A basic horse care test?!

Nudibranch said:
I propose there should be one. No, I haven't a clue how it would be administered or monitored, and I'm sure the suggestion will cause annoyance to some. However in this test I would suggest the prospective horse owner should be able to do the following things before they are able to buy - all of which can be learned like many of us did, the old school way by having lessons and handling different animals by helping out at places with a variety of horses:

Ride at all paces, in a balanced fashion and with sufficient command to hack out on the road safely.

Be able to assess whether a horse needs a rug, and if so the difference between light and medium weight.

Understand the need for a forage based diet, and to assess whether hard feed is needed.

Understand the need for turnout and exercise.

Be able to apply basic first aid, and know when to call the vet.

See and feel under saddle lameness or discomfort.

Those would be the essentials imo - and I think they'd make a difference to the quality of life for some horses. The ability to bring your horse on with schooling would be a benefit, but it seems these days a number of people value this over basic knowledge.

*Ducks and runs for cover*
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Blimey, i have owned horses for nearly 5 years now, and I would have definitely failed your test when I bought my first.
I could ride, for sure, in all paces, but the rest not so much. Nobody rugs here, so I knew nothing about that. When we got our third horse, she came to us very underweight in the middle of winter. It was common sense that she would benefit from some protection, and it wasn't difficult to learn the basics of rugging with a quick Google search to get us started.
All our horses live out 24.7, turnout was a given, although it took a year to learn of paddock paradise, so now they are on that.
Didn't know about horse first aid at all when I bought my first, but being from a medical background I could apply some of my human knowledge. Learned the rest since then. Again, not too difficult to quickly learn the basics. As for calling the vet, my vet is super, I can call him or What's app him and he will happily advise me if a call out is not needed. He taught me how to give IV and IM injections as well as do many other things.
As for lameness or discomfort, well obvious lameness yes, I could spot anything more subtle, no. I still am not great at it. Having just returned my mare to ridden work after 19 months off due to lameness, it is something I think about every day, and I am constantly looking at the way they move.
When I bought my first I had never put on a bridle or a saddle in my life. Couldn't pick out a hoof. And many more things. I don't think my horses suffered a bit, I learned a great deal in the first month of ownership... a lot of the above, plus dealing with veterinary care for piroplasmosis, (horse came to me with this) administering medication, dealing with a sedated horse, looking for signs of colic, all within the first 4 weeks. I have since dealt with fistulous withers, field surgery and aftercare, lameness, the usual minor field injuries, abscesses and thrush, giving injections and now sarcoids. i taught my previously herd bound and anxious mare to hack out alone, gone bitless, am currently learning liberty work, have recently hacked my other mare out solo without a bridle and am currently backing my youngster. its been a steep learning curve, but perfectly doable if you have the time and commitment to throw yourself into it.
 
I agree in principle (and there are plenty of tests already that would cover basic care skills), but a lot of what you suggest can only really learned by daily interaction with the same horse. You should certainly know how to put on a rug and roughly what might be suitable, but without the chance to see how a particular horse reacts to temperature and weather, you can't really be sure what any one horse needs. With feeding, too, you might know the rules, but you can't really learn to apply them until you have responsibility for a horse and can watch how condition and behaviour change over time as you adjust feed. And with first aid - you might get a chance to watch, but actually putting on a poultice, for example, is unlikely to happen until you own one.

As someone who is all too good at spotting lameness, I do despair of owners who don't - but I wasn't born with that skill; most of that awareness, and the confidence to say so, has come from dealing directly with my own lame horses over long periods.
 
totally agree and it needs to be BHS stage 2 sort of area before people can pass and be allowed to own a horse.
 
Totally agree - wish it would happen! Also point out potential vet costs too....

Although - I'm going to go against the grain and say people on full livery should not be exempt. I've had my horses on full livery in the past and the YO's haven't spotted - lameness / cuts / wounds / eye injury - the list goes on.... When I asked for a poultice to be changed in a morning, I was told the saturday girl doesn't know how to do that and the YO couldn't do it as she was going shopping and it was her day off..... (but despite being on full livery I did know how to do this!).

