A numpty has a Classical dressage lesson

[Cortez]

A wee bit off track but… do you teach, Cortez?
Asking because I would love to know more, I am sure you’re on the same chunk of land as me, just not sure of your location!

Alas, no longer. I used to really love teaching, but I have retired. I can recommend some good people if you are interested.

 

[Season’s Bleatings]

Alas, no longer. I used to really love teaching, but I have retired. I can recommend some good people if you are interested.

If you don’t mind, yes please! I am in the North (Lisburn-ish) but can travel. Thank you!

 

[Reacher]

I had lesson #3 yesterday. I was hoping to have made some interesting progress for my next report , however as it has been a long gap , I thought I’d do an update anyway- (long gap was because I have to prioritise regular lessons on my own horse, who isn’t getting any younger, I’d like to do progress our sj/Xc, before we are too old!).

This time I wasn’t on the dressage schoolmaster, which i was slightly disappointed by as I was hoping to get my head around the seat aids for the canter transitions. This time I was on a horse they had bought and were reschooling, so the aids weren’t as established.

I’m going to put a caveat on this - a lot of what i’ll be writing feels like the opposite to what I’ve been taught in “normal dressage” and people may criticise - bear in mind classical is new to me and I may misunderstand things. So any errors are my fault, not the RI’s.

The horse was used to being on its forehand and pulling itself along . My own horse has the same issue (which we have been working on) so it was useful for me to be taught on a horse with the same problem.

So we started off and horse felt like it was falling in, so I automatically used my inside leg. I was told not to do so as the horse was using its inside hind much more than it’s outside leg and I would just speed up the inside leg. I was told to lift the horse‘s shoulder with my inside hand and use my outside leg to get more energy from the outside hind.

The inside hand is held at the d rings, fairly high, kept firm and still and the horse has to soften to it. The outside hand is kept soft and used to correct the horse if it over bends to the inside and ask it to yield to the inside hand. It’s the opposite of the firmer outside hand and soft inside hand and inside leg to outside hand I am used to being taught!

The horse was resistant at first then yielded and gave a fart. Apparently this is good as it shows the movement is moving the guts! ?

At first apparently the horse’s footfall was a bit stompy. Once the horse yielded to the inside hand and started to push from behind and apparently it’s steps became much lighter.

We then did some leg yield, aids are (if on quarter line and leg yielding to the outside track) to have more weight on the inside seatbone and drop the weight through that leg while opening the outside hand . If your weight is on the outside seatbone you block the horse. This further improved the horse’s self carriage and we went into trot and had some nice trot steps.

RI was pleased with the session, apart from my left toe turning out and still lifting at the heel, my position seems to be better. I have been working to try and open my hips and have been using stirrup straps to try and retrain my lower leg - hopefully my hips will loosen eventually!

The other problem is as I still have lessons locally on my own horse, a lot of what I’m told is contradictory, eg my local RI tells me to carry hands further forward with shorter reins , as per CDJ and her own GP instructor -so it is difficult to develop muscle memory in one style or the other. Maybe I should stick to poles/jumping for local lessons to avoid getting confused.

Later on I took my horse, mr H, for a quick hack and tried using my hands as described in the lesson. It did seem to partially work in that first he was resistant then brief periods when he softened.

It would be interesting to take him for a Classical lesson, and I will do at some point, though the hour and a bit journey on sh1te roads is off putting with a trailer.

I hope I can ride the schoolmaster in my next lesson there, in my first lesson the owner’s daughter demonstrated renvers and travers and I’d love to learn how to do them eventually .

Thanks to those who got to the end!

 

[Cortez]

Lovely to read your update, and that you're pursuing the lessons. I know it's all down to £'s in the end, but it would be beneficial if you could get your own horse involved.

 

[Reacher]

Lovely to read your update, and that you're pursuing the lessons. I know it's all down to £'s in the end, but it would be beneficial if you could get your own horse involved.

Thank you for your reply - I am keen to have your feedback as this is your area of expertise - was my description of the aids more or less correct?

Yes i definitely need their help to retrain mr H - and I realise it would be beneficial for his long term soundness too , the RI was describing how the scapula moves forwards from years of carrying a rider on its forehand and now I’m panicking about whether my own horse might have this issue (he came to me with a huge front end and weak back end which we have been improving, but it’s slow progress).

I’d like to learn the canter seat transition on their schoolmaster and have a bit better steering, then I will be taking along my horse.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you for your reply - I am keen to have your feedback as this is your area of expertise - was my description of the aids more or less correct?

