A challenging horse....Nearly killed me! Second opinion?

[HashRouge]

Good replies and responses to my questions, thanks! I'll try and address some of the questions...

Field / routine etc. Part of my frustration is I don't have much control over this. For instance, the nappy behavior while leading in. I may easily solve this by hanging a hay nay at his tying point, so when I fetch him he knows he's got something to look forward to. I'd also have it so that rather than turning him back out, I'd put him to bed as well so he'd get dinner after work. That would reinforce the incentive to come in. As for bossing him about, again that is really unlikely to work. I strongly suspect it's been tried and he's thick skinned. But once or twice when he's put his head down I've coiled the lead rope around his nose and he absolutely hates that and will try and get the rope back down. So I can see his reaction is to fight back, rather than flee like my previous mare would (even the sound of a whip cracking would send her head flying)

Taking to her owner. From past experience, telling people what they should do or not do with their horses goes down like a lead balloon. So I prefer to thread very lightly - essentially my hands are tied. If I tell people what to do with their own horses, that's condescending. If I ask for too much advice, I'm inexperienced. But from the conversations I've had, the answers I've had are largely I don't know...

Tack. Bridle furniture consists of the usual nose band, throat lash plus a running martingale and a straight plastic bit.

Schooling. Initially he was a stubborn and difficult, napping and slowing back into walk. Although he's improved hugely now. It's telling to mention that he's even bolted with me in the school, not fun either! Having said that, I can get him trotting on a great contact with a good outline. Although I've had no luck with canter. He seems unsure of how to make the transition and goes a bit silly when asked. Lunging him might help there.

Ultimately, he's a bit of a neglect case. Not because he doesn't get looked after, he does! But his owner is extremely busy and barely copes, hence sadly he's been on the back burner and is a bit of left in the field bored case. That's the jist of his situation. I've dealt with challenging horses before, my previous share bless her heart was rescued of the travellers. She was an abuse case, primarily abused by men so as you can imagine she wasn't keen on me. In fact on a hack back home, she bronco'ed me off and wasn't stopping until I was off. Fast forward years later, I could hack her bare back, solo for over an hour with complete confidence in walk, (slow trot!) and canter on a happy mouth. What a difference.

So I'm at pain here, I've worked with difficult horses in the past that have become a soul mate to me. Hence I'm reluctant to give up. I just want to think he's a rough diamond. Perhaps I'm just deluded.

If I do go back, I'm actually tempted to tack him up and lead him out with a stick. I suspect he'll be very nappy, but that might be worth a go. I'm not sure if I want to hack him out even in company. May the be bit arrangement but he appears to knows that he can ignore having the bit pulled in his mouth and that's extremely worrying. It's that alone which makes me think this situation is a bit unsalvageable...?

Honestly, I would go and find something easier, certainly for a two day share. I sort of understand your concerns about talking to the owner, but I do think you would benefit from having a frank conversation with her. Explain how he has been for you, ask if he does this with her, and then find out if she has ways of dealing with it. She may have some easy solutions that help a lot, she may not.

I think this horse is more than a rough diamond. He sounds like he could potentially be very dangerous and, as others have said, there is not a lot you can do to "fix" him if you only see him two days a week. I would not be at all keen on leading him out with a stick as an alternative to riding (if I understood your plan correctly). If he behaves similarly to the way he did on your hack you are liable to lose him and/ or get flattened. Not worth the risk!

As for him being left in the field and being bored etc - most horses do not think like this. They like being in the field and don't care if they're ridden or not. I suspect this horse is the same, unless you have noticed him pacing the fence line or standing by the gate all day. Instead, what I suspect you have is a horse who does not benefit from lack of handling. If little has been done with him recently then I suspect he has simply lost his respect for his handlers (if he had any in the first place!) and essentially thinks he can do whatever he likes. Things like tying a hay net at his tying place won't solve this - it may encourage him to come in, but it may also simply lead to him hauling you towards the hay net as soon as he sees it, which isn't exactly a great alternative.

