A little tale I heard today...

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Anyone suggesting that they would not be surprised at Kelly using such equipment on horses should understand how she works before insinuating that she may be anything other than for the good of the horse on a public website.


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You're shooting yourself in the foot here "Truth". No doubt you came across here due to the thread being posted on the IHDG, read Kelly's name mentioned in my earlier reply and leapt to the conclusion that something nasty was being said about her. On the contrary, I said that if there had been anything untoward at a recent NH demo then Kelly's IHDG would have been sure to have heard about it! Now all you've done is lead people to wonder if Kelly is the person refered to in the original post here, which she patently isn't.
So have we got it straight now?
Richard Maxwell uses a simple rope halter that has a pressure action due to the rope passing through a loop on the side of the noseband.
Kelly Marks uses a Dually, which has a pressure action resulting from the extra loop of rope over the nose, which passes through metal rings.
And a Be Nice (or Be Nasty) used to be used by Kelly a long time ago, but no longer, and is a pressure release contraption that utilises metal studs at various areas on the horse's head.
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And... we still have no facts about this supposed incident at what somebody has said was an "NH demo". So we have nothing to prove it was supposed to be an NH demo, nothing to prove who the trainer was, and nothing about where and when it happened.
Forgive me for being a bit sceptical, but if this did indeed happen then it would be being discussed pretty widely by now I'm sure, and there would be nothing to stop anyone sharing the details here.
 
Aha! Now I see someone further down refering to an above mentioned person - ie Kelly Marks. Kelly Marks doesn't use anything but the Dually halter, so as I've said this supposed incident patently wouldn't have involved her.
Actually, I think that all this thread is doing is give an excuse for people to have another pop at NH trainers, I can't understand why people are willing to believe that this happened at a demo when there is no information to support it at all.
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FYI i have a be nice halter. in the right hands this is a useful piece of kit, i have a strong, sometimes stroppy cob, and this reminds her of her manners, due to past experiences - with her twat of a previous owner - she had learned to use her strength against you when being loaded, this was downright bloody dangerous, and a few sessions in the be nice put her right, IMO it was better than a chifney.....the studs are rounded and very smooth, so i can't see a problem, if she acts like an arse it hurts - FACT - i would rather this than 1/2 a ton of cob trampling people.......
 
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FYI i have a be nice halter. in the right hands this is a useful piece of kit, i have a strong, sometimes stroppy cob, and this reminds her of her manners, due to past experiences - with her twat of a previous owner - she had learned to use her strength against you when being loaded, this was downright bloody dangerous, and a few sessions in the be nice put her right, IMO it was better than a chifney.....the studs are rounded and very smooth, so i can't see a problem, if she acts like an arse it hurts - FACT - i would rather this than 1/2 a ton of cob trampling people.......

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I have one too. When Star started rearing with excitement going out to the field I thought about a chifney, but decided to go with a be nice as a first stop. The first day I used it she started to go up and thought better of it. I used it for two weeks just to make sure and she has never attempted to rear again. Now she is back in a normal headcollar with no problems.
 
Speaking as someone who uses both the Dually halter, and Richard Maxwell's halter, I can categorically state that there are no spikes or studs or anything dodgy about these pieces of equipment whatsoever.

However, it must be recognised that any piece of equipment can be dodgy of used in the wrong way.

I think that if OP is not prepared to say who these allegations are made against then they should refrain from posting. All this speculation is hearsay, and may unfairly prejudice people against honest, skilled and professional horsemen and women.

Or maybe they know that these allegations are unfounded, and are just poo stirring because they have nothing better to do!
 
Your right, tinypony, I have come on here to defend Kelly and the equipment she uses. Given that we now know that the evidence of the studs on the Dually comes from someone who saw one at a boot sale I'm not surprised the information is wrong. Sorry lenehorse but get your facts straight.

As you say, tinypony, this alleged incident couldn't be Kelly but even wrong insinuations can still stick in the mind of those who don't know better so I felt it necessary to put the record straight for someone who is a better horseperson and person in general than many you meet.
 