Yes i definitely need their help to retrain mr H - and I realise it would be beneficial for his long term soundness too , the RI was describing how the scapula moves forwards from years of carrying a rider on its forehand and now I’m panicking about whether my own horse might have this issue (he came to me with a huge front end and weak back end which we have been improving, but it’s slow progress).

I’d like to learn the canter seat transition on their schoolmaster and have a bit better steering, then I will be taking along my horse.

As much as one can without being able to see the lesson, it sounds more or less right. There is a great saying which covers your situation: old/experienced horses for inexperienced riders - old/experienced riders for inexperienced horses. Or in other words, at least one of the partners has to know what they're doing.

 

[PapaverFollis]

That's really interesting because The Beast is an absolute monster for falling in at times... might have to give that kind of feel of things a try. Haven't had a lesson or done proper schooling for donkeys so we'd have to get over the shock of being asked to go in circles again first. ?

 

[Cortez]

That's really interesting because The Beast is an absolute monster for falling in at times... might have to give that kind of feel of things a try. Haven't had a lesson or done proper schooling for donkeys so we'd have to get over the shock of being asked to go in circles again first. ?

Can I suggest that you get a proper instructor to supervise? Just applying techniques that you've heard of don't usually help that much, you need someone to explain what's going on (or not, as the case may be) as it's rarely a case of "just do this, and this will happen".

 

[PapaverFollis]

If you can suggest a proper instructor that can get to the very far north of Scotland then I'd be delighted to use one. Until then I generally have to muddle through on my own, just trying stuff. It has served me OK so far. I just found this interesting because I've previously (with input from instructor back down in Cumbria) worked on the falling in with inside leg and more circles, with only moderate success really, so the approach described struck me as interesting. That's all I was saying! It gives me another feeling to possibly play with if and when we get back to some schooling.

I'd love an instructor that actually wanted to train horses in the way I want to train my horses but I've only encountered drive forward into a strong hand types up here so far. Then Covid derailed everything of course.

 

[Cortez]

If you can suggest a proper instructor that can get to the very far north of Scotland then I'd be delighted to use one. Until then I generally have to muddle through on my own, just trying stuff. It has served me OK so far. I just found this interesting because I've previously (with input from instructor back down in Cumbria) worked on the falling in with inside leg and more circles, with only moderate success really, so the approach described struck me as interesting. That's all I was saying! It gives me another feeling to possibly play with if and when we get back to some schooling.

I'd love an instructor that actually wanted to train horses in the way I want to train my horses but I've only encountered drive forward into a strong hand types up here so far. Then Covid derailed everything of course.

Yeah, I do understand, it is a problem. Thing is though, these little things can't really be taken out of an entire system of training - there really aren't "tips & tricks" (gods, how i hate that phrase!) in horse training - you have to go all in for things to really work. Good luck up there! (*waves).

 

[GoldenWillow]

Thank you for posting this, I've found it very interesting. I fell across a classical teacher purely by accident and discovered more through her in 4 years than I had in the previous 40. It changed so much for me and, as I discovered her as my health issues started increasing meaning I have less and less strength, the subtleties involved versus using a lot leg and hand has made the hugest difference to both of us.

I'm never going to great but the feeling of a slight tightening of my muscles here, a lifting of hand or a shift of weight and the response from my cob thrills me. Interestingly he can be super sensitive to "aids" and yet ignores me when I get out of balance which is depressingly happening at times due to my health issues.

I'm looking forward to how you get on.

 

[Reacher]

For someone without easy access to instructors there are online training courses - I had a years subscription to Dressage Mastery Academy - which is a complete online weekly training series produced by a GP rider. (ETA - this course is modern dressage not classical). It’s quite pricey as you have to subscribe for 6 or 12 months, but they provide a lot of material including written training material and access to videos of schooling sessions and lessons , live study sessions etc - you can get a bit of an idea from their free videos to see if it suits you. There might even be a month’s taster option.
No doubt there are similar online courses which others can recommend.

If you can suggest a proper instructor that can get to the very far north of Scotland then I'd be delighted to use one. Until then I generally have to muddle through on my own, just trying stuff. It has served me OK so far. I just found this interesting because I've previously (with input from instructor back down in Cumbria) worked on the falling in with inside leg and more circles, with only moderate success really, so the approach described struck me as interesting. That's all I was saying! It gives me another feeling to possibly play with if and when we get back to some schooling.