Honestly, either have a frank conversation with the owner and see if she has any suggestions, or find something else. I don't see how you can solve this when you are only doing two days a week.

 

[Damnation]

Firstly, if you want to persevere, the ground manners need to be sorted first and foremost. In my head, I think if they don't respect you on the ground then why should they ridden?

My last mare sounds like your guy. Very opinionated and not scared in the slightest. I had to be quite dominant with her or she would have walked all over me. You have to be firm, consistent, and sometimes there is a battle of wills.

I would be doing alot of groundwork in the school. Asking him to walk when you walk, half when you stop, move his quaters over and away from you etc. Essentually reinforcing the idea that you are in charge, he has to pay attention to you and keep out of "your space". If he doesn't, make him walk backwards. If he plants, turn him around then make him back up in the direction you want to go. With these horses you really need to think outside the box. You want him to respect you and read your body language for what to do next.

Always wear a hat and gloves, and possibly a lunge line incase a strop is thrown.

I'd also be sticking to the arena, if he has bolted with you in there, I wouldn't hack him until you have that cracked. Again, he needs to learn that if you ask to trot, he trots until you say otherwise. Same with canter and walk. I would be getting lessons (with the permission of the owner) to crack this.

You really do need to think outside the box with these horses. They need to learn to respect and to trust you and at the same time you need to find ways of making things awkward and uncomfortable if they don't do as they are told whilst trying to avoid all out confrontation. With horses of this type, you give an inch and he will take 10 miles so you will need to make sure that your approach is consistent.

He also sounds possibly a bit shut down? If he has been on the back burner for a while he probably just needs time to "let you in" as it were.

For me personally, life is too short. I would be putting a time limit on how long you will give the "relationship" to show signs of improvement.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If you insist on continuing with this horse, you must get lessons together with a really good instructor. From your description of how he's been in the school, you were not ready to go out on a solo hack with him. Really you were setting yourself up to fail (untrained, nappy horse that bogs off in the school, then turning on the spot and going home the same way - a massive 'no no' with nappy horses IMO until they are properly retrained). You need to set the horse up to succeed and that's going to require a hell of a lot of correct training.

 

[jemstar]

Has he been checked out physically too? And saddle fit checked? Just wondering if he has something else going on aswell as the behavioural issues...

 

[hc123]

I'm also another that would recommend lots of groundwork. It takes a long time to build up a relationship with a horse and for them to trust you and take confidence from you. All I can say is that you are very brave to have gone on a solo hack on a horse that you have only been sharing a month and only riding twice a week that had bolted with you in the school!

You can liven school work up - mix groundwork with ridden work, introduce pole work, lunge/long rein. The straightness training website is useful for groundwork exercises that will help build up a relationship between you.

Make sure you are completely comfortable in the school before even attempting a hack and then only hack with somebody else.

I'm not one to quickly resort to severe bits but a straight bar plastic bit (as I think you described it) doesn't sound like the ideal bit for hacking if he can get that strong.

 

[travellingpony]

I would want his back checked not wanting to be ridden, struggling to canter could be KS that is behaviour my horse exhibited..

 

[travellingpony]

I would absolutely not be continuing or paying for this two days a week isn't going to sort this out at all it all sounds very dangerous to me.

 

[wingedhorse]

I would absolutely not be continuing or paying for this two days a week isn't going to sort this out at all it all sounds very dangerous to me.

It is likely that whoever last rode this horse has struggled, and has taught him that he can get away with behaving badly and will be put back in his field. It is likely there is a history here, whether behaviour or pain driven.

I have two horses and 3 sharers. I would never expect one of my sharers to do something I didn’t do regularly with one of my horses.
So if the horse wasn’t regularly hacking and I didn’t know would be well behaved and safe to hack, no way would I let a sharer hack alone. I value the safety of my horses and my sharers! And my integrity.

