80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...

[marieshorses]

Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.

You're missing my point in medicine and treatment (viruses that infect bacteria).

 

[Northern]

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.

Joining you here, exiting stage left before I fall off my chair

 

[marieshorses]

I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, and what's most fascinating is the role this plays in degenerative conditions like osteoarthritis, for example. I'm also very interested in this subject matter as it relates to equines. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...ss-not-just-wear-and-tear-study-suggests.html

"Each individual pathogen causes disease in a different way, which makes it challenging to understand the basic biology of infection. But, when considering the interactions of infectious agents with their hosts, some common themes of pathogenesis emerge."

 

[marieshorses]

How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?

For example, in collective studies there is an "estimated" number that X percent of the population will contract the influenza virus, or 65% of the global population is infected with X bacteria. My original post asked if this forum has ever heard of "80% of horses and kissing spine" and specifically the age of horses being pooled.

 

[marieshorses]

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.

Since I am not aware of every single nutrition supplement in the equine marketplace, I asked specifically about ALCAR to make sure this wasn't a patented/synergistic blend of nutrients with L-Carnitine included. I'm sure since you were so quick to point out the form of AA, you probably know the difference between the two: L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine. Which form do you prefer using in equine nutrition?

 

[cobgoblin]

You're missing my point in medicine and treatment (viruses that infect bacteria).

No...I was correcting a gross and basic inaccuracy.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

What type of Vitamin E are you supplementing with? And I assume the ALCAR is l-carnitine?

Natural vit e oil

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.

This

 

[ester]

Since I am not aware of every single nutrition supplement in the equine marketplace, I asked specifically about ALCAR to make sure this wasn't a patented/synergistic blend of nutrients with L-Carnitine included. I'm sure since you were so quick to point out the form of AA, you probably know the difference between the two: L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine. Which form do you prefer using in equine nutrition?

Uh? I just answered the question you asked about what it was sorry for trying to be helpful so quickly, I'll be slower next time if that's a bad thing!

 

[marieshorses]

Uh? I just answered the question you asked about what it was sorry for trying to be helpful so quickly, I'll be slower next time if that's a bad thing![/QUOTE

Thanks! Of which two do you prefer supplementing with L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine?

 

[marieshorses]

Natural vit e oil



This

OK, so d-alpha-tocopherol?

 

[marieshorses]

No...I was correcting a gross and basic inaccuracy.

If the host carries pathogens (like an immune disruptive parasite), couldn't that give rise to disease-causing viruses and bacteria which are treated in sync with the each other?

 

[ycbm]

THANK YOU for sharing! Did you have issues with self-carriage while trying to collect?

No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition.

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in. I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain.

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

 

[cobgoblin]

If the host carries pathogens (like an immune disruptive parasite), couldn't that give rise to disease-causing viruses and bacteria which are treated in sync with the each other?

Treating a viral disease and a bacterial disease at the same time does not make bacteria and viruses synonymous.

 

[cobgoblin]

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

I'm finding it similar to an acid trip!

 

[marieshorses]

No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition.

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in. I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain.

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

What problem did he carry after being radiographed? I agree with you 100% > "you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain." The veterinarians often say "if the horse shows no pain" then all is good. Problem is the subjective ideas of "pain" perception and how that is used in training.

 

[marieshorses]

Treating a viral disease and a bacterial disease at the same time does not make bacteria and viruses synonymous.

OK, I will agree do disagree. *what is an "acid trip"?

 

[marieshorses]

No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition.

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in. I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain.

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

I just referred back to your older message with the radiograph attached. Thanks again for sharing!

 

[ycbm]

Thank you for expanding. Annual scan of legs are hugely important! ;-)

I think you may have mistaken the level that most people on this forum are riding at. Most of us are simply leisure riders. I have competed affiliated and have friends who compete affiliated in almost every discipline, and I know of absolutely no-one who scans legs unless the horse had an issue.

 

[ycbm]

I just referred back to your older message with the radiograph attached. Thanks again for sharing!

I know, that's why I answered you!

You have not answered me, though.

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

You are clearly academic and yet you don't seem to have done the most fundamental search of published studies, asking on here instead, but they are not available to general forum users on a normal Google search.