I'd love an instructor that actually wanted to train horses in the way I want to train my horses but I've only encountered drive forward into a strong hand types up here so far. Then Covid derailed everything of course.

 

[Reacher]

Thankyou, I am in the very early stages so I hope I will learn the same subtlety in my riding as you have. I’m interested to know who your instructor is if you don’t mind me asking?

Thank you for posting this, I've found it very interesting. I fell across a classical teacher purely by accident and discovered more through her in 4 years than I had in the previous 40. It changed so much for me and, as I discovered her as my health issues started increasing meaning I have less and less strength, the subtleties involved versus using a lot leg and hand has made the hugest difference to both of us.

I'm never going to great but the feeling of a slight tightening of my muscles here, a lifting of hand or a shift of weight and the response from my cob thrills me. Interestingly he can be super sensitive to "aids" and yet ignores me when I get out of balance which is depressingly happening at times due to my health issues.

I'm looking forward to how you get on.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Very interesting, thanks for posting .

I'm also rather puzzled (as you are) that you seem to be required to hold your hands closer to your body, though. I personally hate that style. I was so relieved when I had my recent returner rider lesson at a riding school, and the instructor asked me to have my hands highish and forwards, and to think of riding forwards to my hands - that is language I understand, and it works for me.

 

[Reacher]

Very interesting, thanks for posting .

I'm also rather puzzled (as you are) that you seem to be required to hold your hands closer to your body, though. I personally hate that style. I was so relieved when I had my recent returner rider lesson at a riding school, and the instructor asked me to have my hands highish and forwards, and to think of riding forwards to my hands - that is language I understand, and it works for me.

I am definitely not qualified to argue either for hands close to body versus further forward ? - I do find however that when in other lessons and I’m told to hold my hands further forward, there is the extra weight / leverage of your arms away from your body and gravity pulling them down.

 

[little_critter]

I am definitely not qualified to argue either for hands close to body versus further forward ? - I do find however that when in other lessons and I’m told to hold my hands further forward, there is the extra weight / leverage of your arms away from your body and gravity pulling them down.

I wonder if it depends on how strong your position and core is. If you have a core of steel you can hold your hands out in front with no detriment.
If you’re an average rider with a core of plasticine, keeping your elbows back helps to support your upper body.

 

[SBJT]

Does anyone on here do both the german style, as well as the more french classical type (I think that’s how they’re defined)?

Is the traditional German style more leg based?

I’ve been doing French classical for two years and it’s been an interesting experience especially as my horse is a hunter / jumper and we’re both used to using legs. Having to move between jumping lessons and Classical dressage in one week is a bit of a mind screw.
I find my horse actually prefers me using leg which ends up with me almost cheating slightly. However my legs aids have managed to become EXTREMELY subtle ?

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I would love to read more about the aid variations between the styles and in what circumstances. The soft outside rein is generally what has been steadily trained out of me lately ?

 

[Reacher]

Classical dressage Lesson 4 report!
I managed to book another lesson on the schoolmaster yesterday.

My ingrained issue with heels rising and my issue with left leg toes turning out is causing me grief! ? (This is a pain - I have walked like this - weight on toes and left foot turning slightly out since I was a child - and it is so exacerbated on a horse , especially as on treeless saddle, it hurts my leg trying to keep toe forwards, then as soon as I think of something else the heels lift and toes run out. And all the riding lessons over the past 15 years haven’t addressed it ?). However I am booked into an Andy Thomas session in a couple of months so fingers crossed he can help). Also noted I tend to sit more on right seat bone - common in right handed computer users.
Also got more grief about my tendency for weight to be more on front of seat - which I thought had improved.

This time I managed to get the canter transition - leg yielded into the corner then support with inside rein, weight down inside leg, and scooping action with outside hip towards inside hand, backed up by taps with outside leg. I managed canter transition on right rein straight away , the left took a couple of goes. Probably related to my tendency to sit more on right seat bone. Managed to maintain the canter and shorten and lengthen strides down the long side.

Changed the rein using walk pirouette - keep weight central and use outside thigh (I think) to push around.

So basically I need to stretch my seized up old ligaments and retrain my muscle memory so I can sit properly. How hard can it be!!

 

[I'm Dun]

Following my physio session with rider reboot, Ive just booked some lessons with a classic instructor near me. I'm hoping shes as good as the people who recommended her say!

