5 year old - not cut out for ridden work?

[TheGees]

Hi all,

When do you know a horse just isn't cut out to be a ridden horse?

I bought an un backed 4 year old 18 months ago, he was in quite a poor state but me being me couldn't leave him when I turned up to what did not look anything like his advert!

Fast forward 18 months -
- He looks a different horse, has gained over 100kg
- Sent to be backed July last year - didn't progress after 8 weeks, not comfortable with a rider sat up. Came home for homework.
- I did some digging, spoke to previous owner, turns out was backed successfully but then bucked off lady I bought him from, she neglected to tell me this.
- Scoped for ulcers as shows symptoms - clear
- Back done - thought kissing spines - x rayed - clear
- Spent winter strengthening, long lining, equi ami, in hand walking
- January - I got a lovely calm and gentle rider to come out, she got on quietly and apart from an initial mini humpy bronc in the first session didn't put a foot wrong.
- I got on after a couple of weeks and he bucked me off - I admit I was very nervous and probably did not set him up well that day.
- His rider continued to ride him - hacking, little jumps and no major issues right up until lockdown.
- Lockdown happened so decided to give him some time out
- 7 weeks ago decided to send him away again, different lady to the first, very experienced and working a lot with groundwork, getting him comfortable in his own skin and less alert alpaca mode. I also felt he needed to be backed for me rather than for the more professional rider.
- He is proving to be cold backed which we are working through, sometimes totally non responsive to rider, other times his back is arched right up under the saddle.
- Sometimes feels very tense under saddle, other times takes it totally in his stride.
- Started hacking out now as when any additional pressure added in the school - trotting - he attempts to throw some shapes.

He has had his teeth checked, has a made to measure saddle, has had the bit fit lady out and followed her recommendations, is on a gastro supplement.

Question is, will we ever iron out his issues? If not enough for me but for someone else? I would not want to sell him on to be passed around as he is quirky / has his issues. Is he maybe just not meant to be a ridden horse?

Sorry this is much longer then I imagined it would be. I am now at the point where I feel like I have lost all confidence and although having 2 weekly lessons on other horses I am wondering whether he is ever going to be for me, after having a very feisty mare for 17 years I am realising a complex young horse may not be for me.

Any advice would be much appreciated, I just want to enjoy horses again.

 

[milliepops]

I would be approaching an excellent equine vet at this point for a thorough work up. ulcers and kissing spines might be big ones to have ticked off but there are lots of alarming signs there IMO.

 

[Goldenstar]

Get hind suspensories scanned asap

 

[Equi]

What breed are they? My point being would they be better suited to pulling a cart.

 

[TheGees]

I would be approaching an excellent equine vet at this point for a thorough work up. ulcers and kissing spines might be big ones to have ticked off but there are lots of alarming signs there IMO.

Thank you milliepops, my vet that scoped for ulcers and xrayed for kissing spines is brilliant and was who put together the strengthening program - we put it down to the poor condition he came in to me having more of a lasting impact then we first thought. What else would you think could be a contributing factor?

 

[TheGees]

Get hind suspensories scanned asap

Apologies, after having a horse with hardly any medical issues for 17 years I am not experienced with hind suspensory issues, is being cold backed a symptom?

 

[TheGees]

What breed are they? My point being would they be better suited to pulling a cart.

He is TB x Welsh cob.

 

[milliepops]

well could be all number of things and I'm not a vet... as we only have what you've written to go on I'd be wanting to take the horse into the clinic and getting them to decide where to begin. A horse that's had some reasonable training, is in a decent condition and is generally a nice enough person doesn't decide to buck riders off or be cold backed for no reason

hindlegs I guess as GS says suspensories would be a fairly common problem, they go hand in hand with spavins and SI issues which could account for the back problem, though my rodeo horse turned out to have a neck issue.. this is where a good hospital with decent facilities to tease the issue out is so valuable.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes it can be .
issues with the suspensory branch can present in many ways problems around mounting and moving away can be one .
They also cause compensation pain in all sorts of weird ways .
its a thing I would always rule out early on in a problem with performance type situation .

