5* Vetting missed major problem, where do I stand?

[KatieLluvia]

I would do a fresh post. You'll get lots of info on going barefoot (which isn't for everyone), however the principles of feeding for the foot is effectively the same.

ok, thankyou so much!

 

[Bikerchickone]

You can feed rolled oats for slow release energy, but agree with Amymay a fresh post or searching for old posts about good barefoot diets would give you the answers you need.

 

[KatieLluvia]

You can feed rolled oats for slow release energy, but agree with Amymay a fresh post or searching for old posts about good barefoot diets would give you the answers you need.

Ok! Thankyou so much! has really helped

 

[AmyMay]

The problem is, she lacks energy too, so the balance is hard! Will look into Progressive Earth, thankyou!

The lack of energy may simply be a management issue - again tied in to foot and digestion issue, as well as only one feed a day for a horse expected to be competition fit.

 

[Goldenstar]

A farrier ought not be suggesting 'treatment' for a lameness of this type without imput from a vet .
To put heartbars on a horse without X-rays and a proper work up from an equine vet is madness IMO.
A farriers is simply not qualified to make this judgement .

 

[Fun Times]

Really good advice from amymay regarding the feeding. This is the forum working at its best with people thinking outside the box to come up with solutions, rather than just moaning on.

 

[KatieLluvia]

Really good advice from amymay regarding the feeding. This is the forum working at its best with people thinking outside the box to come up with solutions, rather than just moaning on.

^^ This!

 

[Zero00000]

Just interested to know what you actually think a vet would be able to do about it? apart from tell our farrier to put heartbars on her?

Well for starters your farrier cannot legally diagnose anything, he can advise on what he sees, but a vet has to diagnose and treat, If this is an ongoing issue, that will indeed effect the horse, you need your vet to see it.
What will you do if 9 months down the line you find out there was an underlying issue and your farrier was wrong?

You are worrying about cost, but you are willing to go down a route that you do not know will work, and could end up spending a lot more than is needed, cost should not come into play when a horses welfare is compromised!

We know the old owner, personal circumstances meant that all of her horses had a season off

If you know the old owner, why did they not pick up on it either?

ETA, Good to see you will be getting both your vet and farrier together to x-ray and go from there.
This would be the best solution for you, especially if you find the horse is no longer fit for the purpose you require, your insurance will require this information.

Good luck, hope you get to the bottom of it soon and the horse comes sound.

 

[undergroundoli]

Well for starters your farrier cannot legally diagnose anything, he can advise on what he sees, but a vet has to diagnose and treat, If this is an ongoing issue, that will indeed effect the horse, you need your vet to see it.
What will you do if 9 months down the line you find out there was an underlying issue and your farrier was wrong?

Am I right in thinking the legalities of proceeding with just the farriers say so will mean the insurance won't pay out?

 

[Queenbee]

I had my horse vetted in August last year and the only problem noticed was a splint on her near foreleg. Since we have purchased her my farrier brought a problem to our attention which was that she has a deformity on her heel on her off fore which has been caused by over reaching. He said that this is detrimental to her career as it could cause her to be lame on anything other than an arena surface. I just wondered where I would stand in terms of money as we paid £250 for the vetting with her main problem being missed. I am unhappy with the standard of an expensive vetting!

*could* is a very speculative word... August to may... Your farrier chooses to mention this now? After shoeing her how may times? If she was sound at the time of the vetting perhaps the vets are not to blame, and 9 months is a lot of time for things to change/go wrong.... Personally, if she was fine then... I don't think you can go back now and grumble. I'm assuming you haven't just ridden her in the school for 9 months and she has been fine on other surfaces

 

[Queenbee]

I would be very interested to see photos of this horse's hooves if you are willing to put them up.

Me too...

 

[Queenbee]

But Katie, having just been told by your farrier that your new horse potentially has a problem that could cause a significant problem in the future the immediate course of action should have been to consult your vet.

And, no, we don't all have the money to get the vet out on every whim - but if you are now considering a suit against the vet who vetted the horse your failure to do this means that you don't have a leg to stand on (imo).

Interestingly the vet could have looked at the horse as recently as when they looked at your sisters horse....

Have to completely agree... To be fair Katie the onus is on you, if it was flagged up at the start and you made the decision to ignore it and not check with the vet when it was bought to your attention.... That's down to you. You were given the advice to deal with this in a timely manner and you decided to take a punt, this backfired on you. Personally I'd be looking at why the actual hoof was weak, and diet... To help the horse, not complaining about a vetting and a purchase and a possible issue you decided to take a risk on

 

[Queenbee]

Same horse, its my sisters post. The thing is, the farrier said he can control it, so therefore wouldnt be a problem, however, as the vets ring our farrier for advice on these types of problems anyway, there is literally no point in doing so. It wasn't pursued in August as our farrier said it may develop, but the chances of it doing so are slim. The point we are making is that we wouldn't have bought her if we had known this, the vetting didnt provide this information. It has only cropped up recently because the hoof that has been over the deformity has come to the ground and is causing concussion with the hoof. Farrier said no one could have known this would have happened. Just dont know where we stand.