 

[Cortez]

It will take a very, very long time to correct ingrained faults, but don't despair it's always worth it. The riding journey lasts a lifetime, that's part of the appeal for me.

 

[Reacher]

It will take a very, very long time to correct ingrained faults, but don't despair it's always worth it. The riding journey lasts a lifetime, that's part of the appeal for me.

Thanks, I know you are right. I just feel impatient.

Do you know of a good book on the theory of specifically Portuguese classical riding? I want something that explains in more detail what I’m told in the lessons.
Am still confused by contradictions eg I was told my weight should be on inside seat bone (if leg yielding from 1/4 line to the track - as weight on the outside seat bone blocks the horse from stepping under - which makes sense) - whereas “normal” dressage instructor’s say weight on the outside seat bone to encourage the horse to step under to carry the riders weight (which also makes sense) - and I’ve bought an old book by Alois Podhajsky of the SRS which also says weight on the outside seat bone . They can’t both be right!

I’m also looking for diagrams of body mechanics showing how seat affects horse’s back eg what my seat bones do to the horse’s back muscles when my toes turn out that is so unacceptable....
(RI recommended Sally Swift but I find her a bit waffley...I have an introductory book by Sylvia Loch which is the clearest I’ve found so far) . Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[sbloom]

Toes out or in will differ between different people, forcing a more forward toe position on hips that aren't built that way will inevitably lead to tension and lead to popping up out of the saddle.

Weight should on the inner thighs but on the whole saddles don't facilitate that, and riders all need individualised support to achieve that. Too much theory and practice is based on overcoming a saddle that doesn't support the rider in the right way.

Which seat bone to weight will need to be seen in the context of spinal and ribcage rotation in horse and rider - aligning in a way that de-rotates this for the horse ( always requiring us to show the same de-rotation first) is more likely than a blanket rule for a given movement, hence the contradictions.

 

[oldie48]

Reacher, I thoroughly recommend you find a good Equi-pilates teacher, even at 73 I've been able to improve so much about my position and my ability to give clear aids. It has also made me much more "body aware" so I recognise when I'm not sitting straight, have collapsed a hip slightly or have let my leg slip back too much when giving an aid. We do a lot of weight on moving the pelvis and also moving the legs whilst keeping the pelvis level, it's really helped me. I don't think I do "classical" dressage as such but if you do a Half 10m circle to the left, you will automatically have a little more weight in your left seat bone, if you then take that movement into leg yield right, using the outside right rein to keep the straightness you are already in the correct position to use your left leg to nudge the horse over and weight stays slightly on the left seatbone Ie inner. Something else I'm finding useful is to move my focus from what do I do to get a particular movement to what does my horse need to do to perform a particular movement and it's helping me to improve my feel. I've just read sbloom post and I think it explains why I've changed my focus. In the past I've always ridden a bit like "painting by numbers", the rider does this and the horse does this but of course every horse is different as is every horse /rider combination. I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense but it's more about riding the horse that's under you rather than the one in the book.

 

[planete]

If you want an insight into Portuguese classical training the books of Nuno Oliveira are well worth a read. He gives a very detailed description of the aids in the book "Principes Classiques de l'art de dresser les chevaux" if you can read French. I have tried finding it in English and failed , sorry!

Thanks, I know you are right. I just feel impatient.

Do you know of a good book on the theory of specifically Portuguese classical riding? I want something that explains in more detail what I’m told in the lessons.
Am still confused by contradictions eg I was told my weight should be on inside seat bone (if leg yielding from 1/4 line to the track - as weight on the outside seat bone blocks the horse from stepping under - which makes sense) - whereas “normal” dressage instructor’s say weight on the outside seat bone to encourage the horse to step under to carry the riders weight (which also makes sense) - and I’ve bought an old book by Alois Podhajsky of the SRS which also says weight on the outside seat bone . They can’t both be right!

I’m also looking for diagrams of body mechanics showing how seat affects horse’s back eg what my seat bones do to the horse’s back muscles when my toes turn out that is so unacceptable....
(RI recommended Sally Swift but I find her a bit waffley...I have an introductory book by Sylvia Loch which is the clearest I’ve found so far) . Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Cortez]

If you really want to go down the classical route the source books are those by de la Gueriniere, William Cavendish the Duke of Newcastle, and Pluvinel. Nuno Oliviera wrote several slim books, and Podhasky you already know about. You cannot learn to ride from a book alone, but they will provide interesting perspectives.