 

[Fanatical]

For me 'cold backed' = pain. I know a lot of people will say they lived with a horse long term that was cold backed and achieved x/y/z but for me, if started correctly, horses don't decide to put their back up/ hump/ bronc for no reason, just to be 'naughty'. I'd be going to my vet and wouldn't stop until they found the answers.

 

[TheGees]

Thank you milliepops and Goldenstar that is really helpful

 

[milliepops]

For me 'cold backed' = pain. I know a lot of people will say they lived with a horse long term that was cold backed and achieved x/y/z but for me, if started correctly, horses don't decide to put their back up/ hump/ bronc for no reason, just to be 'naughty'. I'd be going to my vet and wouldn't stop until they found the answers.

yes in general I would agree, I think a back up briefly can just indicate freshness if there are no other signs and it's not something that presents every time. but on the whole cold back + bucking would make me think something is uncomfortable.

 

[TheGees]

For me 'cold backed' = pain. I know a lot of people will say they lived with a horse long term that was cold backed and achieved x/y/z but for me, if started correctly, horses don't decide to put their back up/ hump/ bronc for no reason, just to be 'naughty'. I'd be going to my vet and wouldn't stop until they found the answers.

That is very true, I don't think he is the type to just be 'naughty' either. We have put it down to pain memory potentially from hind gut ulcers.

 

[Fanatical]

yes in general I would agree, I think a back up briefly can just indicate freshness if there are no other signs and it's not something that presents every time. but on the whole cold back + bucking would make me think something is uncomfortable.

Yes, I agree. Occasionally putting the back up through freshness. But if it becomes a consistent behaviour then I'd want to start investigating.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

well could be all number of things and I'm not a vet... as we only have what you've written to go on I'd be wanting to take the horse into the clinic and getting them to decide where to begin. A horse that's had some reasonable training, is in a decent condition and is generally a nice enough person doesn't decide to buck riders off or be cold backed for no reason

hindlegs I guess as GS says suspensories would be a fairly common problem, they go hand in hand with spavins and SI issues which could account for the back problem, though my rodeo horse turned out to have a neck issue.. this is where a good hospital with decent facilities to tease the issue out is so valuable.

Agree with this.


Full work up with a good equine vet.

Also have a 5 panel test done for muscle myopathies. You can do it through animal genetics.

 

[IrishMilo]

It's good that you've already ruled out KS.

Next off I would get his hocks X rayed, and if they are OK his hind suspensories scanned. My horse displayed very similar behaviour to yours (he's only 6) and he's just been diagnosed with hock arthritis, so definitely worth checking.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What are his feet like?

 

[TheGees]

It's good that you've already ruled out KS.

Next off I would get his hocks X rayed, and if they are OK his hind suspensories scanned. My horse displayed very similar behaviour to yours (he's only 6) and he's just been diagnosed with hock arthritis, so definitely worth checking.

Thank you, I think I am best to give my vet a call! Hope your boy comes right for you.

 

[TheGees]

What are his feet like?

He has just had some front shoes on as although he's got quite good feet they are typical flat TB feet and he was showing some soreness over stones.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

He has just had some front shoes on as although he's got quite good feet they are typical flat TB feet and he was showing some soreness over stones.

Maybe also have a look at rockley Farm.

 

[katastrophykat]

For my two pennies worth- From previous suggestions- I would not touch a horse like that for driving. just because there’s no ‘weight’ on the spine, doesn’t mean no pressure. The back is paramount to a driving horse in the same way as a ridden horse, and any driver that knows enough to take on a horse with issues knows that.

FWIW, i’d also x ray again for KS. I know there was nothing seen at the last one but we’re all the angles perfect?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

He has just had some front shoes on as although he's got quite good feet they are typical flat TB feet and he was showing some soreness over stones.

