A numpty has a Classical dressage lesson

[Reacher]

As my saddle has been away for a few weeks being adjusted and I’d heard of a RS just over an hour from us I booked a lesson yesterday on their dressage schoolmaster.

It’s a rather crap drive there on awful twisty roads and I made myself queasy ? even though I was driving! I got there quite early in case I got lost en route.

I am a bog standard sort of riding club rider, have owned current horse for 5 years, (not my first horse) have regular lessons , had lessons over over the past 10+ years on own horses with decent standard instructors (including BHIs - who never mentioned the seat aids) , dabbled in BE80/90 - and have lots of bad habits dating back to childhood RS which have never been kicked out of me.

It is Bigland Hall in south cumbria. The RI was trained in Portugal in classical dressage and has ridden GP.

It was a little frustrating at being taken back pretty much to lesson 101 and be told (yet again! by a new instructor) (this seems to happen ever time I try a new instructor) that I was doing everything wrong....But it was interesting to ride a schoolmaster who would only move if my weight etc was correct.

I was told off for my toes turning out - which they do - I do have narrow (about size 8) and tight hips - but I think the treeless saddle didn’t help being very flat. (Horse was about 15 hh Connemara type and not excessively wide)

I was also told off for holding my hands stuck out in front of me- because this is how an advanced medium (? -apologies if I’ve got that wrong - top hat and tails anyway) fei dressage rider / BHSII / dressage judge instructor taught me previously ? I hate having to unlearn everything !!

So I was told to carry hands very wide and much closer to my body.

I was also told off for my heels lifting when I try and use my leg - yes I know I have this habit - why do I STILL do this after all these years of lessons!!

The lesson started with her explaining the theory about why
the toes turned out affected the pelvis which affected the horse and about the position B and D for the legs (never hear it called this before) on the girth and behind the girth - my leg kept swinging too far back.

By the end we did some leg yields in trot, turn on forehand and had a canter - without using leg aids . Have to admit I didn’t really understand the canter seat aids- will ask for further clarification next time.

Trying to decide whether to stop my current lessons on own horse and just focus on going there to learn the basics on their horse then maybe taking mr H in a couple of months to get the buttons installed.

Trouble is I feel terribly guilty about stopping current lessons but it is too pricey to do both plus I think I will confuse myself being taught 2 different styles. One of my current instructors (very well respected and sought after RI) has me use (what feels to me) like a lot of hand in order to get Mr H to come round plus a lot of leg which is at odds with what I was learning yesterday.

So hope this wasn’t too boring a write up!

Edited for clarity

PS forgot to mention that after I finished the RI’s daughter got on and gave a demo - doing the lateral movements in canter - very subtle riding - I couldn’t see the aids at all- I believe she has ridden at PSG

 

[KEK]

Not boring at all! Very interesting. I've thought similar to you- should I have schoolmaster lessons whilst leaving the training of my pony to the trainer (she is very good at training him but not so good at teaching me). Sadly, it comes down to $$$ here, too

 

[Cortez]

It's a whole new world, isn't it? The fact is that there are many different styles of riding, and a myriad layers from beginner to advanced in all of them. I would be a classically inclined person myself and have trained in Portugal and Spain for many years, after starting off in a completely different system. It's entirely up to you which path you take, but if you want to get the best out of it you would be wise to get some training for your horse too. Learning from a schoolmaster horse has to be the best and most privileged way to learn feel and tact.

 

[planete]

As you get older you will become very grateful you and your horse have learnt to work with the minimum of strength needed, keep up the new lessons. I am still schooling at 74, no way could I do it with a lot of weight on my hands or the need for thighs of steel!

 

[Reacher]

Not boring at all! Very interesting. I've thought similar to you- should I have schoolmaster lessons whilst leaving the training of my pony to the trainer (she is very good at training him but not so good at teaching me). Sadly, it comes down to $$$ here, too

If you can find somewhere that has a good schoolmaster and the instruction to go with it i’d certainly try a couple of lessons ( I always find the first lesson somewhere new is a shock to the system but you hopefully get more out of the following lessons) to see if you like it . Why didn’t we take up a cheaper / easier hobby like say knitting ?

