the vetting and there was no mention of them nor in the subsequent report. I only discovered them over the Easter weekend so have not yet had a chance to get my own vet to look at them or to contact the vet that completed the vetting and not sure what initial course of action to take. Are my chances of getting any compensation from the vet very slim?
 

Goldenstar

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You need to talk to the vet ASAP and see what he says .
Sarcoids are fond of popping up when horses move it's the stress.
If the vet says they where not there at the vetting and you took a week to find them it will be difficult presumably you checked the horse when you tried it ,where they there then ?
Fatty get sarcoids one day there are non the next he has one .
You will have to prove the vet missed them .
 

cptrayes

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You need your own vet's advice on whether they could possibly have come on rapidly, and I agree with GS, I've seen that happen too. If there is no way they could have appeared overnight, then your chances of compensation will be much higher, but it will be difficult to prove, probably. What a shame your enjoyment of your new horse has been spoiled :(
 

Nugget La Poneh

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And on the other hand, if they have been missed off the report and they do prove to be sarcoids, it at least means you can get them treated via insurance. You have to weigh up horse worth over cost I'm afraid
 

hoarse

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I did wonder whether it could be stress related and whether they could have come on after I had got him. I did check him over but clearly not as thoroughly as I should have :( Would a vet be able to determine if they had come on rapidly. It has sadly really spoilt what should be a very exciting time, now i'm just wonderering whether I should cut my losses. Had it been anywhere else I wouldn't be being quite so negative :(
 

hoarse

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Thank you Nugget, I did wonder whether it could be a bite etc but then noticed he also has once between his front legs which led me to the sarcoid conclusion.
 

cptrayes

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And on the other hand, if they have been missed off the report and they do prove to be sarcoids, it at least means you can get them treated via insurance. You have to weigh up horse worth over cost I'm afraid

Probably not unless this thread is withdrawn and she lies, unfortunately. Most insurance does not cover anything except accidents in the first two weeks.
 

twiggy2

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And on the other hand, if they have been missed off the report and they do prove to be sarcoids, it at least means you can get them treated via insurance. You have to weigh up horse worth over cost I'm afraid

most insurance policies have a period of exclusion that lasts at least 14 days to rule out any pre-exisitng conditions
 

Nugget La Poneh

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I am aware of the exclusion, but if it is a sarcoid then there is a chance that it will continue to be there and could need treatment in the future (it might disappear, but come back in 3 years time). Hence my comment about weighing up the horse's worth over cost.

OP, if they weren't there when you checked him over and they are now 'obvious' then it would suggest they might not've been there at the vetting. Which could still mean they are just marks rather than sarcoids.

The vetting vets - did you appoint them yourself, or from recommendation by the dealer?
 

twiggy2

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I am aware of the exclusion, but if it is a sarcoid then there is a chance that it will continue to be there and could need treatment in the future (it might disappear, but come back in 3 years time).


So it would be classed as a pre-existing condition and excluded from legal claims and claiming for it would be committing fraud
 

hoarse

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Nugget I didn't notice them when I checked him over and they are not obvious now. Only noticed the girth one when paying particular attention to that area after him getting sweaty there after a ride and then on closer inspection found the one between his legs. My main concern is not the insurance but whether I should consider keeping him or get out while I still have an option even though it will be a costly one.
 

Nugget La Poneh

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Nugget I didn't notice them when I checked him over and they are not obvious now. Only noticed the girth one when paying particular attention to that area after him getting sweaty there after a ride and then on closer inspection found the one between his legs. My main concern is not the insurance but whether I should consider keeping him or get out while I still have an option even though it will be a costly one.

The insurance was a side note (and one I admit that is a not fair side note due to timescales and exclusions etc. as pointed out by others) - but until you get a diagnosis from another vet, you can't make a decision either way. This was the reason I asked about the appointment of the vet that did the vetting - if it was one recommended by the dealer, that might make a difference in how you make a decision.
 