The buck stops with the horse owner not the staff.
 
Whilst I agree that standards of care need improving quite dramatically in some cases, I would not support having to take a test, or pay a high licensing fee to own my horses.
We need to step back from the nanny state, and get people to take responsibility for their own actions, and the more the state intervenes the less likely that is to happen.
I can also see people saying that because they passed the test they know what they are talking about, and don't need to listen! You never stop learning with horses, but some people never start.
 
I know plenty of people who have passed a driving test but still drive like idiots.

People are people, fools are fools, some people are negligent. or think they know better, or more often simply can't be bothered.

Not sure a test would help TBH, hence my comment up thread re licence and removing the licence if people are negligent. No licence, no animals.

I honestly think a test would be more about jobs for the boys/girls, and not really benefit the animals. Goodness me, you can fail the BHS tests quite easily even if you are reasonably competent, for some perceived transgression. I certainly would not look at the stages as being a model exam.

Knowledge is accessible for those who seek it. Those who don't are the same ones who won't be bothered still, after a test.
 
Red-1 said:
I know plenty of people who have passed a driving test but still drive like idiots.

People are people, fools are fools, some people are negligent. or think they know better, or more often simply can't be bothered.

Not sure a test would help TBH, hence my comment up thread re licence and removing the licence if people are negligent. No licence, no animals.

I honestly think a test would be more about jobs for the boys/girls, and not really benefit the animals. Goodness me, you can fail the BHS tests quite easily even if you are reasonably competent, for some perceived transgression. I certainly would not look at the stages as being a model exam.

Knowledge is accessible for those who seek it. Those who don't are the same ones who won't be bothered still, after a test.
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True.

and another thought has struck me. Would a test based in what we know about horse-keeping today necesarily be the right one in ten years time say? Research and knowledge moves on - look at the thinking on worm control, management of genetic conditions such as EMS and PSSM for example.
 
catkin said:
and another thought has struck me. Would a test based in what we know about horse-keeping today necesarily be the right one in ten years time say? Research and knowledge moves on - look at the thinking on worm control, management of genetic conditions such as EMS and PSSM for example.
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I wouldn't even touch on how to deal with issues like that, personally. A knowledge that those conditions exist and that you should seek professional advice if your horse shows signs would suffice. I'd like to go around bashing some owners over the head with basic horse sense:

- if the horse is shivering, rug it, if it's sweating, take the damn thing off. If it's in between, try to use some common sense. Actually, knowing what a rug is, where to get one, and how to put it on would be a start...
- feed it forage, at least primarily, and don't leave it without anything for hours - if it's fat, give it less quality forage, if it's thin, give it more, better quality stuff
- give it turnout, and company, with secure fencing, safe turnout and access to water
- vet, farrier, dentist, saddle fitting, regularly, as required etc and if you're unsure, something changes or its behaviour is unusual, contact the vet / other professional

Ideally, also, don't put it in situations which are dangerous for the horse, or other people, particularly those who can't make reasonable judgements for themselves, but common sense is harder to drill into people.

I don't really think a test is practical or would help - but there are basic standards which people should achieve before buying the poor animal. The finer points of horse care - well, you probably need to pick those up as you go along - but the basics - the real basics - would be a start.
 
Personally I think a questioning attitude and a willingness to ask for advice, listen and learn is more important than a piece of paper. For horse owners AND parents. I was beyond clueless when I got my first pony but I learnt fast and I don't think he was any the worse off for my inexperience.
 
I knew very little when I got my first pony aged 14. I learnt the hard way. The pony survived until he was 31 so I didn’t manage to kill him. Basic classes , easily accessible , non judgemental and non affiliated might be a good idea. However riding should not be part of it, not everyone has horses to ride and you could be the best rider in the world and still lose control on the road.
 
