A musing from a grumpy old git.

[PaddyMonty]

I'm wondering if people set their expectations and goals far too low these days and why.
My last horse went from having done one intro (not with me) to a top 10 placing at BD regionals in 6 months.
Current horse 8 weeks ago was bent like a banana, charged her fences and nose dived over them generally taking the poles with her. Now I would most likely get her round a BE90 without disgracing ourselves too badly.
Now I dont consider myself a talented and gifted rider. I seen some of those and that aint me but I set and expectation of the horse and then work dam hard to achieve it. Next season we will be starting eventing. Plan is to skip BE80 and go straight in at BE90 with a view t be doing BE100 mid season. Perfectly reasonable to my way of thinking.

On the flip side I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon. Taking years just to jump 70cm. Stick at the same level eventing all season, think getting over the last fence SJ is an achievement even if 6 poles have gone down during the round.

Why?

Is it a lack of rider confidence, are instructors not pushing their pupils anymore, is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success lowering expectations or do people just not want to put the effort in anymore? Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort? I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty.

Would be interested in how others think / feel about this.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

I don't think the equestrian world churns out brave riders anymore, and everyone always gives everyone praise for the slightest little things that people are happy with okay, and don't strive for any better now! A lot of riders I see these days are very windy, blame everything on the horse etc. We just don't have brave riders that will go fast and turn tight in jump offs and take a few strides out! They are few and far between anyway.

 

[LadySam]

May I ask Mr Git - how much time do you have to work with your horse? Not having a go, just wondering. The impression I get from a lot of people is that they are juggling busy lives, full time jobs etc with horsey life, so the time they have for training and making that training stick is limited. So, if you have more time, perhaps what you can achieve in 6 months would by necessity take others longer. (Just a thought, for all I know your life outside of horses is just as busy as anyone else's.)

One thing I do notice about the way to talk is that you have a definite goal and a definite plan for how to achieve it. I wonder how many people actually have that, instead of floating along until something feels right/different/the fates intervene. Maybe that's part of it, I don't know.

 

[Horsemad12]

Lots of reasons

1. Quality of horse in first place
2. Attitude of horse
3. Previous history of horse
4. Availability of transport
5. Money
6. Experience
7. Confidence
8. Desire


I could go on and on.

Well done for your achievements but I have seen riders crushed by people criticizing their goals and ambitions because they were below theirs. Each to their own and let us all enjoy our horses.

Sorry, but feel very strongly about this!

 

[PaddyMonty]

I have a full time job working around 60 hours a week. Generally ride 5 times a week but each of those will be a schooling session (flat or SJ) followed by a hack of around 1 hour. Those times I dont school then I will hack for 2 to 3 hours.
PS also married with two kids and help wife (also has high level stressy job) with her two horses as well.
I dont think it's so much about time available as how you use that time.

 

[Tapir]

I agree. I have friends who have had their horses years, have very regular lessons (as least once a week) and are still doing unaffiliated prelim dressage. I know that both horses and riders are perfectly capable of doing all the elementary test movements. I think that they'd rather be placed at prelim than move up a level and not get a rosette.

 

[milliepops]

I'm firmly in your mindset PM and probably with a similar amount of drive and expectations. Some people just don't feel the need nor want to push themselves any harder or higher, so there's a danger here of assuming everyone wants the same things. That said...

I'm on a yard of (lovely) happy hackers - I really don't mean to talk them down as they are a lovely group who care for their horses fabulously and it's the happiest yard I've ever been on.
but they lack a combination of self confidence and knowledge, but also ambition IMVHO I'm the one in the school before work day after relentless day, riding in all weathers, in the dark, when I'm tired, when the horseflies are buzzing... they prioritise their family life and comfort more highly than I do! This is not being unkind, I want success more than they do (god knows I lack the horsepower but have a massively high work ethic! :lol, they want a family life more than I do, it's about priorities.