OMG... 'Vet says no one could have known this would happen'

There is your answer then... Xxxx happens, vets not at fault. No comeback on vets or previous owner.

 

[Queenbee]

Well he will know then that he has to get x rays before he can fit hearbars and if he works so well with them, then its a pity that they did not get together about 9 months ago.

And judgemental - yes for sure I am, you have had a horse for 9 months, its now broken and you want to sue the vet that vetted it.

Suggest your the one that needs to look at what the farrier is actually doing as i certainly would be questioning how a horse has developed a foot problem on "his watch".

1... I Would not agree to any form of 'remedial' shoeing without X-rays!

2. Judgemental... Totally agree with GW

3. Agree again... Especially since farrier said he can 'control it, so wtf has farrier been doing the last 9 months.... If he can control it why the hell is the horse suffering now? Your belief in your farrier is so excellent op!

 

[Honey08]

It was the trusted farrier who said nobody could have known, but yes, I too thought it made any comeback unlikely..

OP I think you'd be better looking forward now at ways to fix this foot issue rather than backwards at something that perhaps should have been chased up months ago.

And just a general observation, but if I had a farrier that the vet asked for help on foot issues, and that I trusted more than the vet, I would probably have asked him to look at a potential horse before buying it rather than just the vetting.

 

[thatsmygirl]

I agree with what everybody else is saying and why you waited until now is beyond me if it really is that bad but then 9 months is a long time for a farrier to make things worst!! Sorry but everybody thinks there farrier is the best but I'd def be looking into the work he's doing.
Diet wise, yes get it sorted, cereal is not a natural feed for horses and full of sugar/starch as already stated , which gets pushed through into the hindgut and can course havoc. Healthy hooves and healthy tummy, great fibre feeds but don't relie on the hoof health and stomach health ( so to speak) to many feeds sell via advertising. U are feeding once a day and to be able to deliver the amounts needed to even give the daily intake for nutrients within the products would be a stupid amount in one go so I would say your not feeding the recommended daily amount and therefor any hoof health etc is ineffective this way. Get a suitable diet going such as speedibeet, linseed and a decent balancer ( pro hoof ) going. Just don't relie on what the packages tell you and do your own research on products are the market is full of crap esp feed wise for horses. Feeding has a lot to do with good hooves.

I would also like to see pics to get a insight as to what your talking about as its hard to advise without seeing the problem plus there might be something obvious that a experienced member can point out stright away to help.

 

[Queenbee]

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your talking about..? The farrier obv doesn't control growth of the hoof, a weak point has developed in the line of the deformity which is why she is lame... Nothing to do with the farrier? Concussion from eventing has further weakened the area, She had not been competed for a year when we bought her due to owners circumstances, so concussion from this seasons events so far has weakened hoof, which is why I am making this post?

Buuuuut... You say that the farrier reckons (and is pretty damned sure) that the issue has been there since a foal. So why is there an issue now... 9 months into your ownership?! It's (in my mind) got to be linked to you (work and/or diet ) or the farrier... That IS the most likely 'weakest link'

 

[Goldenstar]

A farrier should not be taking these decisions .
Why did he not press the panic button the first time he saw the horse that's what I don't understand .
Did you never notice this defect when you picked out your horses feet twice a day ?
You are allowing your horse ( which is lame have I got that right sorry if I have misunderstood ) to be "treated " by someone who is not trained to diagnose and on top of that it's unlawful for him to do so.

 

[thatsmygirl]

Plus the fact you knew this horse with the old owners would suggest that you would possible of known if there was a issue that was a problem already and if so you wouldn't of brought him! Did they use a different farrier!! Sorry but its a good starting point I'm afraid as iv said " everybody thinks their farrier is the best" get some pics up of the problem plus the shoeing and see what people come up with

 

[Aru]

So no vet has seen the horse and actually examined this deformity/defect.

Even though it was noticed soon after purchase and the farrier flagged it as a possible issue for soundness and potential impact in the future....but cannot say exactly when or how the problem was acquired.
Its also been treated with shoeing by the farrier for the last 9 months..was it sound for this time and you are now having lameness issues......or has it been lame since you got it?

and you want to sue the vetting vet...

what do you plan to sue for?
a farrier has diagnosed the cause of the lameness.Not ok..he could get himself in hot water for that..the horse has had no work up or treatment by a vet for this potential career ending issue in the 9 months since it was first observed. again not exactly helping the situation and any potential claim.
How do you know if the defect/damage .one-was actually present at the time of vetting
and two.is the actual underlying cause of the issues?

Or have I got my facts wrong and misinterpreted?

 

[WindyStacks]

Forget the vetting - there's no comeback there. However, for future vettings, take a look at the overall horse and then flag up anything you want the vet taking a double look at - INCLUDING "it hasn't been ridden for a year, can you see any reason for that?". E.g., I've just had a bucker vetted and I wanted the vet to take a really good look at his back because there might have been underlying reasons.

