A new one on me, SPRINGBATTS!

[Jhanami]

You criticise that it is someones actual lifelihood, that they do this job with heart and soul and not in a garage whilst pissing off to the office from 9-5 because it must somehow mean that they are money grapping greedy ******** conning harmless, but obviously stupid people like myself, into buying sub-standard time bombs of desease.

Dogs from there have been bred for about 11 or 12 years now, at least that's the oldest dogs I know - none of them (to my knowledge, and I'm in touch with about 100 other owners via our own online group) has ever had selective deafness, entropion or ectropion, and the Queen Anne's legs are quite rare and muted where they occur - none of the ones I know about had any problems with it.
Loads of us own or have owned Bassetts in the past though and many of us had problems with the conditions you mention.

Thanks again for calling me stupid, was a pleasure to talk to you and be exposed to your eloquent ways of getting your point across.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I have seen quite a few of these crosses -usually when the people get something they don't expect and come to experienced Basset people for help. They get conned by the best of both spiel and end up with all the characteristics they don't want.

They are only bred for money, not for any desire to promote or improve a breed. I did not see any facts in your post - only that you got lucky & didn't get queen anne legs, selective deafness and entropion or ectropion (which both breeds can have). A bit early yet for Glaucoma.
If you are stupid enough to hand over money rather than getting a mutt from a rescue or paying someone who has put effort & money into good breeding practices then that is your choice. Stupid is as stupid does.

The website is poor - not because they are not website designers but because it shows enough to con the inexperienced puppy buyer but leaves off the information that a dog savvy buyer would want. Therefore all of the buyers will be equally inexperienced which is why they get on together.

There is no reason to breed from dogs without breed appropriate health clearances.

Priceless, you have surpassed yourself but I agree with every word you say.

OP I really hope your dog turns out to be one of the lucky ones and wish you well but you wont convince any of us that this breeder is not a puppy farmer, however cute the pups may be.

 

[mrh1970]

Nothing like a debate about pedigree to get the manners left at the door, is there?

I actually have one of these dogs. We bought it almost four years ago after deciding we wanted something a little different; my wife and I had previously owned pedigrees - she a Great Dane and I a Boxer - and did a lot of searching for something that would be good with kids, not shed too much and demand a reasonable amount of exercise without needing 5 miles a day. We were pointed in the direction of Mannorroy, looked into their background, saw the facilities a couple of times and have been thoroughly impressed not only with the quality of what we saw before we bought but with the level of support ever since.

Springbatts are frankly delightful dogs, with a relaxed temperament, outstanding with kids and other animals and - so far - no health issues. Ours sees the vet once a month and other than a slight tendency to put on the pounds when I'm working away and he's getting walked a little less he's been perfect. Compared to my friend's Bassett he's a little heavier and a little less stubborn & independent, but the fact is that I'd happily have either (other than the fact that like any sensible dog owner I know that mine is, in fact, the finest mammal ever to walk the earth!)

It does seem a little odd to suppose that anyone who's cross breeding a) doesn't know what they're doing and b) is necessarily going to end up with something that's not right. Ultimately that's how we ended up with breeds in the first place.

Now, does anyone know where I can buy my daughter a nice Clydeshire for her birthday?

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm with CC, anyone who breeds dogs as a full time job is doing it for the wrong reasons.
mrh, just out of interest, why does your dog with no health issues have to see a vet once a month.

 

[Jhanami]

MurphysMinder, i obviously disagree although im sure there are those who are doing it for the wrong reasons - simply because making a living out of your passion for me isnt per se a bad thing, but fair enough - do you think that about any full time breeders of any animals, or just dogs?

 

[MurphysMinder]

My issue is with dogs as it is dogs I am involved in. IMO to make a decent living, after paying for health tests, feeding dam and pups etc, a breeder would have to constantly have litters on the ground, which to me is not responsible breeding.

 

[Dobiegirl]

We paid £550 for our KC registered Lancashire Heeler puppy fully health & DNA tested, our breeder only has the 2 bitches and Im sure she is not going to give up her day job considering LHs rarely seem to have more than 4 puppies.

I will either buy a rescue or buy from ethically minded breeders who are in it for the love of the breed when I want my next dog.

Op when you bought your puppy did the breeder offer to take it back if you could no longer keep it.

Buying a KC registered pup also limits the number of litters the bitch can produce but the Springbatts breeder can keep breeding from that bitch until the cows come home.