BUT I also have doubts about their tuition- One of the other liveries mentioned that a particular backward thinking, kickalong horse was just that and couldn't be improved and the instructor agreed - if I had any personal influence in that situation it would be taught to go forward smartly and life would be easier for everyone involved with that horse... it's not complicated, but it would require self discipline and lots of effort to start with.

I know I've found it easier to aim high and achieve more with subsequent horses, having clambered and stumbled my way up the levels with one horse. I know how to make progress faster by being more rigorous in training and picking up on small faults that would hamper progress. It's hard to do that on the first horse because you are still finding out what 'correct' feels like, so I expect a lack of experience plays a huge part.
You know if someone asks for help on something and you sit on their horse, and it's unbalanced, uneducated and generally not a very pleasant ride in comparison to something schooled? If people never ride that schooled horse, they never know what they are missing, and what a pleasure it could be with an injection of effort, and therefore going up the levels can seem like something forever out of reach.

 

[milliepops]

Well done for your achievements but I have seen riders crushed by people criticizing their goals and ambitions because they were below theirs. Each to their own and let us all enjoy our horses.

Sorry, but feel very strongly about this!

wholeheartedly agree about it being each to their own. No one need to go out and prove anything at all, it's just a hobby for virtually all of us.
But I personally see people who are not feeling empowered and able to strive any higher by the same measure. Being held back. There are people around being done a disservice by their instructors/trainers (I used to be such a person until I swapped to a different trainer) and not being encouraged to stretch themselves or aim a little higher. A good trainer will inspire their pupil to feel that they could achieve more *if they want to*.

I don't think quality of horse,your first point, needs to be something that holds people back, if they want to achieve more. You can go a long way with good training and effort. That's the thing I feel very strongly about

 

[Casey76]

Well, I have to say that my instructor hammers me She is adamant that I go out and compete this season (in France that starts on 01 Sep), but I mustn't embarrass her, so while we really concentrated on all of the basics (suppleness, bend, lateral and horizontal flexion etc) for the past 6 months, we are nor really focusing on ring craft. The amount of times last night I heard "no! again!" the beast was making me practice medium trot in sitting (where rising is perfectly acceptable, and even marked in the directives).

I love her. She always pushes me just out of my comfort zone to get the best, and always has great exercises to spark up my own schooling.

Unfortunately lack of transport is going to be a hindrance, as I can't afford to hire a box for the weekend (280&#8364 just for a test or two...

 

[chestnut cob]

So many factors. Some people are nervous and have no self belief. Some have rubbish tuition and never really get very far. Some simply have no interest in being very competitive. Others have horses who are limited maybe due to slight soundness issues, undiagnosed grumbling problems that the owners don't pick up on so they just potter around doing 60cm SJ courses forever. Some horses have a bad attitude and are ungenerous, yet people insist on persevering with them because they are sentimental. Some people don't have a lot of cash and so insist on "learning" by only going to competitions instead of investing in really good training. For others it's lack of transport. Many reasons.

I think MP makes a good point - until you sit on a really nice horse with a good attitude, you never know what you're missing so people persevere with horses that give back very little.

I am like you in a way PM in that I like to have goals. I like my training to have goals, I like to know and understand what I'm working towards and how to achieve it. For various reasons, my horse has been confined to hacking, flatwork and poles this year but I couldn't stand "just" hacking and having lessons. I've joined BD to give myself something to aim for because I can track my progression.
However, I loved eventing but stopped mainly because of time and money. I work away in Europe reasonably often now and I just don't have the time to put into the training and top-up competitions I needed to do in between events. I also couldn't guarantee I could jump often enough each week to keep my eye in so I felt that for now, eventing was not a sport I wanted to pursue. My horse has plenty of ability to be doing 100s but TBH even if I went out now and did a 90cm HT, I'd be happy with that and currently have no interest in going any higher because I can't put the work in to make it happen at the moment.

 

[milliepops]

Well, I have to say that my instructor hammers me She is adamant that I go out and compete this season (in France that starts on 01 Sep), but I mustn't embarrass her, so while we really concentrated on all of the basics (suppleness, bend, lateral and horizontal flexion etc) for the past 6 months, we are nor really focusing on ring craft. The amount of times last night I heard "no! again!" the beast was making me practice medium trot in sitting (where rising is perfectly acceptable, and even marked in the directives).