Nudibranch said:
I propose there should be one. No, I haven't a clue how it would be administered or monitored, and I'm sure the suggestion will cause annoyance to some. However in this test I would suggest the prospective horse owner should be able to do the following things before they are able to buy - all of which can be learned like many of us did, the old school way by having lessons and handling different animals by helping out at places with a variety of horses:

Ride at all paces, in a balanced fashion and with sufficient command to hack out on the road safely.

Be able to assess whether a horse needs a rug, and if so the difference between light and medium weight.

Understand the need for a forage based diet, and to assess whether hard feed is needed.

Understand the need for turnout and exercise.

Be able to apply basic first aid, and know when to call the vet.

See and feel under saddle lameness or discomfort.

Those would be the essentials imo - and I think they'd make a difference to the quality of life for some horses. The ability to bring your horse on with schooling would be a benefit, but it seems these days a number of people value this over basic knowledge.

*Ducks and runs for cover*
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What about those who like being around horses, are good with feeding, rugging, general management but can no longer ride???
 
I think too much is being made of the ridden part. If you want to ride then you should have an independent seat. Clearly someone who drives, or isn't interested in either, doesn't need to be able to. I'm pretty sure I've already said something along the lines of if someone plans to ride their horse....
 
I just do not think this would address the most serious horse welfare problems ie live transport and breeding unwanted coloured colts that are abandoned, while increasing the cost for horse owners that are doing their best ,and whose horses would benefit from more money in the owners pocket to pay for hay and vet care rather than paying for a licence.
 
I think there are 2 main issues.

1. People who don't give a stuff about their horses. A test would not help them, it would not make them buy more forage, fence their fields etc.

2. Ones where people do things differently to what you would like. Not sure a test will help here either, they probably have been told a fair few times and still do things differently than you would like.


There are relatively few horses who suffer long term through pure ignorance. Some may be like that initially but the owners are normally told pretty quickly by others, and the internet is a source of knowledge. Mostly people just ignore what they have been told, so a test would be irrelevant.
 
There is also general ignorance in the situation of non-horsey parents with a teenager, who despite being told by a vet their horse is lame, because they don't see it have decided the horse is fine......
Parents aren't interested and don't want the vet costs...
 
"I think there are 2 main issues.

1. People who don't give a stuff about their horses. A test would not help them, it would not make them buy more forage, fence their fields etc.

2. Ones where people do things differently to what you would like. Not sure a test will help here either, they probably have been told a fair few times and still do things differently than you would like."

Point 2 shows the problem. Just because someone does something differently to what you would like, it does not make them wrong. You would never get people to agree on welfare standards.
 
Whilst wilful ignorance, and different priorities are definitely an issue, there are also people out there buying horses who don't know the first thing about keeping them, putting them on small DIY livery yards and failing to meet basic standards through ignorance. I've seen it happen, and it's miserable to watch. It's not always a short term problem either - on small yards, people keep their views to themselves for fear of getting kicked off, or only intervene with the worst issues, but the horse continues to suffer because the owner just doesn't know what they're doing and thinks that, because the horse hasn't died yet, everything they're doing is fine.

I don't think a test is the answer, but I do think it's disingenuous to suggest that because you haven't seen this problem, it doesn't exist.
 
What JFTD has just described is what I'm talking about. Not deliberate neglect or cruelty - just people buying a large, expensive animal with complex needs who haven't acquired enough knowledge to look after it properly. No offence but some of the threads on here.... horses not getting the veterinary assessment they need for lameness/back issues because the owner just can't see or understand it seems to be a common one for example.
Ignorance isn't really a defence I'm afraid.
 