 

[Jhanami]

I think they do have a lot of litters, but different kinds from different parents - that is Labs, Dalmations and Batts, with no mum having more than one litter every couple of years or so.
I think it's great that everybody here is weary of puppy farms and rogue breeders, and we have all seen those horrible pictures of actual puppy farms - just saying since I know them personally in my opinion some of you got the wrong end of the stick.
I don't think there's that many breeders who stay in contact with all their puppy's owners, support them over years, and are always available and helpful (even if they publish eye tests and bone measurements).
Maybe if you live close by (anyone on here), go and have a look?
Anyway, MurphysMinder, my pups is the best thing ever happened to me - one might forgive me for trying to give a different perspective - I'm sure you all would

 

[GeeGeeboy]

S4sugar- you always tell it like it is and I agree with you in this case!

 

[Jhanami]

Dobiegirl, they not only offer to take the pups back they make it a condition - since I am part of the owners group (2 1/2 years) there have been 2 re-homings due to divorce or similar issues and they have all been facilitated by the original breeder.

But then there aren't that many of them (despite some of you thinking they churn out thousands and we are a pretty tight-knit community - we raised 3,5k last year to help one family to emigrate to Australia and be able to take the dog with them - its a bit like an extended family and I suppose I get quite defensive about them.

Maybe wiser to let it go - we won't convince each other any time soon

 

[Jhanami]

GeeGeeboy - everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it'd be nice to do that without resorting to patronising or insulting the other party. Maybe we can all agree to that, too?

 

[Dobiegirl]

When we bought our first Lancashire Heelers back in the late 1980s we stayed in touch with the breeder long after our dogs died so its not uncommon for breeders to stay in touch.

You never bought up the money part as I think £695 for a mixed breed with no health testing is ridiculous and something even if I won the lottery I wouldnt pay. Saying that if they were 50p I wouldnt be buying anyway and would rather take my chance with a rescue.

Any pups I buy I would want reared in the home and to be exposed to as much as a home environment as possible.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think you will find most breeders stay in touch with owners of their pups, I certainly do. Just last week I was contacted to be given the sad news that a bitch I bred had been pts at the age of 15 years and 2 months , at one point this bitch looked as if she might need rehoming and I did my best to help (some of the folks on here might remember me asking for help on here), luckily in the end this didn't happen and she had a wonderful long life.
Jhanami you are right we are probably never going to agree, commercial breeders who have several breeds will always have a ring of puppy farm to me. However I am glad your pup is the best thing that has happened to you, I am sure that is how every breeder like their puppy owners to feel.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Have to say they are attractive though,and I NEVER thought I would say that of a crossbred!

I have a Springer x Welsh Collie and she is stunning. Can't believe you will dismiss all crossbreeds. Those pups look a little odd but very cute. Still don't quite understand why people pay so much money for mongrels seems very strange to me. Paid only the cost of pup's first jab for my cross breed and four years later when I wanted another one they were asking more for a 'Sprollie' than I paid for a pure bred springer! Mad. ( not the person I bought the original from I might add, she was an accident when the farm's working collie got in with the breeding, working springers.)

 

[MurphysMinder]

Crugeran Colt, personally I have no problem with crossbreeds. My issue is with people churning out crossbreeds, giving them stupid names as "designer breeds" and charging ridiculous amounts for them.

 

[cbmcts]

I think the 'hybrid vigour' myth is a hangover from the days of when there were true heinz 57 mongrels - you know, the ones that were collie x GSD x greyhound x pointer x terrier x spaniel x lab (always terrier in there somewhere, determined little sods that they are ) and that was just Mum! Dad would also have had as many breeds/types in his lineage... In those cases you will have a chance of good health or at least no hereditary issues.

Nowadays, true mongrels are rarer than hens teeth, mainly because of neutering and that dogs don't get to wander they way they did. There are crossbreeds instead, just a mix of two and maybe three breeds and a fair bit of clever marketing.


The problems with this are


a) you don't know which parent the pup is going to take after!
b) they have become fashionable, therefore have a market so attract unscrupulous breeders who see easy money. These puppy farmers used to produce pedigree litters but as buyers became better educated about health risks it became harder to sell them. With these crosses it is easier to peddle the myth that these will be hardier than a pure bred. BUT a dog will only be as good, healthwise as it's sire and dam - if they aren't properly health tested, what chance does the pup have? Exactly the same chance as a pup who had pedigree untested parents.
c) Nearly every pedigree breed has had its day of being in vogue - we've all seen and are still seeing the problems that has caused. These cross breeds are no different and the issues are starting to arise already. The dogs that aren't hypo-allergenic (the original reason for cross breeding), are inherently unhealthy just like badly bred pedigrees, temperament issues because they weren't socialised as pups and/or from farmed bitches are becoming a serious problem now.