When I have a new sharer, I supervise and accompany them, and make sure they are safe and confident for the first few weeks. I invest in setting the partnership up to succeed.

One of my horses can be tricky to solo hack (I do but don’t let others do so because I don’t want them to take the risk), so my sharers only hack him with another horse.

It sounds like the owner cant ride the horse either, and there are known problems. I think you need to be honest with the owner, and discuss some of your experiences with her.
I doubt she’ll be that surprised. I suspect she’s not been 100% honest with you.

She has hardly set you up for success and supported you.

I do see people looking for sharers when they (the owners) are scared and intimidated by riding and handling their own horse, and it seems fraught with issues IMO.

I also think if you are a reasonably competent rider, there are lots of share horses to choose from, and to form a bond with, and why not chose something else?

 

[abbijay]

WOW! MMM, if you were my sharer I would be livid with this thread.

A horse that is not in constant daily work is hardly a neglect case - just because you might choose a different regime does not make it wrong. Sounds like the horse is being allowed to be a horse!

And you're absolutely right, "telling people what they should do or not do with their horses goes down like a lead balloon." Not one person on this thread has suggested you provide the owner with your solution - they've all told you to ask for the owners solution! The fact you are having problems with this horse but aren't telling the owner about it suggests you are not well suited to this share arrangement.

I would not be handling this horse again without a frank conversation with the owner that currently you can not cope with him and need their help, support and advice to overcome it. If you do not wish to have that conversation and take on board their ideas I would walk away, yesterday.

 

[Ddraig_wen]

Whereabouts are you MMM? This horse sounds exactly like one I was asked to ride last winter. Down to his age, breed, colour and the behavior traits. He tried it a couple of times but we got out of it pretty quickly. He'd been allowed to get away with blue murder previously with another rider.

 

[Red-1]

Good replies and responses to my questions, thanks! I'll try and address some of the questions...

Field / routine etc. Part of my frustration is I don't have much control over this. For instance, the nappy behavior while leading in. I may easily solve this by hanging a hay nay at his tying point, so when I fetch him he knows he's got something to look forward to. I'd also have it so that rather than turning him back out, I'd put him to bed as well so he'd get dinner after work. That would reinforce the incentive to come in. As for bossing him about, again that is really unlikely to work. I strongly suspect it's been tried and he's thick skinned. But once or twice when he's put his head down I've coiled the lead rope around his nose and he absolutely hates that and will try and get the rope back down. So I can see his reaction is to fight back, rather than flee like my previous mare would (even the sound of a whip cracking would send her head flying)

Taking to her owner. From past experience, telling people what they should do or not do with their horses goes down like a lead balloon. So I prefer to thread very lightly - essentially my hands are tied. If I tell people what to do with their own horses, that's condescending. If I ask for too much advice, I'm inexperienced. But from the conversations I've had, the answers I've had are largely I don't know...

Tack. Bridle furniture consists of the usual nose band, throat lash plus a running martingale and a straight plastic bit.

Schooling. Initially he was a stubborn and difficult, napping and slowing back into walk. Although he's improved hugely now. It's telling to mention that he's even bolted with me in the school, not fun either! Having said that, I can get him trotting on a great contact with a good outline. Although I've had no luck with canter. He seems unsure of how to make the transition and goes a bit silly when asked. Lunging him might help there.

Ultimately, he's a bit of a neglect case. Not because he doesn't get looked after, he does! But his owner is extremely busy and barely copes, hence sadly he's been on the back burner and is a bit of left in the field bored case. That's the jist of his situation. I've dealt with challenging horses before, my previous share bless her heart was rescued of the travellers. She was an abuse case, primarily abused by men so as you can imagine she wasn't keen on me. In fact on a hack back home, she bronco'ed me off and wasn't stopping until I was off. Fast forward years later, I could hack her bare back, solo for over an hour with complete confidence in walk, (slow trot!) and canter on a happy mouth. What a difference.