 

[Reacher]

It's a whole new world, isn't it? The fact is that there are many different styles of riding, and a myriad layers from beginner to advanced in all of them. I would be a classically inclined person myself and have trained in Portugal and Spain for many years, after starting off in a completely different system. It's entirely up to you which path you take, but if you want to get the best out of it you would be wise to get some training for your horse too. Learning from a schoolmaster horse has to be the best and most privileged way to learn feel and tact.

Yes it certainly is a whole new world.
I guess I’m a bit confused by there being different styles of dressage specifically - and it kind of seems like it would have been just as easy to learn “correctly “ in the first place as learning the standard BHS way them having to unlearn a lot.

I will book some more school master lessons then bring my own horse once I am more consistent.

I hope I’m not going to be too held back by my narrow/tight hips as I don’t know how much i can improve my flexibility (I will be doing exercises).

As I probably missed some of the theory of the biomechanics / aids etc I was wondering if you / anyone could recommend a clear book ? I have got a Mary wanless book (Rider Biomechanics) but I didn’t get on with it very well.

 

[Reacher]

As you get older you will become very grateful you and your horse have learnt to work with the minimum of strength needed, keep up the new lessons. I am still schooling at 74, no way could I do it with a lot of weight on my hands or the need for thighs of steel!

Wow that is fantastic!

Thanks, I hope we can retrain both me and the horse to need the minimum of strength as he is quite strong and er, strong willed, and I am getting creaky finger joints and hips already ?

 

[sbloom]

Low wide hands will mean the solar plexus of the rider can't be engaged, without that it's going to be harder for a horse to truly push up in front in my experience.

Narrow/tight hips, rider biomechanics, I'd not recommend a book, you need an assessment as you can't tell hip size/conformation from the outside. There are some great biomechs coaches out there but I'd recommend Rider Reboot on FB. There are also saddles, and a systems of assessment and fitting, that work with your actual pelvic and hip conformation.

 

[Reacher]

Low wide hands will mean the solar plexus of the rider can't be engaged, without that it's going to be harder for a horse to truly push up in front in my experience.

Narrow/tight hips, rider biomechanics, I'd not recommend a book, you need an assessment as you can't tell hip size/conformation from the outside. There are some great biomechs coaches out there but I'd recommend Rider Reboot on FB. There are also saddles, and a systems of assessment and fitting, that work with your actual pelvic and hip conformation.

I’d say it was high-ish wide hands if that makes a difference?

Thanks I’ll look into rider reboot.
I might ask my acpat. Physio to look at me as a start. Living in the back end of beyond I have less access to biomechanics coaches / other specialists . I think I have more of an issue on the school saddle than my own.

 

[teapot]

Not boring at all!

If you're struggling to find a physio, and you're on Facebook, follow the activate your seat page. She posts some great exercises which will help I'm sure. My lower leg gets a bit loose if I'm tight in the hips, it all relates at end of the day.

 

[I'm Dun]

There are some great biomechs coaches out there but I'd recommend Rider Reboot on FB. There are also saddles, and a systems of assessment and fitting, that work with your actual pelvic and hip conformation.

I'm going to see him on Saturday for an assessement. I'm a bit sceptical but open minded to see if it does help.

 

[Orangehorse]

Yes it certainly is a whole new world.
I guess I’m a bit confused by there being different styles of dressage specifically - and it kind of seems like it would have been just as easy to learn “correctly “ in the first place as learning the standard BHS way them having to unlearn a lot.

I will book some more school master lessons then bring my own horse once I am more consistent.

I hope I’m not going to be too held back by my narrow/tight hips as I don’t know how much i can improve my flexibility (I will be doing exercises).

