80:20 forage distribution.

[PapaverFollis]

Just seen a post on Facebook but can't find it again... was from a feed company I think.

Suggesting that forage should be split 80/20 day/night. Because forage deprivation during the day causes EGUS but during the night does not...

Has anyone seen that?

Given that I can't just feed mine ad-lib it's very interesting in terms of when to apply the forage restriction. But I also usually turn mine out at night and give a little bit of hay through the day so kind of the opposite of that. Although when they are on the hardstanding 24/7 I guess the split is 4/3 day/night.

I'd feel very odd just giving a small amount of hay overnight! But perhaps if they had filled up on 80% of their ration during the day it would be easier to do... and then they can't guilt me into giving them more by making starving faces through the kitchen window...

 

[criso]

I saw some version of this, not that exact ratio but some study that showed that the gut is more active in the day so more vulnerable to lack of forage. I'm a bit vague on details though.

 

[milliepops]

I saw some version of this, not that exact ratio but some study that showed that the gut is more active in the day so more vulnerable to lack of forage. I'm a bit vague on details though.

Same here
Which made me feel better about letting hay run out early morning as per vets instructions for ulcer treatment.
Mine definitely eat more during the day pro rata, compared to nights if they are in.

 

[criso]

This time of year mine will be out and nibbling on not a lot of grass during the day so while eating constantly not getting much. The hay he gets when he comes in overnight will the bulk of his calories but he will run out before morning even using methods to slow him down.

Summer out at night and when there's a lot of grass then realistically is more likely to ignore his haynet and doze during the day than eat. He'll always have a haynet though.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm thinking I might start doing a 5:2 split when they are 24/7 on hay. I've started feeling like I ought to give them a bit more during the day but if I can then reduce what they get at night that would be really good.

It's just weird to think of. I'm so used to tucking horses into stables at night with a big net. I'm already still adjusting to not having them in a stable at night!

 

[Orangehorse]

That's interesting, after all they sleep at night and lie down.

 

[Mahoganybay]

Just seen a post on Facebook but can't find it again... was from a feed company I think.

Suggesting that forage should be split 80/20 day/night. Because forage deprivation during the day causes EGUS but during the night does not...

Has anyone seen that?

Given that I can't just feed mine ad-lib it's very interesting in terms of when to apply the forage restriction. But I also usually turn mine out at night and give a little bit of hay through the day so kind of the opposite of that. Although when they are on the hardstanding 24/7 I guess the split is 4/3 day/night.

I'd feel very odd just giving a small amount of hay overnight! But perhaps if they had filled up on 80% of their ration during the day it would be easier to do... and then they can't guilt me into giving them more by making starving faces through the kitchen window...

it was a post by Saracen Horse Feeds. I am currently going through ulcer treatment for my mare and doing lots of research and this has come up many times.

 

[Sail_away]

I know their stomachs are less active overnight but 80:20 seems quite drastic - I wonder what they’re counting as ‘night’? Mine eats a lot when he’s in from 3:30pm (his choice, he’s at the gate by 3). But I could see him being okay with not having much food from say, 10pm-6am. And I expect with the rate he eats his 10kg ration it’s gone by around then. Would be interesting to find out how they came by that ratio.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It was Saracens. Will post a screen shot.

 

[doodle]

I have tried putting hay out in the day for Robin. They eat for a few mins then wander off and what isn’t eaten is mashed into the mud. No grass for them to eat either. He gets as much hay as he wants overnight. I have noticed tho that if he stays in for the day he eats a little in the day but then less overnight. So he eats the same amount but over a longer time.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Not particularly clear of how the 80/20 ratio was determined.

 

[paddy555]

if I fed 80% of forage in the daytime they would never want to be ridden, their guts would be so full we would never get past a walk. Mine has ad lib hay during the night but eats little and often. In between eating he lies down. He lies down between 4 and 6 times a night usually around the same times and then gets up wanders and has a little hay feed. He spaces the hay out throughout the night and there is just a tiny bit left by morning. If I gave 20% of forage at 7pm it would all be gone by 8pm and there would be nothing left for overnight.

I put Husted 2009 into google to try and find the original date but nothing.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Is this assuming they're stabled at night? Mine is out 24/7 and I've always thought she would move around a lot over night to keep warm, and that she needs a full belly to keep warm.

She usually has a lie down mid morning once it's warmed up a bit (which also makes me think she's not doing much sleeping over night!). She often finds a patch of sunlight and dozes during much of the day. She has adlib hay in hay bags (so I can easily monitor how much she actually eats) and she eats far more over night than during the day.