So I'm at pain here, I've worked with difficult horses in the past that have become a soul mate to me. Hence I'm reluctant to give up. I just want to think he's a rough diamond. Perhaps I'm just deluded.

If I do go back, I'm actually tempted to tack him up and lead him out with a stick. I suspect he'll be very nappy, but that might be worth a go. I'm not sure if I want to hack him out even in company. May the be bit arrangement but he appears to knows that he can ignore having the bit pulled in his mouth and that's extremely worrying. It's that alone which makes me think this situation is a bit unsalvageable...?

I stand by my previous comment, you are in grave danger. By teaching him to come in properly people do not mean to hang a net in his stable, they mean to educate him to respect the handler. There are other ways to do this than just beat him, but, as I said in my previous comment, you need serious help.

I agree, we were not saying to tell the owner how to handle her horse, ut to ask for her advice.

I do not like that the horse bogs off with you in the school and then you think it is a good idea to go for a 15 minute hack, and turn round to come home. You keep emphasising how experienced you are, but your text paints a completely different picture.

The essence of the problem is summed up when you say you have not had 'much luck' with canter. It is not a case of luck. It is a case of establishing ground rules, getting correct responses and only moving on when the horse is ready.

I actually hope this is a made up scenario, but if it is not then I would not ride the horse again, or if you do only under the guidance and supervision of a professional, as per my first post.

 

[ester]

Have you actually told the owner what happened? If I were the owner I would want to know and would be cross if I didn't and would want to reassess your suitability as a pairing. If I were the sharer I would go find something else because 2 days a week is not sufficient to solve the problems most of which probably stem from the groundwork anyway and I wouldn't want to be paying to sort out groundwork issues for someone else

Telling the owner is not telling them what to do with their horse it is saying you are having issues and what would they suggest given they own the horse and however busy they are haven't sold it.

 

[Lissie2]

Don't get back on until you know with certainty in all ground situations you are the dominant one. Establish the relationship you want first. Restart like a yearling (to lead, manners, space etc ) to build your relationship from scratch. You will know when you are in charge. There will be no doubt it's obvious. However bad behaviour rooted in pain or fear is totally different and needs different approach. He sounds like a bit of a spoilt brat but that's not his fault - he's an animal. Take it forwards slowly and don't miss and steps out. I wouldn't even school him mounted first. Do it all in hand until he absolutely does what you tell him. Teach him turn on forehand, haunches, shoulder in, decent transitions all from ground. Xxx

 

[AdorableAlice]

Don't get back on until you know with certainty in all ground situations you are the dominant one. Establish the relationship you want first. Restart like a yearling (to lead, manners, space etc ) to build your relationship from scratch. You will know when you are in charge. There will be no doubt it's obvious. However bad behaviour rooted in pain or fear is totally different and needs different approach. He sounds like a bit of a spoilt brat but that's not his fault - he's an animal. Take it forwards slowly and don't miss and steps out. I wouldn't even school him mounted first. Do it all in hand until he absolutely does what you tell him. Teach him turn on forehand, haunches, shoulder in, decent transitions all from ground. Xxx

How many badly broken, uneducated and spoilt teenage heavyweight hunters have you dealt with. Yes it is sound advice but sadly the OP's horse has long passed this stage.

The horse as a foal would have been huge and probably made a fool of, from yearling to 3 year old the handling probably left a lot to be desired. It is as this stage a horse learns his manners if he is lucky enough to be with a good handler. By 4 he would have been well versed in being an ignorant pig and it has escalated from there. I wonder how many homes he has been through and what a pity he has reached 12 without being made into a decent horse.

OP - walk away. What would I do with the horse - I would either bin it or get it into hunt service in the deepest country I could find where it would be so disciplined and tired it would not consider being a rotten bar steward.