The reason I ask is that balance issues in the hooves can lead to pain elsewhere in the body, especially the back.

There is also the matter of thin soles. That can make a horse very resistant to work and cause them stress.

So I'd look further into that. I'd also take some blood to make sure things are in-line and analyze the diet. Certain deficiencies in vitamins and/or minerals can lead to muscular, behavioral, or just general discomfort issues.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

'Cold-backed' is not a diagnosis, just a symptom. My TBxWelsh who was unpredictable was eventually found to be completely intolerant of a\ll cereals and sugar. She was fine with alfalfa, funnily enough. We had great difficulty sourcing some which had been imported from Canada as it was not in wide-spread use here at the time (30+ yrs ago).
The being poor rings alarm belss for me, as mine had been, too. What are you feeding him on?

 

[Xmasha]

though my rodeo horse turned out to have a neck issue.. this is where a good hospital with decent facilities to tease the issue out is so valuable.

absolutely this ^^

My lad was 'cold backed' and have a very good bronc in him. I did all the investigations you have done, plus feet and hind legs xrayed. It was only when he was 9 and he started showing other symptoms did i get his neck xrayed. He had neck arthritis. Its defintely worth exploring .
Hes one lucky chap to have found you. Not everyone looks into issues as thoroughly as you, I hope you find out whats bothering him

 

[TheGees]

For my two pennies worth- From previous suggestions- I would not touch a horse like that for driving. just because there’s no ‘weight’ on the spine, doesn’t mean no pressure. The back is paramount to a driving horse in the same way as a ridden horse, and any driver that knows enough to take on a horse with issues knows that.

FWIW, i’d also x ray again for KS. I know there was nothing seen at the last one but we’re all the angles perfect?

The KS x rays were pretty spot on, he was sedated so in a relaxed posture and you could still fit a finger in between each vertebrae, my vet is very experienced and said KS isn't even close. He knew before he x rayed him after examining him that he didn't have it but wanted to put my mind at rest.

 

[TheGees]

The reason I ask is that balance issues in the hooves can lead to pain elsewhere in the body, especially the back.

There is also the matter of thin soles. That can make a horse very resistant to work and cause them stress.

So I'd look further into that. I'd also take some blood to make sure things are in-line and analyze the diet. Certain deficiencies in vitamins and/or minerals can lead to muscular, behavioral, or just general discomfort issues.

The farrier he is seeing where he is currently is a barefoot specialist and watches them trot up.

Feels like vet is my next port of call again!

 

[TheGees]

'Cold-backed' is not a diagnosis, just a symptom. My TBxWelsh who was unpredictable was eventually found to be completely intolerant of a\ll cereals and sugar. She was fine with alfalfa, funnily enough. We had great difficulty sourcing some which had been imported from Canada as it was not in wide-spread use here at the time (30+ yrs ago).
The being poor rings alarm belss for me, as mine had been, too. What are you feeding him on?

This is very interesting. He has always had quite a basic feed, over winter he was on a low cal balancer (Top Spec) but for the last 6 months has just had Spillers Daily Fibre or equivalent.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

In my limited experience horses that buck or have cold backs/hump their backs when ridden have hind leg issues - like spavin or weak/damaged stifles. Both my horses showed similar symptoms and initial thoughts by vets were kissing spines on one and neck arthritis on the other. Xrays were clear however. Further tests found the spavin and stifles issues. Other symptoms with my horses included dragging hind toes, reluctance to go forward/choppy stride, struggling to walk down hills or they go sideways down hills, stumbling/tripping etc. Maybe worth a full bone scan if you can afford it.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

Meant to add - both my horses can be ridden comfortably now after medication, physio and rehab and appropriate exercise (no jumping, lunging on circles or intensive cavaletti work). They are both great at Trec, dressage & hacking so we don't miss the lack of jumpng!

 

[ycbm]

The first cold backed horse I ever owned had kidney failure. It baffled one vet and shocked the one who found it. If all else fails I would test for that.
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