80:20 forage distribution.

[PapaverFollis]

They responded to my Facebook comment.

 

[TheMule]

t
yes, Mule.

I think you have to click on read full text. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, just thought someone else may like to.

Interested to see what they send you.

If this is really only 6 horses then it means nothing. I could do a similar study on mine (which are more than 6) and it would mean nothing.

It's the same study as I posted above.
They have now replied to me too, not answering my point, but saying that vets have advised 80:20. They are still making incorrect statements- the study found that between 3am-9am was significantly different. That is not that same thing as 'overnight'.
I have no problem with looking at weight management techniques for overweight horses, but reputable companies cannot mis-use science and quote incorrectly from published work to justify their big statements!

 

[DabDab]

So the study they are quoting is about PH in the stomach and then they have overlaid the findings with general vet feeding guidance which is the 80:20 bit?

?‍

 

[PapaverFollis]

The study showed that there is a significant drop in pH of the stomach overnight (3am to 9am) regardless of whether a horse is fed or fasted overnight. So the inference is that fasting over night gives less increase in risk of EGUS compared to fasting during the day. Saracens quote "vets" for that inference and the 80:20 split. I would like them to elucidate further on that. As it's a fairly big leap from one to the other. I wouldn't say it's incorrect. I'm just not sure it can be said with certainty that it is correct.

I'm not going to be splitting my forage 80:20 on the basis of what they've posted but I'll be somewhat more relaxed about leaving them with their overnight forage ration and not feeling the need to "just give them a bit more to be on the safe side"... and when they are back out on the field overnight I won't give them the net of hay I've been providing overnight and either skip it entirely to promote weight loss or I'll give them an additional net through the day to promote horse happiness.

 

[DabDab]

I'm pretty sure this isn't new news, in that I recall reading (better) studies about rises and falls in acid production before....I'll see if I can find one.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Also " feed less overnight" was genuinely New Information to me! If I'm just a bit out of touch there then I apologise. The reason for starting the thread was more a "woah I did NOT know that, did you?" than a "look what these people are saying, is it true?"

 

[PapaverFollis]

Crosspost DabDab. I've clearly missed the memo on this one then. ?

 

[PurBee]

I'm pretty sure this isn't new news, in that I recall reading (better) studies about rises and falls in acid production before....I'll see if I can find one.

This particular study focused only on the PH of the stomach acid, rather than the amount produced am/pm - which is a shame they didnt measure amount of acid while doing the PH analysis.

 

[ihatework]

I always held Saracen in reasonably high regard due to their association with Kentucky Research.

But that statement extrapolated from that study is diabolical!

 

[PurBee]

So in a way, what the study really suggests which many of us might not have known, is that the PH of the stomach acid a horse produces changes, and isn’t the same ‘high acid’ environment 24/7.

 

[PapaverFollis]

If I did split Beast's forage 80:20 it would mean giving a 16.2hh horse less than 3kg of hay overnight... which seems crazy since I've seen her polish off 3 times that amount in a few hours. ? And to get leftover hay in the morning I would probably have to give her more like 12kg (i.e. almost her whole daily ration).

I still say this is a useful realisation for me and I'm grateful it popped up on my Facebook feed. But I'm not going to just give Beast 2.6kg of hay for 12 hours.

 

[ycbm]

The only thing I could take from that study is -

If your horse HAS to be starved for a large part of the day in order to control its weight, it would probably be better to do that at night than during the day.

I would love to see a study on the development of behavioural issues in horses starved at night.

Personally, having watched their night browsing, I would lose an arm and a leg to try to find a way to give the horse something to nibble all night before I would starve it.

I count myself lucky that my mare will only eat barley straw as a last resort, and is therefore easy to keep slim with food constantly available. I wouldn't have left her without food from my bedtime until morning if she had wolfed it down, I would have continued searching for a solution.
.

 

[DabDab]

Ok, so a quick google didn't turn up much other than that 2009 study, and a similar one (also 6 horses) from 2016. I'll have a proper look later.

I did find this that I had saved as a favourite at some point. Not about varying PH, but there is other interesting stuff in there:

https://www.magonlinelibrary.com/doi/full/10.12968/ukve.2018.2.S1.3

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s been known for some time that being without forage in the dark is better than during the day .