The pups on that link are seriously cute as are all pups TBF. If the breeders were using dogs that were health and temperament tested plus had been out winning/working in their respective fields I would have no problem with them using them for cross breeding. (I might think they were mad but that's my prejudices showing ). If that was the case wouldn't they be shouting it loud and proud on their website? Since they're not, I would have no option but to assume that these litters are from untested dogs and by that I would consider them BYB if not puppy farmers. I apologise for thinking that if it isn't the case but that's what it looks likes sadly.

 

[galaxy]

GeeGeeboy - everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it'd be nice to do that without resorting to patronising or insulting the other party. Maybe we can all agree to that, too?

still in the dark as to what health test are done on the parents of these pups????

 

[Jhanami]

Crogeran - the reason why I paid that much is because I wanted that puppy - the fact that he should be cheaper on accounts of being a cross breed simply never occurred - and still doesn't he was and is simply the best and worth every penny. Wish I could show you - still haven't figured out how to post photographs though :/

MurhpysMinder, we came across a lot of people who's breeders do nothing of the sorts, event though they only do one litter per year and breed pure breeds, which is why seeing for yourself where they come from and who breeds them cannot be substituted. What dogs do you breed?

Regarding the issue of not being in the house - they are next door in their own inside space, in piece and quiet. When they are old enough they come into the house and you've seen them being baby-sitted by a black lab - they get exposed to all sorts of dogs and noises and people, they are on constant baby cam, and cuddled and loved and well looked after, whilst giving the mum and her litter their own space. Maybe not so wrong?
No problem introducing our puppy into our house

Our family's last two dogs have been rescues - I don't know why this is being bandied around as a 'I'd rather have that' argument - both of them were lovely lovely dogs, a border collie, and a liquorice all sorts, we simply fell in love with a Springbatt puppy this time. And I wouldn't dream of telling Doberman owners, or any other breed for that matter, that I'd rather have a rescue, as if that's somehow the moral high ground. Although it's true that I'd rather have a Springbatt - go figure

 

[Jhanami]

Cbmcts - that's the sort of argument I can perfectly live with - well put out and fair enough. Happy to agree to disagree

 

[MurphysMinder]

Sorry,yes I should have said responsible breeders. There are plenty of people who breed a litter from their bitch once a year and as you say don't give a damn about the pups once they have the money in their hands. I have known many breeders in my breed (german shepherds) and I would say nearly all help with rehoming dogs they have bred if the need should arise. They also all health test dogs before breeding and only use those who have good scores.

cbmcts - excellent post.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Cbmcbt hear hear.

Op 2 of my dogs are Dobermanns, both from rescue, so you could say I have the best of both worlds.

 

[cbmcts]

Cbmcts - that's the sort of argument I can perfectly live with - well put out and fair enough. Happy to agree to disagree

I say all that but while I wouldn't seek out a xbred pup as you did I've only had one pedigree from a pup in the past 20 years. Despite the fact that he came from a health testing reputable breeder he was the one I lost to cancer at 8 years old. His vets bills for various ops hit five figures over his short life

I've also had 3 terriers in that time - one an ex breeding bitch (probably why I'm so against puppy farming as she was in a horrific state when I got her) who lived to 21, another bitch who I took from the same yard at 5 weeks old as she was fading who died when she was 13 and my current dog who I got as an 8 year old rescue. The terriers were/are all JRT types who are probably the nearest thing to an old fashioned Heinz 57 type that you can find these days. They were/are all disgustingly healthy dogs - the oldie once she put on her desperately needed weight and stopped having a litter every few months barely made a trip to the vets until her late teens, the other girl had problems with her teeth at about 10 but that was sorted by removing nearly all of them! Current dog, now 10 will probably need a dental soon but acts like a puppy half the time.