As for the "deformity" - coming from a barefoot stance on this - there is good news - he's already worked (historically) well, so this deformity (and the fact it wasn't picked up before (by any of you!)) indicates that he is fundamentally "OK" and can be brought back to fitness. And breathe. Farriers/good trimmers *can* influence the shape and growth of the horn (and good food of course) - do not buy in to this "oh it's just the way it is". Do not slap remedial shoes on, you WILL exacerbate the problem long-term - remedial shoes will mask his pain, not solve the problem.

Yes, it's going to take time and money to fix, c'est la vie - that's horses for you. But let's take a pragmatic approach, this summer you were planning on eventing - and presumably you were going to have some lessons to improve your game - so that must already be £400 a month we're talking about with lessons/petrol for the box/new kit/entry fees. So that's a bit of spare cash you have straight away to fix this.

I wouldn't give up on this horse, but I'd get some feet people* (dare you ask an EP to have a look?) to take a look and see what can be done. As I said, he's worked well before and you only need look at photos of what can be done to these poor ponies walking on bananas to know that it's not a lost cause.

*not your current farrier who has allegedly allowed his feet to deteriorate.

 

[pip6]

Ever considered the 'lack of energy' is a reluctance to move herself because her foot / feet hurts?

 

[ester]

good point pip6

my thoughts going forwards as really not appropriate to worry about the vetting vet now

1) It might not be the hoof that is causing the lameness

2) I would get a vet to confirm site of lameness and xray feet as appropriate

3) I would shoe/let horse have a break from shoes/plan break from shoes at end of season based on xrays and analysis of hoof confirmation with vet and farrier working together but I would gen up on feet myself so I understood what was going on.

4) I would completely overhaul the horse's diet in line with barefoot feeding guidlines for hoof growth so:
low startch, low sugar, no molasses, poss not alfalfa - particularly if she is a bit gutty too (so speedibeet/fast fibre sort of base poss with some unmolassed chop straw/grass dependent on condition if you want), with added linseed, and oats for any energy requirements. In addition a to good low iron all round supplement such as those from pro earth or forage plus (which I think tend to have yea sacc in for digestion too).

It would be interesting for the foot geeks to see pics if you have some

 

[Queenbee]

good point pip6

my thoughts going forwards as really not appropriate to worry about the vetting vet now

1) It might not be the hoof that is causing the lameness

2) I would get a vet to confirm site of lameness and xray feet as appropriate

3) I would shoe/let horse have a break from shoes/plan break from shoes at end of season based on xrays and analysis of hoof confirmation with vet and farrier working together but I would gen up on feet myself so I understood what was going on.

4) I would completely overhaul the horse's diet in line with barefoot feeding guidlines for hoof growth so:
low startch, low sugar, no molasses, poss not alfalfa - particularly if she is a bit gutty too (so speedibeet/fast fibre sort of base poss with some unmolassed chop straw/grass dependent on condition if you want), with added linseed, and oats for any energy requirements. In addition a to good low iron all round supplement such as those from pro earth or forage plus (which I think tend to have yea sacc in for digestion too).

It would be interesting for the foot geeks to see pics if you have some

100% agree

 

[flojo]

Gingerwitch - I have never heard of needing x-rays prior to a farrier putting on heartbars?? I had heartbars on one of mine last year on his (the farriers) recommendation. I believe in a lot of cases the farrier is often better at hooves than a vet!

So how does your farrier know how to angle the shoe? It's a very hit and miss way of fitting heartbars IMO.

Sorry to go off topic but I'm curious.

 

[STRIKER]

She will be pulling shoes because her feet are too long, get farrier to give her a good short trim and replace with correct size shoe, keep hind feet short so she wont overrach, the damage could be a possible 1/4 crack forming from the overreach, 1/4 cracks can be sorted by going barefoot, regular trimming the hoof will grow out correctly, racehorses overreach all the time and have no long term problems, but then their feet are regularly trimmed and shod, usually every 4 weeks, because they race so often and do so much work on roads going to and from the gallops, mustange had short tight feet because of the distance they travelled and their feet were rock hard.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

If the horse went lame following a ODE, first port of call would be the vet. The vet needs to diagnose where the lameness is. You're assuming the injury is due to the hoof but it have an entirely different cause.

 

[eggs]

When I bought my mare as a 7 year old it was very obvious that she had a deformed hoof from an injury as a foal when she sliced 1/3 of her foot off on some sheet metal. Apart from being very unsightly it never caused any problem (she evented and show jumped). That said I don't believe you have any come-back on the original vet nine months after the vetting.

In your shoes I would be getting the vet and farrier to work together to try and help your horse.

 

[STRIKER]

Agree eggs

 

[fatpiggy]

The problem is, she lacks energy too, so the balance is hard! Will look into Progressive Earth, thankyou!

Why is the shortage of energy a problem if she isn't competing, and if lame, is likely to need a period of rest anyway? I get one thing sorted out at a time unless there is a definite link between them all.