As I probably missed some of the theory of the biomechanics / aids etc I was wondering if you / anyone could recommend a clear book ? I have got a Mary wanless book (Rider Biomechanics) but I didn’t get on with it very well.

This is a bugbear of mine, having been to different trainers and clinics over the years to try and find the "holy grail" of riding, which I never did. My most successful years were when having occasional lessons with Perry Wood, who trained abroad, I think.

I wanted to suggest that every "well knonw" trainer should be shut into a room and not be allowed out until they could all agree on the correct way to teach riding! Am I right in thinking that in Germany that a uniform system is taught, so everyone learns the same thing from the start?

 

[Mule]

When I first got the beast he couldn't carry himself because his front and hind had been pushed and pulled together. I had to train him to carry himself and respond to much lighter aids in general. Aside from it being more correct, there was no way I was going to carry that big oafs front end around for him

 

[planete]

This is a bugbear of mine, having been to different trainers and clinics over the years to try and find the "holy grail" of riding, which I never did. My most successful years were when having occasional lessons with Perry Wood, who trained abroad, I think.

I wanted to suggest that every "well knonw" trainer should be shut into a room and not be allowed out until they could all agree on the correct way to teach riding! Am I right in thinking that in Germany that a uniform system is taught, so everyone learns the same thing from the start?

I am re-reading Perry Wood's Real Riding right now!

 

[Cob Life]

I am having lessons with a Show rider who is amazing! I get taught on her school masters (1 has a very similar way of going to blue but way better schooled) and she gives me tips on what to work on with Blue at home, different things I can try and feedback to her.

It’s working really well this way for us, I learn where the buttons are then I teach blue where they are, he’s much happier and we have made more progress in the last few weeks than we have the last 2 years!

 

[Reacher]

Not boring at all!

If you're struggling to find a physio, and you're on Facebook, follow the activate your seat page. She posts some great exercises which will help I'm sure. My lower leg gets a bit loose if I'm tight in the hips, it all relates at end of the day.

Thanks Teapot that’s really useful,
I will definitely take a look ?

This is a bugbear of mine, having been to different trainers and clinics over the years to try and find the "holy grail" of riding, which I never did. My most successful years were when having occasional lessons with Perry Wood, who trained abroad, I think.

I wanted to suggest that every "well knonw" trainer should be shut into a room and not be allowed out until they could all agree on the correct way to teach riding! Am I right in thinking that in Germany that a uniform system is taught, so everyone learns the same thing from the start?

That’s an excellent ideas ?
I think my problem is no one ironed out my bad habits dating from childhood RS - but you would think dressage would be a basic “correct” foundation to build upon which would be universally taught. But what do I know!
I suspect if I turned up at my other lessons with hands held high and wide I’d get yelled at ?

When I first got the beast he couldn't carry himself because his front and hind had been pushed and pulled together. I had to train him to carry himself and respond to much lighter aids in general. Aside from it being more correct, there was no way I was going to carry that big oafs front end around for him

Yes I rode my (now retired) mare - ex racehorse , leaned on me like a ton of bricks - for years and I blame my knackered fingers on her ?.
My current horse, Mr H , came from various pony club homes and is also very strong and it has been a long journey trying to reschool him (and reschool me from pulling). I hope that if I persevere with the classical place they can sort us both out.

I am having lessons with a Show rider who is amazing! I get taught on her school masters (1 has a very similar way of going to blue but way better schooled) and she gives me tips on what to work on with Blue at home, different things I can try and feedback to her.

It’s working really well this way for us, I learn where the buttons are then I teach blue where they are, he’s much happier and we have made more progress in the last few weeks than we have the last 2 years!

Sounds fabulous! Hope it works for us too.

I am re-reading Perry Wood's Real Riding right now!

Ooh thanks - I’ll google him

 

[sbloom]

I'm going to see him on Saturday for an assessement. I'm a bit sceptical but open minded to see if it does help.