My point is that buying pups, no matter how cute from a breeder that doesn't at least try and minimise the risk of ill health is opening yourself up to heartbreak - sometimes you can try and and do everything right and it still doesn't work out (as in my case) but I couldn't find it in myself to go looking for it IYSWIM. I love 'my' breed (Rottweilers) and would have another in a heartbeat despite knowing of all the problems they are prone to but will always try and find a breeder that is doing their best by the breed. Also, I believe that we should spend our money supporting the people who are doing the right thing by their dogs even though they could make a far bigger profit by not bothering.

So I'm not anti crossbreed or rescue or even anti breeding - my mutt rescues have been very healthy, happy dogs but I don't feel I could support breeders, pedigree or otherwise who are irresponsible in any way...

 

[NeverSayNever]

Good God, something that wants to but can't Whatever next

 

[mrh1970]

I'm with CC, anyone who breeds dogs as a full time job is doing it for the wrong reasons.
mrh, just out of interest, why does your dog with no health issues have to see a vet once a month.

My mistake - he saw the vet once a month as a pup; it's now every three months as part of a flat monthly fee deal (regular checkups, insurance against ops and a discount on food).

Concerns about puppy farming are entirely reasonable, there are plenty of them out there just as there are pedigree breeders who'll happily breed in dogs with overly small skulls or narrow pelvises based on whatever they're trying to win (and far more again who'll crop the ears or tails of non-working dogs for aesthetic reasons, which is a personal bugbear of mine). But most pedigree breeders don't and I did my homework to make sure I wasn't buying a cross breed from someone who didn't know what they were doing. What WILL be interesting, however, is when the batts start hitting 10 or thereabouts - I'm not sure we've actually seen any of them go yet, so we'll have to wait to see whether they start hitting Bassett-type issues as they get older.

 

[Calcyle]

- cross breeds are not healthier than reponsibly bred pure bred pups from health tested parents.

Whilst I do agree with you there -

"hybrid vigour" is a total myth.

- well, no, it's not, just generally a grossly misunderstood and misattributed term.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Whilst I am sure your dogs are lovely, I cannot see the benefit of crossing these two breeds. These people are breeding two high drive types, with no mention of the relevent health tests on either parent and charging an unbelievable amount of money for a crossbred puppy, because it has a silly name.

 

[Venevidivici]

Interesting thread
All I have to add that others haven't is,Jhanami,if you are still in touch and on close terms with the breeder as you say,you urge them to properly record, (on their website and in any literature), the results of the breed appropriate health tests done (which of course,as 'responsible' breeders,they have had carried out by a vet in addition to ordinary health checks) on the dams and sires of ALL their breeding dogs.

Then there'd be little confusing them with the less responsible 'faddy' breeders,doing it for the cash generated by the uneducated,'cutesie' market....

 

[zippo]

Dame Shirley Bassette,[please note that she has now been elevated,if not to the peerage],after consultation with her humans,thinks they are rather special and would be happy to share her basket,in front of the AGA,with tricolour puppy.Bearing in mind,that in no way did she meet her supposed lineage and it was very interesting to see what she grew into.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Crogeran - the reason why I paid that much is because I wanted that puppy - the fact that he should be cheaper on accounts of being a cross breed simply never occurred - and still doesn't he was and is simply the best and worth every penny. Wish I could show you - still haven't figured out how to post photographs though :/

Hey its your money and your choice, my sister has just bought an Akitamute and she is an absolutely fabulous natured and healthy dog so money well spent in her eyes as well. To be honest if you love the dog and have given it a good, happy home then good on you and its no one else's business.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Some really good points (and some bullets to the head!!!)

My comment about breeding to make money has already been covered, if your main motivator is money then the quality of the breed or type of dog takes second place IMO.
Health tests cost money and that will eat into profits.

The fact that no specific health tests/results have been mentioned yet still speaks volumes to me.
I would say that for any dog, pedigree or non pedigree. There is NO excuse not to health test, the information is out there. Say, at most, £300 on each parent: £600, still less than the price of one puppy.

Hell, I spent £300 on health tests for my young dog (hips, elbows, DNA) for my dog and I don't even intend to breed him - I just want to know he is sound before I send him over hurdles and A-frames, I wanted them on record and they will be helpful if I intend to show him or get a breed survey done on him.

He cost around £450 at 16 weeks from two world championship competitors and five gens of working titled and health tested dogs. I know the basics about every dog in his five gen pedigree if something ever does go wrong and I have his breeder's phone number and we are in regular contact.

Oh yes and he is also a healthy, much loved dog who never fails to make me smile, even when he is being a little sod. None of these things are mutually exclusive!!