I agree, a Be Nice can be a useful bit of kit, when used correctly. In my experience they are best used sparingly because in some cases they can actually cause horses to rear. I'm guessing that some are more sensitive than others to the discomfort caused by the studs over the poll. I'm not sure which I'd prefer, a Be Nice or a chifney - with one the risk of rearing, with the other bruised gums and damaged teeth.
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I've always managed difficult horses with a normal (not pressure) rope halter and a longer than usual lead rope, recognising that a rope halter will cause some discomfort if a horse tries to pull against it.
I really came back here to find out if there were any facts emerged...
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truth/stybba I really wish you wouldn't come over and fuel things like this on by mentioning names, again. There were no names, no people mentioned in the first post and the OP said that she thought it would come out fairly soon anyway.

Things like this are annoying:

http://ihdg.proboards91.com/index.cgi?board=talk2&action=display&thread=1196364621

It's been done in the past too, on a number of occasions. No one is saying threat and open debate across forums isn't allowed, but slating HHO isn't really on, is it?

Sorry to whoever is 'dressagequeen' but I don't actually see Kelly Marks mentioned in relation to this incident? Or did I miss the post?
 
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I don't actually see Kelly Marks mentioned in relation to this incident? Or did I miss the post?

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I am not 'dressagequeen', I only have one name, and use it wherever I go! But I am happy to post under my name on either board, and give my honest opinion.

You do need to read back through the thread carefully - but yes, a suggestion of accusation was made. Not a direct 'it was her' but a roundabout suggestion that it probably was, and it wasn't a surprise to that poster, which does (to me) give the suggestion that the poster knows something we don't. As I said openly on IH, and will say openly here, I do feel one or two people are treading on the edge of libel/slander - whichever one is the written version - I always forget!
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There seems to have been a lot of threads recently which are raking up gossip & rumour, without any actual proof, on just pure hearsay. I do wish that firstly people would check their facts before posting things which could damage peoples reputations & businesses, and secondly that if people did have a problem with something someone says/does, that they would tell them directly or take some other official direct action rather than gossip about it on a message board.
 
So rather than hit the 'report to moderator' button, PMing the member, or asking admin if it is libel/slander you posted it on another forum instead, getting even more people involved? I don't really see how that solves your initial problem, but instead I feel it just fuels it further, inviting more people to gossip and rumour.

I imagine that the person who posted that said it simply because that NH person is very prominent, and one of the first ones you think of when you say 'female NH person'. I certainly can't think of any others, but then I don't follow NH. The person in question did not mention names, nor did they allude to the fact that they may have any information. The phase "I'm guessing" in their post gives that away surely.
 
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......... because in some cases they can actually cause horses to rear.

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Yes, this has been my experience too. We have two sorts on the yard - one with little ridges on the poll (is that the Be Nice one??) and one that is just what I would call a controller headcoller.

I much prefer the controller one - and use it to bring my horse in the from the field (does stop him from p*ss*ng off). However the other one has caused horses to go up - so I don't touch it any more.
 
Is that aimed at me Snowhawk?

Yes, you're probably right, whoever you're talking to (and any other number of readers of this thread) should have pm'd a mod or reported the post. Must admit, it didn't occur to me - firstly if a public accusation is made, I personally like a public rebuttal. Secondly I'm usually posting on here with half a dozen other things going on at the same time - I'm lucky if I can remember my own name, let alone correct forum procedure!
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is this like an 'urban legend' or something? i hope so!



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I think this could well be just a malicious rumour. Certainly no-one has given any names, dates or anything that looks like evidence, let alone proof.

It can't possibly be about Kelly, though. I know her and she is a completely genuine person, who would never use cruel methods.

Probably what happened, if anything happened, was that an 'NH' trainer - or someone claiming to be 'NH' - used a Be Nice halter (a perfectly acceptable device in the right hands)and this has got blown up and Chinese-whispered by the rumour-mill into 'cruel spikes'.

Such exaggerations happen all the time. A Be Nice halter becomes an instrument of torture. Here, I'll start one: did you know that there are people who put metal bars into horses' mouths in order to control them! Imagine, hard cold metal jerking and banging on the softest and most vulnerable part of a horse's anatomy! Isn't that cruel! Poor horse!