YasandCrystal

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OP if you decide to hang onto him may I suggest you join the Turmeric user group on facebook - there are countless success stories of horses being ridded of sarcoids through feeding turmeric, oil and black pepper and applying it as a paste topically. Even Prof Knottenberg advocated it to a user. I have a filly who had an aggressive fibroblastic sarcoid - I treated that alternatively and it disappeared with 10 days with no sign whatsoever of where it was or any reappearance and that was a year ago.

I would have thought that your argument is with the vetting vet and not the dealer, since you had the horse vetted.
 
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hayinamanger

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Bad luck, OP, I would get your own vet to examine the horse and write a report on his findings, then you can speak to the vet who carried out the pre purchase examination.
 

Kokopelli

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OP sorry not much help on sarcoids but you can return the horse for full purchase price as you bought from a dealer, do not let them tell you otherwise.

You can return for no reason if you wish.
 

HeresHoping

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Was your horse vetted in Ireland or the UK? I ask because there is far more significance placed on sarcoids in the UK than there is in Ireland - at least that is what I was told by someone who regularly brings horses over to the UK for sale. She is Irish herself and was quite shocked at this. She may have just been ignorant of the facts but I'm not so sure as she is quite well known and was backed by another Irish person during the conversation. She wasn't trying to sell me anything, so I don't think it was for my benefit in any way.

It may be therefore that the sarcoid wasn't so much as overlooked as not marked for concern.
 

cptrayes

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OP sorry not much help on sarcoids but you can return the horse for full purchase price as you bought from a dealer, do not let them tell you otherwise.

You can return for no reason if you wish.


Kokopelli in really sorry but I don't think this is true. Like any other purchase, I think you only have a right of return if the horse is not fit for purpose or materially not as described.

I don't actually think the seller has done a single thing wrong here. The horse was made available for inspection, nothing was hidden. IF the sarcoids were there when it was vetted, then I think the buyer's claim is against the vet, not the seller. The seller will take it back at a reduced fee (though that may be VERY reduced now it has sarcoids diagnosed). The vet should make up the difference.
 

hoarse

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He was vetted in the UK. I haven't yet mentioned to the dealer about the sarcoids but am having a few other minor issues with handling him. On that basis the dealer was happy to take him back but with a 10% deduction. With the cost of transporting him being £180 each way plus the original vetting if I return him i'll be almost £1,000 down! Are they not supposed to deduct a percentage if you return? Think as you all rightly say, the first port of call needs to be my own vet. I'll get them out for tomorrow and take it from there. Thank you all for your help and any more comments very welcome :)
 

YasandCrystal

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You cannot really count the vetting cost or the transport costs. They are par for the course of buying a horse. I expect that is correct the dealer reducing the price back to you - they have to readvertise the horse etc. If you are not happy with the horse on other grounds and they have agreed to take it back - I wouldn't bother substantiating that these are sarcoids or not - for what point? Just send it back and take the monetary hit.
 

AmyMay

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Well, it is possible to miss such small sarcoids - even on close examination. And of course there's every chance that they've just appeared - due to the stress of his move.

As others have said - your first step is your own vet.

You also mention handling issues - but don't go into details. But remember you've only had this horse a short while, and many can take a long time to settle. My last horse took about 6months.

I can't see that you have any reason to return the horse - sorry. And at this stage I'd work with your vet on the best course of treatment for your horse.
 

nuttychestnut

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Sorry to hear this. I've owned 2 horses that had sarcoids, both were treated via the vet. The first one got treated with Liverpool cream over 15 years ago, was around £1k then if I remember. The 2nd horse was treated with a red cream, no idea of the name. Cost around £250 to treat. Both took around 6 weeks to work and disappear completely. The first horse's never returned in the 15 years I had her, the 2nd's never returned in the 8 years I had him.
I have never really understood why small mild cases of sarcoids are terrible and the horse is rejected for normal use. I can understand for breeding and showing but for all other reasons they are treatable.
Could you not ask the seller for a refund for the cost of removing them? If the horse is suitable in all other aspects why not keep him.
 
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