 

[Lissie2]

IVe dealt with lots of badly broken and uneducated horses. But you are right she should prob walk away unless she has some help. 10 years ago I loaned a project horse - unrideable and a rearer. She was the only mare I have given up on (mainly because I really felt like serious injury was inevitable. ) There's no shame in handing over to the True professionals but even then new training/habits have to be continued on return to owner or it can deteriorate again.

 

[ester]

Do you think someone could actually make sufficient difference only seeing the horse 2 days a week? There isn't going to be much concistency, unless he is a saint for everyone else and taking he mick out of the OP in which case she needs to ask the yard/owner how to handle him, even if she thinks that makes her look inexperienced

 

[Lissie2]

I guess it would depend on what you were doing and whether anyone else was interfering /undoing your progress. All in all we can say anything but it's really between OP and owner. Xx

 

[Scoti1420]

WOW! MMM, if you were my sharer I would be livid with this thread.

A horse that is not in constant daily work is hardly a neglect case - just because you might choose a different regime does not make it wrong. Sounds like the horse is being allowed to be a horse!

And you're absolutely right, "telling people what they should do or not do with their horses goes down like a lead balloon." Not one person on this thread has suggested you provide the owner with your solution - they've all told you to ask for the owners solution! The fact you are having problems with this horse but aren't telling the owner about it suggests you are not well suited to this share arrangement.

I would not be handling this horse again without a frank conversation with the owner that currently you can not cope with him and need their help, support and advice to overcome it. If you do not wish to have that conversation and take on board their ideas I would walk away, yesterday.

This 100%. It sounds like you haven't told the owner the things that have happened yet....this is not your horse and you need to speak to the owner. For all you know, the horse doesn't even behave this way with them!

 

[Clare85]

OP, I'm afraid it will pretty much impossible to turn this horse's behaviour around whilst only doing him 2 days per week. Horses like this need consistent, firm handling/riding on a daily basis. As a sharer, it is not your job to reschool him. From what you've said, it sounds like you are the only one riding him. Making assumptions here, but could it be that his owner has lost her confidence with him and is relying on sharers to deal with him? What did she say when you told her what had happened on your hack?

Personally, I would walk away, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Lissie2]

In fact I wish I hadn't made a comment because really all OP should do is get off H & H forum and talk to owner.

 

[madlady]

If you want to persevere then talk to the owner. Personally I'd walk away.

Have you seen how the horse is with the owner? Does he show the same behaviours?

My mare is a decent steady hack but even she would get a bit excited if I only took her on a short hack and turned her for home. Granted though she wouldn't take it as permission to bog off with someone though.

 

[SEL]

MMM - my friends horse bolted with me when spooked by motorbikes. It was a true bolt in that his flight response kicked in - bridging reins did nothing & not a chance of getting him on a circle. I am an experienced rider & I've had horse run away with me before, but this was different.

He very nearly went through a post & rail fence, but at the last minute swerved. The girth snapped and I came off under his legs.

I lost all feeling in my legs for 10minutes and couldn't move. It was terrifying. The damage to my back still flares up. My jods were torn and I took all the skin off down one side of me.

I count myself as very lucky. I have never chosen to get on a horse that knowingly runs away since - why would I? Life is too short. Bills need to be paid.

Whatever you decide to do - stay safe.

 

[SusannaF]

He sounds like he needs careful handling and retraining from a sensitive professional who looks after him fulltime.

Others say it's safest not to ride him but you still probably need to get him in from the field even if you're not exercising him. My only random tip for dealing with horses that plant when being led in is to give them a good scritch on the withers on their sweet spot. Might not work for all but I've found it distracts some of them without turning things into battle royal or requiring treats or a stick.

 

[Antw23uk]

I'm amazed you havent talked to the owner about this. If you were my sharer and having issues i would be really angry you hadnt discussed them with me. I dont think you realise just how dangerous and deadly this bolting incident could have been!