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QR.
I am not naming names so dont press me - I am not stupid!
I was told by a girl, who was told directly by the vet who discovered this, so I posted in the belief that it is true.
I would imagine this vet to know the difference between every control technique under the sun, and I thought others may be interested to know what he found.
Everyone on here knows I am not one for meaningless chit chat, and I fully expect this to explode into the public arena soon.
 
With all respect vicijp - while you may not personally be generally one for 'meaningless chit chat', don't you think that at this point, this could be regarded as no more than chinese whispers? You were not there when the vet examined the horse - you weren't even told directly by the vet! You were told by a friend who was told by the vet who was there - a bit of a tenuous link to start running with, surely?

If this has truly happened as you have reported it with whoever the trainer may be, then I hope it does come into the public arena - but until such time, while it's all speculation, and no definite facts given, perhaps it's a rather unwise discussion point?

Otherwise we're being asked to discuss an unknown demo horse, at an unknown demo, with an unknown trainer, an unknown vet, reported by an unknown person who had a discussion with that unknown vet, which was then reported by a person who to most people is an unknown person on a message board!!!

No wonder people are starting to comment on things & getting the wrong end of the stick.
 
"Otherwise we're being asked to discuss an unknown demo horse, at an unknown demo, with an unknown trainer, an unknown vet, reported by an unknown person who had a discussion with that unknown vet, which was then reported by a person who to most people is an unknown person on a message board!!! "
Very well said !
Caroline
 
Yep absolutely right, I just don't believe this to be honest. At a demo there will have been a number of people, if a vet stepped in to examine the horse and equipment these people would have seen it... and have been gossiping about it all over the Net by now.
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The thing is - if this HAD happened then it wouldn't be slander to discuss it on the Net giving the full info, because you would be stating facts that were known and undeniably true. IE "An NH trainer called XYZ was giving a demo in Hereford, the horse appeared to be distressed so a vet asked to examine the horse and discovered they were using a halter that had metal spikes on the inside and halted the demo". If there had been actual cruelty to the animal then no doubt the vet would also have been getting the RSPCA involved.
Just to say, only one person said they thought this trainer might have been Kelly Marks, a lot of other people pretty much said that was not going to be the case. Kelly is seldom refered to as an NH trainer by the way, so if this incident had happened there is nothing in the original post that remotely suggests it would have been her. There are a lot of women in the UK claiming to be NH trainers however! So I don't think any damage is being done to Kelly here, rather the reverse as people are giving details of how she works to prove she wouldn't dream of doing something like that.
As I said before, I think this is just another excuse to say negative things about NH.
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I don't understand why sometimes NH people seem completely blinkered when it comes to their beliefs.

Yes, names have not been named but vicjip is not the kind of person to pass on information that is unreliable.

Is it really such a stretch of imagination to believe that *shock horror* a NH instructor might actually be somewhat corrupt?

I'm a fan and supporter of showjumping and eventing, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant to the fact that even some top names do some really horrible things to horses behind the scenes. These things can happen easily without it becoming public knowledge, or the RSPCA being called - just because not everyone knows about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
Seems douubtful! If it were true then it would be public knowledge by now! Plus any normal horse would be more likely to throw a flid and run backwards with pressure applied by 'spikes', i cant see how it would be any different than using a very severe bit in the same manor- surely the horse would back off the pressure at substantial speed!
 
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I don't understand why sometimes NH people seem completely blinkered when it comes to their beliefs.

Yes, names have not been named but vicjip is not the kind of person to pass on information that is unreliable.

Is it really such a stretch of imagination to believe that *shock horror* a NH instructor might actually be somewhat corrupt?

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First off, I wouldn't label myself as NH. I'm open to some NH stuff, but not all by a damn long shot.

For me personally, I couldn't give a blind monkeys whether this was about an NH trainer, a BHS trainer, a classical trainer - or any other trainer come to that - take your pick!

Can NH instructors be corrupt? Of course they can. Being NH doesn't make them perfect, it makes them human beings who just happen to follow a particular training method/ethos. I personally can name several NH trainers whom I would allow near my horses over my dead body. I don't know that I'd like to call them corrupt as such, but I think their training methods suck, and that some of it is bordering on cruel - in some cases actually is cruel.
 
zigzag - having stated I'm not an NH person, in the past I've been around Kelly a bit, and I do go on her DG - are you absolutely certain you mean Kelly? Kelly campaigns to educate people against the use of the whip - I've never seen her with one in her hands let alone seen her use one, badly or otherwise. She even markets the wipwop which is a soft rope alternative to the whip to encourage horses to go forwards. What you are stating doesn't sound in the least likely to be Kelly.
 