Nudibranch said:
I think too much is being made of the ridden part. If you want to ride then you should have an independent seat. Clearly someone who drives, or isn't interested in either, doesn't need to be able to. I'm pretty sure I've already said something along the lines of if someone plans to ride their horse....
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the riding part was your suggestion in your first post. Who is going to judge the riding part? Would you need to re do the riding part based on each horse you had? being capable of riding a safe cob is very different from an OTTB. What about those who can naturally ride well but have never had riding school lessons. They may be stuck riding around a school to be tested but could quite happily gallop and jump out in the open countryside and possibly ride far more spirited horses than the tester. How will you judge them?
I'm sure that many road accidents are caused by poor or dangerous driving from licensed car drivers. They passed their test but just do not wish to put into practise what they learnt. Why would a horse license be any different. A license will achieve nothing except further costs to horse owners.
Who is capable of judging the weight of rug on a PSSM horse? Mine has had a 450g on for the last couple of months. Will I fail as he is over rugged by most people's standards or will I pass as he is still supple, his muscles are good, he is not tying up and is capable or sustained work.
 
I've already said I have no idea how a test would be administered. It could be a multiple choice on paper for all I care. The point is to assess a baseline for basic, common sense husbandry and - once again - an independent seat if the person wants to ride. The idea would be to make sure that person can maintain their balance across w,t,c and maybe gallop without hanging on to the horse's mouth, not put Valegro through his paces or take Altior up the gallops. Nor would I expect it to cover every minutiae of care, nor every possible veterinary scenario.

A driving test won't have you carrying out an emergency stop at 70mph on a busy wet motorway in fog. But it will attempt to ensure you have the basic skills in place to deal with that if it arises.
 
paddy555 said:
sorry but to my mind that seems a little pointless and completely impractical.
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Do you dispute that people should be able to answer basic (and I do mean basic) questions about horsecare before buying a horse, or that there are horse owners out there who aren't aware of the basics?

It is impractical, and it shouldn't be necessary, but in principle, I don't see a problem with the idea (the execution is another matter).
 
JFTD said:
Do you dispute that people should be able to answer basic (and I do mean basic) questions about horsecare before buying a horse, or that there are horse owners out there who aren't aware of the basics?

.
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on face value I don't dispute it but being able to answer basic questions is nothing like the reality of owning a horse and I think it is a case that people learn "on the job" once they get a horse. I don't think anything prepares you for it and nothing prepares you for moving from a riding school horse to your own horse kept at home which is your total responsibility.
Things like feeding for example are very diverse. If you ask 50 different people you will get as many different answers and all of them may be correct for their particular horses. If you ask about vaccinating you will get different views, same with shoeing or not shoeing. Same with bedding or stabling or management. None are necessarily right or wrong.

Most people learn once they get a horse, same as with keeping any animal or human babies.
 
I just don't think it's ever acceptable to buy a horse without a basic knowledge - not of the pros and cons of barefoot and shoeing, or worming protocols, but the real basics. If your horse is shivering, we have rugs, and you can buy them online or in person from tack shops. This thing under the saddle? That's a saddle cloth - again, see your local tack shop. I've been in the position of dealing with someone like this - someone who had never heard of a tack shop, or a rug, and asked a friend of mine what it was under her saddle (a standard saddle cloth). Whilst she did learn, to an extent, that horse suffered (and, in many ways, continues to suffer) because of her ignorance. I don't think it's acceptable to learn those sorts of basics "on the job" for any animal, or for children.
 
JFTD said:
I don't think it's acceptable to learn those sorts of basics "on the job" for any animal, or for children.
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Agreed. You can develop or improve your knowledge, finesse your skills etc on the job. But the absolute basics must be in place beforehand imo.

E.g. in the grand scheme of things it matters little if *most* horses get a scoop of pony nuts or a scoop of chaff or a scoop of oats as a bucket feed. The thing that matters is that the vast majority of their ration is made up of forage and they have something to pick at most of the time . The rest is detail, tweaking and generally not a welfare issue.
 