If this is simply personal, it doesn't sound it. If it is research for a paper, then ethically you need to tell us who you are and the reason for your study.



PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.

tbh, if it wasn't the wrong time of year, I'd have said that this was some sort of rubbish survey-based honours project

 

[ycbm]

Dupe

 

[ycbm]

I'm finding it similar to an acid trip!

More like magic mushrooms, I think? They grow best in horse fields

 

[marieshorses]

I know, that's why I answered you!

You have not answered me, though.

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.

You are clearly academic and yet you don't seem to have done the most fundamental search of published studies, asking on here instead, but they are not available to general forum users on a normal Google search.

If this is simply personal, it doesn't sound it. If it is research for a paper, then ethically you need to tell us who you are and the reason for your study.



PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.

I would never use any information here for public use. My intent for starting this thread is to learn about spinal issues from the owners regardless of their level in riding. Equines have always fascinated me as a hobbyist in addition to their physical performance.

 

[ester]

I think maybe you need to check the meaning of 'synonymous'? As it is I totally agree with cobgoblin in my professional capacity - them being present at the same time is not what synonymous means, is English your first language?

I didn't answer your second question because I was apparently too quick answering the other one so figured a delay would be appreciated. I don't have a horse with a muscle myopathy so it isn't something I have had to give much consideration too, given who I think talks sense nutrition wise it would be the ALCAR without doing further research

 

[cobgoblin]

OK, I will agree do disagree. *what is an "acid trip"?

Lysergic acid diethylamide....a psychedelic drug.

 

[Wagtail]

Very interesting. How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup? I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed. I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health. Any feelings about that?

Cold backed is a symptom of back pain. But many people just dismiss it and work with it. I certainly found my 8 yr old TB with the very severe KS was slightly less reactive to being saddled when he had worn a magnetic rug for 30mins to an hour before saddling. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that the horse had a serious issue and most likely it just made the pain slightly more bearable rather than remove it completely. Horses are generally very stoic animals.

 

[marieshorses]

Cold backed is a symptom of back pain. But many people just dismiss it and work with it. I certainly found my 8 yr old TB with the very severe KS was slightly less reactive to being saddled when he had worn a magnetic rug for 30mins to an hour before saddling. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that the horse had a serious issue and most likely it just made the pain slightly more bearable rather than remove it completely. Horses are generally very stoic animals.

THANK YOU for responding. How would you define a cold-backed horse? One that has actual issues with kissing spine or a tighter bodied horse that needs a longer warmup to get supple? I ask because there are known bloodlines (I know in dressage) that produce horses that are referred to as very loose/gumby-like and then there are tighter bodies horses that feel completely different. So I'm technically confused on what "cold backed" means overall.

 

[ycbm]

THANK YOU for responding. How would you define a cold-backed horse? One that has actual issues with kissing spine or a tighter bodied horse that needs a longer warmup to get supple? I ask because there are known bloodlines (I know in dressage) that produce horses that are referred to as very loose/gumby-like and then there are tighter bodies horses that feel completely different. So I'm technically confused on what "cold backed" means overall.

Cold backed means it doesn't like you sitting on it when you first get on. Some dip or wriggle unless you ride in a light seat. Some buck you off. And everything in between.

I've had three. The first had kidney failure, the second a very weak back and had been ridden by too heavy a rider, the third had kissing spines. I believe it is always connected with pain.

Can you tell us what country you are in? Cold backed is a commonly understood term in the UK.

 

[marieshorses]

I think maybe you need to check the meaning of 'synonymous'? As it is I totally agree with cobgoblin in my professional capacity - them being present at the same time is not what synonymous means, is English your first language?

I didn't answer your second question because I was apparently too quick answering the other one so figured a delay would be appreciated. I don't have a horse with a muscle myopathy so it isn't something I have had to give much consideration too, given who I think talks sense nutrition wise it would be the ALCAR without doing further research

Oh, interesting. So you would use Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR) for what exactly as an equine supplement?

 

[ester]

http://forageplustalk.co.uk/epsm-muscle-disorder-by-dr-kellon-vmd/