80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...

[daffy44]

When I went to view a horse at DHI, she told me that that x ray their competition horses leg joints annually. I think if you have horses competing at a very high level, that's very sensible. Like you, I know of no-one who x rays a spine unless there is a perceived problem. Though I do know of an event rider who had three four year olds vetted for purchase by him in 2016, and two were rejected for kissing spines.

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Yes, the horses whose legs I scan annually as routine are a competing GP mare, and a younger horse competing Inter1, well on his way to GP. I dont do the legs of the younger horses who do a lot less.

 

[scats]

Yes, the horses whose legs I scan annually as routine are a competing GP mare, and a younger horse competing Inter1, well on his way to GP. I dont do the legs of the younger horses who do a lot less.

I had a horse who did a colletaral ligament injury in 2005. The vets said that the type of injury he did was particularly common in event horses but, as in my lads case, the damage would start to occur weeks and sometimes months in advance but with no symptoms of lameness until it was basically too late, so many top event horses were routinely scanned to try and spot the initial stages of it.

 

[tristar]

you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding, and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????

 

[cobgoblin]

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines? All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.

 

[Wagtail]

you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding, and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????

Well said. I have been reading this thread with ??? coming out of my head. I don't understand the hostile/mocking/patronising tone of some of the posts. I think it's a good interesting topic.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines? All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.

My friend has one with fairly severe KS who is 15hh, Connemara cross cob at best guess.

 

[tristar]

another question about inherited tendancies.

ways in which conformation contributes to ks and other problems,?


i personally find some wb horses confo nothing short of big time weird, they offend my eye, i have very high expectations where conformation is concerned.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines? All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.

Friends 15hh five year old cob count?

Other than that no i havent heard of a p9ny with it.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

another question about inherited tendancies.

ways in which conformation contributes to ks and other problems,?


i personally find some wb horses confo nothing short of big time weird, they offend my eye, i have very high expectations where conformation is concerned.

I also think there are a lot more people these days who do not know how to work a horse properly. You can go have lessons, get a horse, chuck a gadget on it and get it to "look" like all those pretty horses with no knowledge of what you are actually doing to your horses body.

 

[Wagtail]

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines? All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.

Yes, the cob I mentioned further up the thread was 14hh when diagnosed but gre to 14.2hh.

 

[marieshorses]

you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding, and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????

Thank you! I believe there is so much to learn in regard to backing a horse depending on age. Have you ever heard of horses that are supposed to be a prized future Grand Prix first going *under saddle* around age 5? I have understood this to be controversial at times because of the younger horse classes and benefits to both rider/owner, not necessarily the horse.

I'm also concerned about the impact (-) Vitamin D from sunlight (even on a cloudy day) could have on bone development in young horses, also to the immune system due to most sporthorses being kept indoors. What are your feeling about that?

 

[marieshorses]

Well said. I have been reading this thread with ??? coming out of my head. I don't understand the hostile/mocking/patronising tone of some of the posts. I think it's a good interesting topic.

Thanks! I just feel really bad for those people. All I'm trying to do is engage with likeminded horse owners that either have a background in science or not.

 

[cobgoblin]

This is quite interesting...

https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-11proceedings-424.PDF

 

[marieshorses]

Lots of very patient people on this thread.

Anyway ... from my reading of this thread, I think you DO need to exercise caution, if you're trying to establish prevalence and causation of kissing spines by questioning owners, and especially if the interest was sparked in the first place by a study done on valuable sports horses that have been destroyed as a result of lameness. You're starting from a highly selective sample that's predisposed to a certain result, and by asking individuals for their experiences, you're only compounding that sample because typically only those with experience of KS will respond.

I may have misunderstood what you're after, though ...

My point is that the industry is really neglecting areas of equine health (and prevention). I'm not here to question people in regard to their knowledge of hardcore science. I feel the lack of quality studies--especially preventative--are even noted with owners who have horses diagnosed with KS. The value I'm trying to gain is by learning how the owner found the KS; what do owners know about KS even if their horse does not have KS; if there are any studies similar to the Nurses Study that follows horses from foal to competition; etc; etc.

 

[marieshorses]

This is not just a KS issue. Many horses who are vetted and Xray'd have some of the most horrendous films of their legs and are often in high levels of competition with no past history of lameness or poor performance. Yet some horses who are not in advanced/heavy work are badly effected and unsound with Xrays that show only slight deviations from what would be considered a normal film. As has just been said above conditioning does have a roll to play and regular maintenance physio is desirable for all horses before minor issues become more problematic or compensation injuries occur. Humans are advised to improve our core if you suffer from chronic back pain, I was advised to do weights to improve knee pain which originated from the joint itself for the same reason - improve the musculature support. An x-ray is not a scan it only shows hard tissues not the musculo-skeletal system as a whole. Neither works in isolation. More recent advances have also given credence to the important role of the fascia in normal functionality.