 

[Shadowdancing]

Absolutely would not ride it and if it was my horse and you were sharing her I wouldn't want you to either! It would be completely irresponsible and I would regard it as too high a risk to both you and my horse.

That said I'd be getting the vet, saddler and farrier out immediately to do a full MOT head to toe as even when scared to death she's never run off more than a few strides with anyone, and I wouldn't say she's the most mild mannered animal you'd meet, she's just not that way inclined!

Previous posters are correct- you have to speak to the owner and ask some questions. Has this horse done this with the owner, how does it react when the owner rides it, and are you completely certain that you're not being used as a crash test dummy of sorts because others have given up?

I have actually seen someone advertising for a sharer to pay THEM to ride and school their REARER, so it does happen.

And make no mistake this could have been very, very serious. If you'd ran out in front of a car going any kind of speed, the horse would have been taken off his legs, and he, you, and probably everyone in the car would have died. You were very lucky.

 

[Peter7917]

I would absolutely NOT be getting back on this horse.

I also think it's irresponsible not to make the owner aware. She could let anybody have a go on that horse; somebody could be seriously injured.

 

[blitznbobs]

To me his behaviour doesn't sound particularly shocking or dangerous, just that perhaps the OP is a bit overhorsed.

Whilst I agree that this horse doesn't sound dangerous per se the combination of an arrogant horse and a too kind rider ( rather than a determined fair horse man/ woman ) is about the most dangerous combination you can get.

Some of these threads illustrate this... Some of us on this forum would get on a 'rearer' without a second thought some would think that this is way too dangerous... I don't think of my mare as dangerous but she puts in the odd rear in a temper tantrum ... Would I warn people yes... Is she dangerous for an experienced rider, no.

 

[applecart14]

My friend who was looking at buying a horse to replace her horse who was pts several months ago went to try a number of different horses from all around the country. One horse she went to see seemed just right. As is normal she asked the owner to get on him and ride him for her to watch how he moved. No sooner had the woman put her foot in the stirrup and the horse went over backwards requiring an emergency ambulance, the woman knocked unconscious and a long stay in hospital with breaks.

Another horse she went so far as buying only to find after a week it decked her twice, going from walking on a long rein to flat out bolt in the space of .1 of a second. The first time she came off she gave it the benefit of the doubt, the second time she wasn't so lucky and ended up with quite nasty injuries which she is still recovering from some six months or so later.

 

[Orangehorse]

Whilst I agree that this horse doesn't sound dangerous per se the combination of an arrogant horse and a too kind rider ( rather than a determined fair horse man/ woman ) is about the most dangerous combination you can get.

Well I absolutely agree with everyone else about not getting on this horse again.

OP, you have succeeded with other horses, but this horse is a thug and needs to find that the human is in charge. Remember one very good piece of advice - the boss horse is the one who moves the others' feet. So he is calmly eating grass while you are on the end of the lead rope waiting for him to finish, so he is plainly the boss horse. He doesn't need a haynet to come into, he needs teaching that when you lead him, he behaves. Now, this might mean a loud signal, and I don't mean hitting him, that will just make him cross.

This needs a discussion with the owner, he doesn't sound like a suitable horse for you.

Having talked with horse behaviourists, they say that often the worst behaved will improve quickly and dramatically as often what they want is for someone to take charge of them and show THEM where to put their feet, instead of having to take charge themselves.

 

[atropa]

Whilst I agree that this horse doesn't sound dangerous per se the combination of an arrogant horse and a too kind rider ( rather than a determined fair horse man/ woman ) is about the most dangerous combination you can get.

Some of these threads illustrate this... Some of us on this forum would get on a 'rearer' without a second thought some would think that this is way too dangerous... I don't think of my mare as dangerous but she puts in the odd rear in a temper tantrum ... Would I warn people yes... Is she dangerous for an experienced rider, no.

Very true Blitznbobs, it's all relative to the rider/handlers experience and I agree that the situation overall is dangerous.