I love her. She always pushes me just out of my comfort zone to get the best, and always has great exercises to spark up my own schooling.

I love the sound of this. You're clearly the right kind of client for her though, soaking it up rather than feeling overwhelmed

The more I think about it, I think the training (or lack of) has a huge part in this - there are loads of people having regular training with local instructors but never getting the moment of inspiration that shows them what the future could be.. makes me feel so sad. What's the point in doing the same lesson over and over again? waste of time and money.
I've had a few truly life changing lessons which I'll never forget, and which transformed my horsey goals forever. I'd never accept limiting training ever again.

 

[PaddyMonty]

If people never ride that schooled horse, they never know what they are missing, and what a pleasure it could be with an injection of effort, and therefore going up the levels can seem like something forever out of reach.

That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.

 

[stencilface]

I hung around with eventers for a while whilst grooming for a friend. It may be prevalent everywhere, but I've never heard so many excuses in my life! And this is people competing at 1* and above. Nothing was ever their fault, it was always the ground, the light, the way the leaves blew just so. Grr it drove me nuts!

My ambition is fairly limited these days, but this is a temporary thing, although having lessons with a great instructor I'm now hopefully ironing out basic issues that have probably been there for years and haven't been spotted by a variety of professionals. Fingers crossed I'll have a straight and sound horse by the end! I find not knowing yourself and also not finding good instructors the worst vicious circle, how do you know what's right? It's a constant learning curve.

Just today a new vet turned what is normally a very stressful vaccination day with a opinionated mule completely stress free, my mind is blown! And we've had horses for nearly 30 years, despite the Internet etc there's still an awful amount of witchcraft and fumbling in the dark with horses

 

[Auslander]

I think riding is far more of a leisure activity nowadays, where 20 years ago, only people who had a plan rode, whether that plan was to event, do dressage, hunt, or whatever. I don't have an issue with people who are content to remain within their comfort zone, and to do what they've always done, rather than striving to improve themselves/their horses. I don't think it's for anyone else to say what someone "should" be trying to achieve. It's a personal choice, and that's fine.
I have a very nice horse, and hypothetically, I am capable enough (and he is more than capable of) going out competing at PSG level. We don't, because he's already more than proved himself, and deserves an easy semi-retirement, and I couldn't be less interested in competing. We mostly hack about on the buckle, and occasionally have a play in the school. I don't try and improve him, and he doesn't work at anything like the level he used to - but I'm happy, and he's happy. Win Win...

 

[chestnut cob]

That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.

Do you think a major part of this is the instruction/ training that people receive?

I was always told my horse simply "doesn't like dressage but it's OK because he's great XC and SJ so you'll make back up your marks that way". It wasn't until I switched to a pro DR rider that I had a complete epiphany and realised that with the right training, instruction and psychology, actually we can do a seriously good DR test, that a horse who "doesn't like DR" can learn to enjoy it with the right training, and that actually it's not just something to be endured so you can do the fun XC bit.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I don't think quality of horse,your first point, needs to be something that holds people back, if they want to achieve more. You can go a long way with good training and effort. That's the thing I feel very strongly about

Agreed. I've just about to start teaching someone. Pure accident. I was watching her schooling whilst I nattered to mum and asked who here instructor was. The answer told me all I needed to know. Made a few suggestion to the young lady and she was astonded at how easily her horse did what she was struggling with. She also said her horse is very behind the leg (it is) but that's just him. No way, will cure that problem in first lesson.
I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Some people are nervous and have no self belief.

I'm seeing more and more nervous riders these days. Why is this?

 

[AdorableAlice]

At last an interesting thread. I fit in both camps. One of mine went from unshown to HOY's and well placed in a space of 12 months and to BD nationals in the same year. Why - two of us producing and I had more time, the horse had an amazing brain, work ethic and was one of those rare types that finds anything and everything easy.