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I've seen kelly marks at work and I certainly wouldn't let her near one of my horses... she was rather handy with a whip

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I can only speak as I find, but when I went to a KM demo (somewhere in Wales a couple of years ago) I didn't see a whip anywhere in sight for the entire session.
 
Possibly the point was to "make" the horse rear so he/she could "miraculously" cure it by taking the thing off?
 
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Is it really such a stretch of imagination to believe that *shock horror* a NH instructor might actually be somewhat corrupt?


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Corrupt - no, but I think it unlikely that they would be stupid - stupid enough to use a gadget a vet would consider cruel at a public demo.
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I use a lot of NH, but I'm not blinkered, I have learnt to be quite selective about the people I work with. I don't see how it's blinkered to question a completely unsubstantiated tale like this though, and I think if a similar tale was put up about an "eventer" for example many people would have exactly the same reaction.
I'm not a Kelly Marks fan by the way, she does not work in a way that I am comfortable with. But use a whip?? After all she's said and written that is anti-whips? I think that rather unlikely. I could see her maybe waving objects such as sticks and whips about if she was desensitising a horse possibly.
I'm assuming that it was a very small crowd at this demo as we still haven't heard anything about this incident elsewhere. Still, "Is it Natural to be Cruel?" will surely be a headline in some publication soon if it did happen.
 
I am not blinkered either and certainly have very open eyes when it comes to any sport involving horses or the handling and training of such animals.
I suppose my only other question is that if there were people that the OP thought would appreciate the said information why not just pm those people who it was thought may appreciate it rather than post openly and publicly?
A honest and fair question in my opinion and I am sure there are others reading this thread who may have also thought the same as I.
Caroline
 
Am not suprised at all there is another rumour on the rumour mill, lets see NH this week, SJ is also in the limelight for alleged abuse to horses through so called "substances" being put on their legs, oh yes and lets not forget racing that is in the limelight each week for abuse. Countless horses going on the racetrack to their death, through greedy owners, trainers for the sake of sport!!!!!!

So we know with two well known horses in NH dying ban NH racing, stop SJ as all SJ abuse their horses by sensitising their legs, stop dressage as all dressage horses are stabled 24/7, ban eventing as riders keep dying, oh and as for hacking on roads, cruel beyond belief as so many get hit by cars!!!! Be real you are gossipping to make a story seem glamourous before any proof, vet etc or true factual evidence is given, if said vet will even admit to his comment (as few do, so many back down in racing when pushed for a real comment to why a horse died).

Give us facts and proof, not gossip and hearsay, am very suprised that a person in a well known sport that fights against hearsay and gossip for horse abuse would start such a rumour, but hey ho the hatred for NH methods must mean that they are for the whip, spur and beating a horse or have them shot for rearing, bucking or not "obeying" their rider, being lame past and "acceptable time limit" as the owners need to ride and compete and state it is in the horses bet interest as they cannot cope with box rest, time off work etc putting human feelings on a horse do not account to the horsesmind or wellbeing to recover, they are horses and do not look at a clock or calendar knowing how long time has passed only that they are fed, watered and looked after, but owners feel that shot it at 6 weeks it is too long, the horses does not know 6 weeks to 6 days. What do YOU define as NH. Common horse sense or a need to dominate and decide what your horse needs without looking at the whole picture before you?

Live and let live until actual "proof" is proved then and only then will people listen, to me you have just proved your ignorance and pasted on melicious gossip at the very least. Why to cause trouble, when you yourself are involved in the most controversial sport of all of horse sports. Give us proper facts but I guess you cant do that.

Gobsmacked another so called professional would taint the careers of others, next it will be your turn, then who do we believe on this big rumour mill.

Maybe just maybe if you opened your eyes you will see that not all other ways are wrong and there is good and bad in all methods, nobody is right or wrong in training of horses, they teach us themselves but you have to want to learn to gain knowledge.
 
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