I found that the testimonials were from such good sources, and such huge changes for older women especially, that I went with a pretty positive outlook. He showed me some interesting tests where I could really feel the differences, and I had my first discomfort free night in at least months if not years. I am doing the exercises, though not often enough (my own fault, they're far from onerous), and seeing some improvement. My appointment was mostly spent discussing riders and saddles though to be fair

 

[Reacher]

I am thinking of booking another schoolmaster lesson for me but also take my own horse for him to have a lesson schooled by their rider in the same visit . This would get extra value from the ? making journey down that awful road.
(It would also mean I have to live on bread and water £££...)
If it’s not too boring I will update the thread with our progress.

 

[tristar]

well i have one who needs leg until warmed, but i really love riding the others who are effortless, and my newly broke cob who is so forwards, i am just too lazy for most horses, would rather feel breathless from hanging on trying to keep up, than bursting a blood vessel from shoving and pushing and pulling!

sure your muscles will take time to adapt but sounds like you are starting a great journey

look forwards to an update

 

[Reacher]

I found that the testimonials were from such good sources, and such huge changes for older women especially, that I went with a pretty positive outlook. He showed me some interesting tests where I could really feel the differences, and I had my first discomfort free night in at least months if not years. I am doing the exercises, though not often enough (my own fault, they're far from onerous), and seeing some improvement. My appointment was mostly spent discussing riders and saddles though to be fair

Andy Thomas who has been given great reviews on here - annoyingly he ventured up here for a clinic but I was too late to get onto it . Maybe another time.

well i have one who needs leg until warmed, but i really love riding the others who are effortless, and my newly broke cob who is so forwards, i am just too lazy for most horses, would rather feel breathless from hanging on trying to keep up, than bursting a blood vessel from shoving and pushing and pulling!

sure your muscles will take time to adapt but sounds like you are starting a great journey

look forwards to an update

Thankyou ?
My horse isn’t backward in general (in fact when jumping he is too forward and the problem is stopping him pulling)
I do have a (probably dim) question about how do you apply the “classical” method when you are jumping for example? My wobbly seat made the horse stop when i shifted weight forwards accidentally- so without being an amazing rider I can imagine my wobbly weight would confuse the hell out of it jumping ? Can the horse be trained to do classical and jumping? In mr H’s case he ignores me anyway....

It was very strange being on a different horse (the schoolmaster) who would not go at all when my seat aids were wrong. You’d think I’d never sat on a horse before!

 

[Cortez]

Andy Thomas who has been given great reviews on here - annoyingly he ventured up here for a clinic but I was too late to get onto it . Maybe another time.


Thankyou ?
My horse isn’t backward in general (in fact when jumping he is too forward and the problem is stopping him pulling)
I do have a (probably dim) question about how do you apply the “classical” method when you are jumping for example? My wobbly seat made the horse stop when i shifted weight forwards accidentally- so without being an amazing rider I can imagine my wobbly weight would confuse the hell out of it jumping ? Can the horse be trained to do classical and jumping? In mr H’s case he ignores me anyway....

It was very strange being on a different horse (the schoolmaster) who would not go at all when my seat aids were wrong. You’d think I’d never sat on a horse before!

Well, jumping isn't a "classical" thing, unless you include caprioles and courbettes . The "I felt like I'd never sat on a horse before" is a common reaction after riding an Alta Escuela, or classically trained horse.