My two youngsters that I have reared from foals (bred one of them) are now 5. The one I thought would be useless and was sent to specialist breakers has done well but due to temperament problems he has been taken excessively slowly and has just started prelim. He stuck at intro all winter, winning plenty of them but being an extremely anxious horse it was a case of repeat the dose until he found the travelling etc boring. Time limited his work too.

The filly was so immature she was broken and ridden away late 2015, came back into work this spring progressing very quickly but was then plagued with injury and set backs, plus being small I was limited on a rider for her. She would easily be competing now had she not been a 'started, farted, slipped up and fell' creature.

The question has so many answers as detailed in other comments. Desire to succeed would be high on the list I think and as I age I certainly do not have the drive anymore and have now got to the stage I would not keep a horse that needed to be ridden every day to keep it sane and safe.

 

[ihatework]

While I'm of your mindset PM, I do think horse riding and low level competing is becoming so accessible that it is just a hobby for many and these people just have a different view on what they wish to achieve.

It is very easy to be casually dismissive of the very low levels, potentially to the hurt/detriment of those that are just happy to be bumbling along enjoying themselves.
Live and let live I say.

What I have no time for is those in the above category that whinge and whine about pothunters and unfairness of rules. Either accept and be content to potter about or put in the effort to be good!

 

[milliepops]

That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.

Well I thought it was interesting that the 4th post on your thread opened with 'quality of horse'

As already said I absolutely support people's right to not want to do anything more than stay in their comfort zone.

But the ladies on my yard often remark that it's amazing what my cob has turned into, whereas to me, it's the logical effect of 2 years of hard graft! When she arrived she was so fat she could barely move, nappy, shuffley, stiff, behind the leg - basically your average untrained horse. Hadn't intended to keep her but I felt a *wow* moment one day schooling at home, and thought it was worth carrying on for a bit to see what else she could learn. Now we have free movement, expression, uphill, bit of cadence appearing at home. I know she will piaffe and passage because I can feel the ability in her ordinary work. I know she will do a good change, now we have a sitting canter coming along. She cost me £2. She's a 14hh welsh cob, now aged 11. Couldn't be more ordinary.

Helps, of course, that I've felt those wow moments before and also been able to develop them in other horses. I love it, it's so exciting. I wish I could pass that on to the people looking at *their* ordinary dobbins and help them to feel that sense of achievement.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I don't have an issue with people who are content to remain within their comfort zone, and to do what they've always done, rather than striving to improve themselves/their horses. I don't think it's for anyone else to say what someone "should" be trying to achieve. It's a personal choice, and that's fine.

I'm not convinced a lot of people are content. So often I hear people say they would love to do XYZ but cant because.........
Rarely do the reasons seem valid (except money/transport).

 

[Casey76]

I'm seeing more and more nervous riders these days. Why is this?

for me it is the "falling off hurts" which has been drummed into me by ending up very hurt every time I've fallen. I already have several (minor) deficits due to a TBI, which affect my balance and proprioception - it makes me feel much less stable and more likely to fall off, even if I'm seated securely.

Having said that... there are a lot more riders coming to it as adults, when they haven't been able to develop their seat (and fall technique) as kids on ponies. I envy all of the kids at the yard, who are much braver than I am, and seem to stay on no matter what shapes their pony is making below them.

 

[ihatework]

I'm not convinced a lot of people are content. So often I hear people say they would love to do XYZ but cant because.........
Rarely do the reasons seem valid (except money/transport).

I think that is a personality trait though rather than equine specific.
I see it a lot in a working environment.
And probably the basis of the saying 'you make your own luck'

 

[milliepops]

What I have no time for is those in the above category that whinge and whine about pothunters and unfairness of rules. Either accept and be content to potter about or put in the effort to be good!

^^ suspect it was one such comment on here that may have inspired this post? :wink3::biggrin3:

No way, will cure that problem in first lesson.
I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.