It's not just horses where x-rays and symptoms do not correlate, it is common in human medicine too. For the physical change itself, we can also see patients who are really struggling to function and reporting high levels of pain who on arthroscopy of an effected join show very minor tears of cartilage for example and then others where the clinical picture is pretty horrendous have functioned fine for many years and report their symptoms as "a bit irritating occasionally". This subjectivity I do not believe is confined to humans. I have one horse who is an absolute drama queen at the least bit of a thing and another who has had an abscess burst at the heel after not even being 1/10 lame. You can guess which one I worry about more and have professionally checked more frequently.

As for bacteria and viruses please don't get me started on that one! (I should not be heading for the Gin this early in the day...) We have developed huge problems with antibacterial resistance which is, at least in part, due to them being inappropriately used to 'treat' infections which are viral. If anyone believes them to either a) be the same or b) be treated the same, then please could I can recommend some reading on Medical Microbiology for example Notes on Medical Bacteriology by Sleigh and Timbury. The confusion often arises from a misunderstanding of secondary infection or more complex pictures in the immunocompromised.

I do know with human cases, parasite and amoebas cause a cyclic reaction by both virus and bacteria. Unfortunately, I misspelt the word "synonymous" that should have been 'synchronous'. What I mean by that statement is if the equine, for example, has a strong parasitic load, how does this contribute to the immune system and case of degenerative disease (like osteoarthritis).

 

[OldNag]

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines? All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.

I know a 14.2 diagnosed with KS.

 

[ester]

I too know of some 14.2s, of course the smaller they get often the less inclined people are to spend any money on them/more likely to be written off as never suitable for a child so it's hard to draw much of a conclusion.

 

[daffy44]

Thank you! I believe there is so much to learn in regard to backing a horse depending on age. Have you ever heard of horses that are supposed to be a prized future Grand Prix first going *under saddle* around age 5? I have understood this to be controversial at times because of the younger horse classes and benefits to both rider/owner, not necessarily the horse.

I'm also concerned about the impact (-) Vitamin D from sunlight (even on a cloudy day) could have on bone development in young horses, also to the immune system due to most sporthorses being kept indoors. What are your feeling about that?

Ha ha! Yes, mine, my GP mare was backed at the begining of her 5yr old year.

I think things are changing, so I dont think most sport horses are kept indoors anymore.

 

[daffy44]

I also think there are a lot more people these days who do not know how to work a horse properly. You can go have lessons, get a horse, chuck a gadget on it and get it to "look" like all those pretty horses with no knowledge of what you are actually doing to your horses body.

Sadly I think this is very true.

 

[tristar]

there are horse being backed 2 to 3 years old and shown as 3 yr olds under saddle and on the bit

i think all youngsters should be out with shelters , foals to 4 yrs, and all comp horses should go out for 8 hours a days.

young horses play and move around all the time, try to kill each other enjoy mental stimulation, how to correlate exposure to sunlight with freedom to move is fascinating, in relation to bone formation and future soundness i feel they go hand in hand, regular bursts of spontainious galloping bears no relation to working under saddle, especially if demands are made to assume an outline prematurely.

unnatural life styles in depressing confinement contain an element of frustration and stress which could depress the immune system.

its a well known thing that bone unsoundnesses in animals can be inherited and can be bred out, along with the tendancy to same, soundness is everything in a horse

 

[JFTDWS]

I really would like to ask more questions here, but feel that I've annoyed some of the members in this forum. If you're open to engaging more on this topic--as it relates to the immune system of equines--could I possibly ask your opinion to further my knowledge before heading into the actual research?

I'm not annoyed - though I'm slightly concerned by some of your statements. If you want to do some basic, preliminary investigations into some aspect of the perception of KS in horse owners, you would be better to design a survey that will give you whatever qualitative information you want, and useful, comparable quantitative data. And as ycbm points out, if you plan on using the information you gather on this thread in any academic or commercial context, you really are ethically obliged to disclose that.

If you just want to chat and discuss these things for curiosity's sake, that's entirely different. People will still pull you up on misusing words like synonymous though!

Which aspect of it would you like an opinion on? 80% of horses have KS? I doubt it, and if it's true, I would conclude that it's not hugely meaningful. Could concurrent infections influence the pathology, outcome or prevalence of OA, KS or similar conditions? Perhaps. I wouldn't like to say no, certainly.

 

[amandaco2]

I am of the opinion that horses benefit from being left until 4 or 5 until ridden work starts, based on growth plate maturity.
Mine have all been backed at 4 or five and been very sound horses.
1 has been lame first time ever, aged 11, due to hoof imbalance and resulting soft tissue changes. Her back was sore from holding herself compensating so as a full work up her back was xrayed and absolutely fine.
Mine all live out, except in very wet winters when they come in for 10-12hrs day.
I also believe a shoe break of a few months per year is a good idea, ideally keeping them unshod all year...do accept some owners circumstances+horses sensitivity wont allow this, same with turn out.....
I think to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from back x ray data or diagnosis rates you need to be careful about the pool of horses used and numbers of......

 

[GoldenWillow]

I had a 14.2hh cob x rayed as vet was convinced he had ks. X rays were clear as were his hock x rays.