 

[tristar]

the classical thing must be for everything surely, balance, riding with seat, ie horse coming back to you to reset balance before a jump, its only general training that you do anyway, but less dominating, more about say straightness and suppleness so going around a corner towards a double nicely bent then being properly straight into the jump, using the seat instead of the hands and maintaining a flowing well regulated balance throughout a round saves time

 

[Cortez]

the classical thing must be for everything surely, balance, riding with seat, ie horse coming back to you to reset balance before a jump, its only general training that you do anyway, but less dominating, more about say straightness and suppleness so going around a corner towards a double nicely bent then being properly straight into the jump, using the seat instead of the hands and maintaining a flowing well regulated balance throughout a round saves time

People have very different views on what "classical" training is, or isn't. It's one of the reasons why I never call myself a classical trainer (that, and not wanting to have to get a long flowing coat, twirly mustache or silly hat). If you take the view, as I do, that it means training out of the original (or classical....) 17th - 18th century manuals that are still the basis for training at the SRS or Real Escuela, then there is no jumping. You can of course take the principles involved (balance, lightness, suppleness, obedience) and apply them to any area of horse training.

 

[tristar]

People have very different views on what "classical" training is, or isn't. It's one of the reasons why I never call myself a classical trainer (that, and not wanting to have to get a long flowing coat, twirly mustache or silly hat). If you take the view, as I do, that it means training out of the original (or classical....) 17th - 18th century manuals that are still the basis for training at the SRS or Real Escuela, then there is no jumping. You can of course take the principles involved (balance, lightness, suppleness, obedience) and apply them to any area of horse training.

that`s what i said surely its for everything, can be applied to some degree in most horse sports

aha i`ve seen you dressed up on here! but take on board your point

 

[sbloom]

Andy Thomas who has been given great reviews on here - annoyingly he ventured up here for a clinic but I was too late to get onto it . Maybe another time.
!

Just to clarify I was talking about Rider Reboot, David Sanders. He has completed Andy's intro course but has decades in biomex and looks at both instrinsic and functional aspects (luckily he's helped me understand the difference lol).

 

[Reacher]

Just to clarify I was talking about Rider Reboot, David Sanders. He has completed Andy's intro course but has decades in biomex and looks at both instrinsic and functional aspects (luckily he's helped me understand the difference lol).

Ok thankyou -i think I might sign up for his course

 

[BronsonNutter]

Thanks for posting this, sounds really interesting! Also about an hour from me so I will bear them in mind when I am fixed... I need ripping apart as a rider as I have so many bad habits but they are so rarely brought up, and riding a horse schooled so correctly/sensitively might make faults a lot more obvious (in comparison to my two TBs who bowl on regardless ignoring me ). Please do a write up if you have another lesson!

 

[Season’s Bleatings]

People have very different views on what "classical" training is, or isn't. It's one of the reasons why I never call myself a classical trainer (that, and not wanting to have to get a long flowing coat, twirly mustache or silly hat). If you take the view, as I do, that it means training out of the original (or classical....) 17th - 18th century manuals that are still the basis for training at the SRS or Real Escuela, then there is no jumping. You can of course take the principles involved (balance, lightness, suppleness, obedience) and apply them to any area of horse training.

A wee bit off track but… do you teach, Cortez?
Asking because I would love to know more, I am sure you’re on the same chunk of land as me, just not sure of your location!

 

[Reacher]

Thanks for posting this, sounds really interesting! Also about an hour from me so I will bear them in mind when I am fixed... I need ripping apart as a rider as I have so many bad habits but they are so rarely brought up, and riding a horse schooled so correctly/sensitively might make faults a lot more obvious (in comparison to my two TBs who bowl on regardless ignoring me ). Please do a write up if you have another lesson!

Yes sounds like my horse who carries on taking no notice of me (he just assumes I am wrong!)
Thanks I will do. ( I was going to book for Friday but it’s the day after my covid booster so possibly not such a good idea?)

 

[sbloom]

It's fascinating once you start working with some key fundamentals like rotation and stability of the rider's upper body, if we can correct both of these we help the horse to stabilised through their ribcage and even in walk, within 10 minutes or so of working through the concepts the horse is able to push up in front, becomes lighter, and suddenly everything is easier. If you're being "ignored" or things feel really hard ("more left leg, more, more!") then there's a lack of alignment somewhere. I'm only just starting to work with these concepts but they're an eye opener!