^love it. Yes, I agree

 

[PaddyMonty]

Having said that... there are a lot more riders coming to it as adults, when they haven't been able to develop their seat (and fall technique) as kids on ponies.

This could be a fair old chunk of the reason.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

I agree with it being how much you want it too. It's easy for people who aren't working hard to say 'well i dont have the money etc etc etc' but nor do I or most people I know cracking at trying to get up through the levels.
I work full time, have a relationship and soon our own house to balance, I also have 3 of my own horses 3/4/5yo I have produced on my own and I am often down the yard at 9-10 at a night before I finish. I don't want a pat on the back, it's what I choose to do but I hate people who leave the horses at 4:30 and say the only reason other people are successful is their 'good horses' without acknowledging the work that has gone into making that 'good horse'

 

[AdorableAlice]

I agree with it being how much you want it too. It's easy for people who aren't working hard to say 'well i dont have the money etc etc etc' but nor do I or most people I know cracking at trying to get up through the levels.
I work full time, have a relationship and soon our own house to balance, I also have 3 of my own horses 3/4/5yo I have produced on my own and I am often down the yard at 9-10 at a night before I finish. I don't want a pat on the back, it's what I choose to do but I hate people who leave the horses at 4:30 and say the only reason other people are successful is their 'good horses' without acknowledging the work that has gone into making that 'good horse'

A very fair comment.

I still take pleasure from three comments made to me a few years ago.

The first was watching Robert Oliver point to my horse and say to his friends - that is the amateur produced horse that is taking all our prizes, we do it for a living, it should not be allowed.

The second was a pro producer telling me if he had my horse it would do better than it was doing. Made me smile as it had just won the open.

The third was after our class at HOY's, we had finished 7th and the only amateur, a pro advised me to get my rider off and let the pro on for next season.

i guess we all keep, produce, train or merely enjoy our horses for different reasons. I was as proud of my sausage meat horse when he won his first intro test as I was when my superstar was supreme hunter champion. Two very different horses with very different needs.

 

[Morgan123]

I think it's all relative. It sounds like you achieve a lot to me - but the British eventing team might by like 'why the hell are you doing BE90s and BE100s for a whole season' - assuming the horse is up to it, they generally skip through much quicker. That's no different really to what you're saying about people who are a few levels below you.

I think it's a bit unfair when people bemoan those who stick at 70cm classes because everything else looks bigger - yes it's smaller than many of us would regularly jump, but then again to me 1.10 looks humungous. To some people 1.10 is insignificant. It just depends what you're used to, we all have a limit to our fear/ability. Mostly it isn't the horse that's the limiting factor!

However I do agree to some extent and also find it a bit frustrating when you get lots of 'I always wanted to....' or 'I always thought he'd be good at....' - and you think well just go and do it then!..... so I know where you're coming from.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Thanks for the responses so far. Much food for thought which bring me to a sub-musing......
Taking all the people I know / have met that are out competing at the entry levels (dont like the word low level) when ever I have asked if they plan to compete at several levels up almost to a person they will not respond with "No desire to". What I tend to get is "would be to scared to", "horse not capable", "I wouldn't be good enough".
So reading between the lines the desire buried deep inside is there but they are probably being held back by something.
Is the training system in this country failing to inspire, instill confidence, create belief? Are their peer groups holding them back? Is it a fear of failure for trying?
I would love to know.

 

[milliepops]

i guess we all keep, produce, train or merely enjoy our horses for different reasons. I was as proud of my sausage meat horse when he won his first intro test as I was when my superstar was supreme hunter champion. Two very different horses with very different needs.

Well, yes, and from reading your 'project' thread, probably about the same kind of impressive achievement for them both.

Those kind of comments make it all worthwhile, for various reasons don't they? A few months ago I was stopped at the scoreboard by my judge, asking if I had 'the cob'. I said yes, wondering what was coming next... he said that was the kind of horse more people needed at this level (Novice BD at the time),that would come in and do a job without making a fuss, and consequently win the class. It was one of those days when the lovely smart WBs were all farting about being generally ridiculous. Made my heart swell with pride.