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If the study they are basing their bold statement on is this one (and it's the only published paper I can see by that author in that year) then this is a shockingly mis-represented study and outrageous (and potentially dangerous) thing for a feed company to say
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19927584/

Facts:
They studied SIX horses. That is simply not enough
They studied one small region of the stomach
They found both fed and unfed horses had the most acid production at night (defined as 3am-9am)
Their study had nothing to do with whether day/ night feeding causes ulcers. It wasn’t looking for ulcers.
They conclude: 'Episodes of daytime feed deprivation should be avoided if possible, as proximal gastric acid exposure rapidly increases during such events.'
Which is not at all the same thing as saying we should deprive them overnight

I am appalled!

I am not at all convinced. I cannot see that horses/zebras in the wild sleep at night. They would be at their most vulnerable to attack by lion/wolf/tiger.

 

[TheMule]

This study is actually more interesting and relevant to my mind (same researcher)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18267880/
So again a very small study, but they found that there was a circadian rhythm in one area of the stomach (a horse's stomach is separated into 2 very different parts)

 

[ErnieCob]

Probably worth watching the webinar on Saracens Facebook, where Vet Richard Hepburn explains the 80/20 feeding. He has had vastly more experience of treating horses with Ulcers, and why this feeding pattern may be helpful, than the average horse person. Definitely worth watching. April 2020.

https://fb.watch/3huFPsGSep/

 

[Lois Lame]

I'm always wary of studies from feed companies.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'm always wary of studies from feed companies.

Yup, me too.

 

[ycbm]

I have been checking my horses through the night. They eat less between 3am and 6am, but not nothing.

I am going to stick to my policy of 24 hour access to food with horses who get too fat offered food they will only eat when really hungry.

 

[TPO]

Having camped out in the shed last week on a bed of hay bales and horse rugs (?) I can saw that mine eat almost all night.

The only time they all stopped was to sleep (they all lie down) but when they were up they would alternate between properly munching and picking away.

They all have adlib hay. Two just have haycubes but fatcob gets his hay split between two tiny nets with small holes, one massive net with tiny holes, double wrapped normal nets with big holes and finally some loose in his hay cube. The nets slow him slightly. He rarely touches the slow feeder hay, he inhales haycube hay and picks away at the rest.

I cant imagine not offering adlib forage

 

[TheMule]

Probably worth watching the webinar on Saracens Facebook, where Vet Richard Hepburn explains the 80/20 feeding. He has had vastly more experience of treating horses with Ulcers, and why this feeding pattern may be helpful, than the average horse person. Definitely worth watching. April 2020.

https://fb.watch/3huFPsGSep/

I cannot find any published research that supports where he categorically says, '7pm-7am fasting does not induce ulcers'.
So, within the 5 day time frame he quoted for daytime fasting or full stop? It is a big claim.

 

[criso]

I spent the night in the barn a couple of weeks ago - colic watch. I had the lights off and curled up on a bench between checks so as not to disturb them and not only was there a lot of eating, they are very noisy.

 

[TheMule]

I spent the night in the barn a couple of weeks ago - colic watch. I had the lights off and curled up on a bench between checks so as not to disturb them and not only was there a lot of eating, they are very noisy.

I agree- my horses sleep as much in the day as they do at night- I spent 3 weeks sleeping (or not!) in a horse trailer on foal watch and mine take their longest naps mid-morning

 

[ycbm]

I agree- my horses sleep as much in the day as they do at night- I spent 3 weeks sleeping (or not!) in a horse trailer on foal watch and mine take their longest naps mid-morning

I've seen this. They normally sleep at 11am, it makes me feel guilty wanting to ride then.
.

 

[ycbm]

Time is British Summer Time, actual 3 in the morning. I have others of them eating between 3 and 9am.

 

[criso]

I've seen this. They normally sleep at 11am, it makes me feel guilty wanting to ride then.
.

Mine do in the summer when they are out at night and in during the day but I assumed that was them working around my timetable. So they come in from the field have breakfast then a mid morning snooze. Interesting that it is what they would do left to their own devices.

I usually ride in the afternoon so don't disturb them but yard managers in the past have had to be quick to muck out before or leave it to the afternoon.