BUT she's not being ridden at all over the winter. Maybe a ridden horse, stabled at night, falls into a completely different sleep pattern? Maybe summer/winter sleep patterns are different (they won't need the same level of movement or forage to keep warm during short summer nights). Very interesting.

 

[bouncing_ball]

When I had 2 geldings in full work, full clipped and living out over winter; I fed adlib hay in hay feeders, and visited morning and night, and often found they ate little hay over night. (Was little grass in winter).

 

[brighteyes]

and then they can't guilt me into giving them more by making starving faces through the kitchen window...

Hahahahahaha!

 

[Lois Lame]

Is this assuming they're stabled at night? Mine is out 24/7 and I've always thought she would move around a lot over night to keep warm, and that she needs a full belly to keep warm.

She usually has a lie down mid morning once it's warmed up a bit (which also makes me think she's not doing much sleeping over night!). She often finds a patch of sunlight and dozes during much of the day. She has adlib hay in hay bags (so I can easily monitor how much she actually eats) and she eats far more over night than during the day.

BUT she's not being ridden at all over the winter. Maybe a ridden horse, stabled at night, falls into a completely different sleep pattern? Maybe summer/winter sleep patterns are different (they won't need the same level of movement or forage to keep warm during short summer nights). Very interesting.

I totally agree. I think stabled horses must have a completely different routine to horses who live out 24/7.

I've always kept my horse/s out. The routine for the majority of horses in my horse's paddock is:

First thing in the morning: stand around. This is followed by sitting down. Then comes laying down. Snoring. Sitting up. Standing up. Having a bit of a graze. Standing around. Deciding to wander 'over there' or 'over here' to test out that grass.

Midday: activity is starting to ramp up. Serious grazing, in anticipation of more standing around, studying the bark on trees, trading hot gossip (through facial expressions) and sharing fly-swats.

Dinner time: Grazing while watching out for owners. Whinnying. Eating dinner.

I've always assumed that during the night, much time is spent grazing, and (depending on the age and condition of the individual) the occasional run-around is had. Much more running around for younger stock.

 

[PurBee]

I saw some version of this, not that exact ratio but some study that showed that the gut is more active in the day so more vulnerable to lack of forage. I'm a bit vague on details though.

yes, a study i read measured gastric acid secretion which showed more volume produced during the day than at night.
I think that study was related to ulcer research...ill post it if i can find it again.

 

[PurBee]

Due to my facilities at home and the nature of my horses, i have settled on them having about 65% during the day and 35% over night...give or take a few % here and there depending on grazing/climate..

Summer grazing theyre up for it during the day, even when they have free choice to roam and choose grazing or stable during summer. However, if the days are hot, horseflies are bad, they’ll choose shelter and snooze in the stable during the day and let themselves out at sundown to start grazing overnight.

Bowel issues i’ve not experienced to a large degree with them, except when forage source has changed drastically due to unforseen rare circumstances, causing a sudden swing in bowel bacteria levels.

I wonder, for those that give majority forage overnight, whether the stomach acid production alters to producing more overnight and less during the day? Surely some mechanism provokes stomach acid production, and in most mammals thats eating...


i wish there was a study showing stomach acid production in horses fed at night, i’d suspect the stomach acid would be produced, even if falling outside of ‘natural diurnal rhythmns’. Otherwise we’d have a very common cause/effect of severe undigested food/bowel issues in horses fed at night, and that simply isn’t the case...as sooo many horses are stabled at night with majority of their forage. Colic and ulcer cases would be stacked up to the heavens if horse stomach acid production didnt adjust to producing acid when actually feeding.


There is an element with ulcers which makes horses more prone to getting them, no matter when/what forage they’re on - and that’s to do with the ability of the horse to produce enough mucous to line the stomach walls. My memory fails right now the exact mechanism of failure of mucous production, there was a nutritional component and another factor caused by a common medication, but it certainly piqued my interest regarding another viable cause of ulcers aside from the commonly attributed cause of forage restriction.

 

[Red-1]

I guess Rigsby is fed more or less ideally then, as he has 4 soaked nets (restricted through EMS/Lami), one at 6am, one at 12.00, one at 4pm and one at 8pm. Each weighs 3kg, but the nets themselves weigh half a kg as they are always wet.

Strangely, I would have put more in for night, but once 3kg is soaked, it weighs too much to handle easily, so they are all even!

 

[TheMule]

If the study they are basing their bold statement on is this one (and it's the only published paper I can see by that author in that year) then this is a shockingly mis-represented study and outrageous (and potentially dangerous) thing for a feed company to say
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19927584/

Facts:
They studied SIX horses. That is simply not enough
They studied one small region of the stomach
They found both fed and unfed horses had the most acid production at night (defined as 3am-9am)
Their study had nothing to do with whether day/ night feeding causes ulcers. It wasn’t looking for ulcers.
They conclude: 'Episodes of daytime feed deprivation should be avoided if possible, as proximal gastric acid exposure rapidly increases during such events.'
Which is not at all the same thing as saying we should deprive them overnight

I am appalled!