All riders learn differently, but I have found focusing on very specific things like seat bones, toes, elbows, etc. to be not that useful in the very early stages. For me, getting the right feel is more helpful, but that may not work for you.

 

[Reacher]

Thanks for everyone’s replies.
I’m not trying to learn from a book alone, but wanting to better understand the theory of what the classical RI is teaching me , (and why it seems to contradict the years of (and ££££ spent on ) BHS lesson I’ve had) especially if I want to progress under her system and have the option of learning the correct aids / new movements on her school master horse so I can then better school my own horse (or I can alternatively decide whether to remain under the BHS way).

@sbloom what you say makes sense, and I’m not sure if my difficult left leg can’t manage toes forwards or it’s just a case of retraining it - but i’d like to understand why the RI thinks this is so fundamentally important (or prove to myself that it isn’t fundamental ).

I think I get what you mean about spinal/rib cage rotation - thanks

@oldie48 that is a very good suggestion re equipilates - I don’t know of any local classes but I keep meaning to do online classes and I know @sbloom has recommended some before.
Your description of leg yield agrees with how I understood it.

Your comment “ move my focus from what do I do to get a particular movement to what does my horse need to do to perform a particular movement and it's helping me to improve my feel. “ This completely makes sense and I’ve been told this is how the classical system works.

@planete thankyou, this is exactly what I was looking for - I don’t know whether to hold out for an English language version or brush up my rusty French with the help of my dad (ex french teacher).

@Cortez thanks for listing those books which I’ll browse - I understand your point about not focusing on individual aspects like seat etc - it’s just those are what what the RI is trying to iron out in my riding, before I’m allowed to go further “the Portuguese say your post must be perfect before you do anything else!”.

I’ll update with my next installment in the numpty lesson series which may involve my horse Mr H being involved ...

PS I think my feel may be better than my technique - though that may be open to argument ?

 

[sbloom]

Instructors have been taught how they're taught - it's relatively new, that we're starting to understand that each horse and each rider is different. If you're sat too much on your seat bones then that needs changing, but its HOW to make that change. Until we have more people who look at horse-saddle-rider together, we're in the dark and using only outdated beliefs (what was perhaps science at the time but now superseded). It's a bit like SaddleFit4Life saying that if your toes stick out then the twist of your saddle is too wide - it's one possible cause but far from the only one and should not be used as a diagnostic, now we are finding out more and more about the rider's seat.

 

[oldie48]

Instructors have been taught how they're taught - it's relatively new, that we're starting to understand that each horse and each rider is different. If you're sat too much on your seat bones then that needs changing, but its HOW to make that change. Until we have more people who look at horse-saddle-rider together, we're in the dark and using only outdated beliefs (what was perhaps science at the time but now superseded). It's a bit like SaddleFit4Life saying that if your toes stick out then the twist of your saddle is too wide - it's one possible cause but far from the only one and should not be used as a diagnostic, now we are finding out more and more about the rider's seat.

This is so true, I've always tended towards a chair seat and some saddles have definitely not helped. I sit much better in the saddle that I currently use but looking at a video of me riding in it three months ago, I was much more "chair" than I am now. Two things have happened, the saddle has been checked and had a bit of flocking and i now use a very thin shim on the left. I've also been doing 2x weekly equipilates and I can now comfortably sit more correctly and I am much straighter. My aids are much clearer and I have more consistent use of my left leg but the huge bonus is that I can hack in walk on a big moving horse for several hours and I don't have painful chaffing, which had become a real problem. I've always used good trainers, some have nagged me to sit differently, the rest have just accepted that it's how I sit but I now realise it's something that can be improved.

 

[Reacher]

Instructors have been taught how they're taught - it's relatively new, that we're starting to understand that each horse and each rider is different. If you're sat too much on your seat bones then that needs changing, but its HOW to make that change. Until we have more people who look at horse-saddle-rider together, we're in the dark and using only outdated beliefs (what was perhaps science at the time but now superseded). It's a bit like SaddleFit4Life saying that if your toes stick out then the twist of your saddle is too wide - it's one possible cause but far from the only one and should not be used as a diagnostic, now we are finding out more and more about the rider's seat.

I mostly sit slightly tipped forwards with heels lifting but feels like am in chair seat when feet are in the correct position. The (classical ) RI makes me “lean back” to sit up then when I try and sit up with (different / local RI - on own horse )I get told to STOP LEARNING BACK ...?