JFTD said:
I just don't think it's ever acceptable to buy a horse without a basic knowledge - not of the pros and cons of barefoot and shoeing, or worming protocols, but the real basics. If your horse is shivering, we have rugs, and you can buy them online or in person from tack shops. This thing under the saddle? That's a saddle cloth - again, see your local tack shop. I've been in the position of dealing with someone like this - someone who had never heard of a tack shop, or a rug, and asked a friend of mine what it was under her saddle (a standard saddle cloth). Whilst she did learn, to an extent, that horse suffered (and, in many ways, continues to suffer) because of her ignorance. I don't think it's acceptable to learn those sorts of basics "on the job" for any animal, or for children.
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I'm not sure I would regard a horse as suffering because someone didn't know what a saddle cloth was. As for shivering there are many that would deliberately let their horses shiver in winter to loose weight. Those who keep their horses"naturally" I'm not saying that is right or wrong. Basic knowledge to me is worming protocols. Now the horse could really suffer if not wormed.
I would suggest that every horse suffers to some extent when it comes into the ownership of people. I suspect there are many on this forum who have let their horses suffer. They didn't do it deliberately, of course they didn't. However they couldn't recognise PPID, they missed PSSM. They didn't have a horse PTS quickly enough, they thought that lameness was minor or colic very mild and the vet was not needed, they made their barefoot horse keep going when it was sore, they didn't shoe their horse often enough, they didn't realise their farrier was making a total mess of the feet or they missed thrush and the horse was sore walking. As for riding well that is an Aladdin's cave. They were too fond of draw reins, tightened the noseband to much, used the wrong size tack/saddle etc etc. Look at some of the heavy handed riding, Rolkur, overfacing horses over fences, under exercising, the list is endless. None of the people doing those sorts of things are beginners, some are very experienced.

Beginners may not know much but I'm sure many learn quickly. As for the saddle cloth is it a necessity? For years I didn't use one. My old Polish saddler hated them. He was ex Polish cavalry. Was he wrong in thinking they had little use?
 
My point, as I think is fairly clear, Paddy, is that you need to know what things are before you can make an educated judgement on whether they're necessary or not. Leaving a horse to shiver intentionally to lose weight is different (and a whole other ethical debate) from leaving a (not fat / poor condition) horse to shiver because you don't know it's cold or that you should do something about it. Choosing not to use a saddlecloth on saddle which is fitted without padding is a perfectly reasonable educated decision - it is not reasonable to not have any concept of one is or how it might be used, when you're plonking an ill-fitting saddle on a horse and expecting to ride it - without a saddler checking the fit, because you don't know these people exist (again, very different from an experienced owner judging the fit of a saddle for themselves). Not knowing what a bridle is called, or how to fit one, but buying one and shoving it on the horse any old how. Not knowing they need to see a farrier (or trimmer) regularly, not knowing that their feet shouldn't look like that, not knowing...

Of course even experienced people miss things, and horses suffer - nobody gets it right all the time. I just don't think that can be equated with people who know LITERALLY nothing, jumping into horse ownership and getting nearly everything wrong. I'm quite surprised that this is a matter for contention - except that it isn't really, because you're creating some nice straw men in your arguments!
 
An interesting debate. When I got my first pony 3 years ago I'd had minimal experience looking after a horse but many years of riding. Count myself as reasonably intelligent and very diligent so quite capable of reading (and did read extensively) about how to look after her. Felt no shame whatsoever in asking those more experienced for advice and more importantly reassurance. My girls (now have 2) are at home so no yard to seek advice from but plenty of willing people around and have some dear friends who are horse owners.

When I decided I wanted to ride them I had some refresher lessons at a local school and found an excellent freelance trainer to help me at home. We backed my youngster together and the strong bond that pony and I have has been remarked upon by my vet and the trainer. Having ANY animal (or a child for that matter) is a huge responsibility which needs to be taken seriously and is by the responsible. My ponies kept me sane when my husband died unexpectedly and really are my life. They want for nothing and have all the love in the world. Both are rescue. I know I don't know everything there is to know (who does?) about horses but I have built up a great network and my ponies are very happy and fulfilled. You have to learn somehow....
 
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