 

[Fluffypiglet]

I was told the same thing about the 80/20 split by the vet hospital when mine was being treated for ulcers so I don't think the feed company are making anything up. However I don't understand it either and mine is always stocked up with plenty of hay when stabled. I think it might relate to the acid production overnight reducing as mentioned by someone else but I can't remember full details as it was several years ago and fortunately we figured out the cause so can manage him going forward. He's a tangy big horse so overeating is not an issue for us. I remember being very interested in the randomness of ulcers and how difficult they are to manage.

 

[DabDab]

Everyone loves the 80:20 rule. Unfortunately if you can't see the pareto that's behind it then you don't know which bits of data fall into the 80 and the 20 and therefore don't know if there are other explanations for the distribution.

My horses are fed ad lib (ish), but they spend a certain amount of hours asleep, generally coinciding with being in their stables at night, because that's when they lie down. If you declare those hours plus an hour or so either side to be 'night' then yes, they probably follow the 80:20 rule.

 

[ycbm]

If the study they are basing their bold statement on is this one (and it's the only published paper I can see by that author in that year) then this is a shockingly mis-represented study and outrageous (and potentially dangerous) thing for a feed company to say
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19927584/

Facts:
They studied SIX horses. That is simply not enough
They studied one small region of the stomach
They found both fed and unfed horses had the most acid production at night (defined as 3am-9am)
Their study had nothing to do with whether day/ night feeding causes ulcers. It wasn’t looking for ulcers.
They conclude: 'Episodes of daytime feed deprivation should be avoided if possible, as proximal gastric acid exposure rapidly increases during such events.'
Which is not at all the same thing as saying we should deprive them overnight

I am appalled!

That is dreadful!

I watch my horses often at times all through the night, and they eat at intervals all night long. Irrespective of acid production i would consider it abusive to have them stood around the vast majority of the night with nothing to do but stare at the walls.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I just thought it was interesting, especially in the context of trying to feed my heifers little enough hay without them being hangry eejits. It might be helpful. But I also find it weird as I'm so programmed into giving a big "night net".

 

[milliepops]

I just thought it was interesting, especially in the context of trying to feed my heifers little enough hay without them being hangry eejits. It might be helpful. But I also find it weird as I'm so programmed into giving a big "night net".

I am too, but being on livery I would be putting them to bed at 6 and knowing (e.g. at last yard) they wouldn't get anything else until YO fed at 7, so a 13 hour stretch.

I think if you have them at home you can do a much more tailored thing such as what Red is doing, if ad-lib isn't an option for some reason.

I have watched mine on stable cams too and not a lot of eating goes on between 3 and 6am with mine so I'm OK with letting the hay run out then, prior to a syringe of gastroguard.
(they have old stuff in their beds but don't generally eat that unless something weird has happened like I'm hours and hours late, so I really don't think they are hungry on this current regime)

 

[paddy555]

Effect-of-a-feed-fast-protocol-on-pH-in-the-proximal-equine-stomach.pdf


I contacted Saracen to ask for a link re this. (above)

 

[TheMule]

Effect-of-a-feed-fast-protocol-on-pH-in-the-proximal-equine-stomach.pdf


I contacted Saracen to ask for a link re this. (above)

Is this what they sent you?

 

[PurBee]

Effect-of-a-feed-fast-protocol-on-pH-in-the-proximal-equine-stomach.pdf


I contacted Saracen to ask for a link re this. (above)

Ah, so the PH of the stomach acid was measured (rather than amount of stomach acid production) and found to be decreased during night, whether the horses were fed ad-lib or starved.

Shame it was done on only 6 horses.....a far larger study is needed to glean a truer understanding.

 

[TheMule]

Ah, so the PH of the stomach acid was measured (rather than amount of stomach acid production) and found to be decreased during night, whether the horses were fed ad-lib or starved.

Shame it was done on only 6 horses.....a far larger study is needed to glean a truer understanding.

And the study bears very little relevance to the content of the Saracen post- it wasn’t studying ulcers, it wasn’t separating night from day, it had nothing to do with 80:20 or any other feed ratio.
They haven’t replied to me on their page

 

[paddy555]

Is this what they sent you?

t
yes, Mule.

I think you have to click on read full text. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, just thought someone else may like to.

Interested to see what they send you.

If this is really only 6 horses then it means nothing. I could do a similar study on mine (which are more than 6) and it would mean nothing.