A problem horse or not?

Because he is not your horse - I don't think you should try much more until the owner has been to your yard and handled him, and if they manage OK, shown you how to deal with him. Don't lunge him if he's Parelli trained, because that is one thing that really doesn't work well. You are giving him mixed messages, Parelli people send the "front end" away to work on a circle, and to ask the horse to stop they point at the hind end - then the horse is expected to turn and face them. A lot of room for confusion for you and the horse there isn't there?
I don't think you should change his tack, get other trainers out, get tough when leading him... any of that stuff, until you have consulted with his owner.
Having said all that, you've got him on loan with a view to buy. I hope he's cheap, because if he isn't I'm sure you could find a much more fun horse at a reasonable price in the current economic climate.
p.s. Tell his owner you're not his "mummy", he's a bleedin' horse. A horse that will be back at her yard soon if you can't get this sorted with a minimum of effort and expense on your part. Sounds to me as if she knows full well he's a handful and doesn't want to come to your yard where you will see she has problems with him as well.
 
Thank you too everyone who has replied.

He is ridden in bitless as his jaw is broken, vet has been out and said its more hassle than its worth trying to fix it, as this involves rebreaking the jaw, and as the previous owner has stated he copes well in a bitless bridle, they said in that case, leave as is.

I have spoken to his owner twice, and have just finished a call with her, and all made abit more sense, turns out he has tried alot of this with her that I didnt know about, the kicking out when lunged etc. So at least I know its a temporary boundary testing thing.

As for the parelli training, I dont think he is ''parelli trained'', I have spoken to owner and she said he knows lunging, he gets lunged in his parelli headcollar and leadrope as she has more control over him like this.

All your replies really have helped me, I just need to give it time and patience, and need to show him whos boss, a few elbows and some groundwork.

Paulineh, that would be brill if you could? Would I have to pay atall? Funds are a little tight at the moment! I dont mind contributing somehow at some stage. Will give you a pm sometime soon if nothing has improved by next friday, many thanks.
 
Kitsune said:
I am the owner of a difficult horse, given the right lee-way you'd likely not be able to do anything with him, but I have always been FIRM and straight with him and we get along just fine. He hates having his belly brushed, having his saddle on and girth tightened. he hates me being in the stable with him... but I'm the boss, so we do it, no big fuss, no smacks, bad behaviour is ignored (unless its really bad in which case he will have a slap) good behaviour is really praised. Now I can do everything with him, he still doesn't like it - but we have an agreement :D
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Sounds just like me and my horse, given a chance he will walk over me.

OP- My horse does the stopping coming out of the field, he's new one this winter is walking over to his stable then stopping one step in front and refusing to move. He does it to get a reaction and once he realised I wont reaction and waited for him to make the choice he soon gave up. I think some like to test new owners. Mine did lots but once mine got a bond with my other horse he soon settled.
 
I can only echo what other have already said.

Take things one step at a time, forget riding him for now and go back to basics before you get injured and have your confidence knocked, he's needs to learn to behave and respect you doing the most simple of tasks... like being tied up, groomed and led from A to B.

Ground work, plenty of this will not only earn you respect but it's good bonding time, if he's a senstive type you really do have to go back the very basics (treat him like a youngster) and make sure you both have a mutal understanding before you tackle anything else.

Set yourself really simple little weekly goals, something acheiveable that you can work on with your horse, you can even do this in the field where he's grazing with the other horses if it's a problem taking him out of the field.
 
tinal said:
i havnt read all the replies , but your horse sounds like he has been very unsettled by the move and is insecure.
i wouldnt say he is a problem horse just one that gets very upset with things changing and his insecurity comes out as bolshyness.
spend time getting to know him :)
id give him time to settle down before you think about sending him back .
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I'd agree with this....my horse was the same- bargy, wouldn't tie up, refused to be groomed/tacked-up/mounted/picked out.....he wasn't nasty, in fact he is a very sweet loving boy who was anxious and stressed and needed a 'leader'. He is a pure-bred arab so getting aggro with him was a no-no - it blew his mind and made him worse.

Firm but fair and consistent- reward good behaviour and make him repeat stuff if he does it 'wrong'. For example....if he swings around or moves over when tied up....move him back to where you want him. Over and over again, quietly and without fuss. He'll soon find that doing as he is told is less hassle than doing what he wants.

I've spent ages simply tacking and untacking, standing in the mouting block etc etc.....

I also found that this stuff is really really helpful for stress-heads....
http://www.maxavita.com/products/pet/maxacalm/
 
CuriousYellow said:
I'd agree with this....my horse was the same- bargy, wouldn't tie up, refused to be groomed/tacked-up/mounted/picked out.....he wasn't nasty, in fact he is a very sweet loving boy who was anxious and stressed and needed a 'leader'. He is a pure-bred arab so getting aggro with him was a no-no - it blew his mind and made him worse.

Firm but fair and consistent- reward good behaviour and make him repeat stuff if he does it 'wrong'. For example....if he swings around or moves over when tied up....move him back to where you want him. Over and over again, quietly and without fuss. He'll soon find that doing as he is told is less hassle than doing what he wants.

I've spent ages simply tacking and untacking, standing in the mouting block etc etc.....

I also found that this stuff is really really helpful for stress-heads....
http://www.maxavita.com/products/pet/maxacalm/
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Thank you for that, been very helpful :)
 
UPDATE! 13/11/10---

Omie was much better behaved groundwise today, didnt figdet atall, allowed me too brush him everywhere, even his forelock, with no headbanging or barging.

However, now we have problems riding. I had a friend ride him today as she has alot more confidence than I have at the moment with my back, she had him going nicely in walk and trot, then for no reason atall, he decided to go into canter, and buck, and she came off. She got straight back on him but she walked him round with no trot, he calmed down alot and seemed a bit more level headed again. He really enjoys having another horses company so I asked a friend to hack out with me on her horse, so we went together just down towards the bridleway. I was told he hates being behind and much prefers being at the front when hacking out, but turns out he hates being infront, and will only walk behind which was annoying because the horse I was hacking with also hates being infont. We were stopping constantly, and in the end turned round, but on the way back he obviousley knew he was going home, and at this point the other horse was in front quite a bit as I had to walk down and turn him around as he was misbehaving and backing into the bushes, so he trotted to catch up with her, totally ignoring my walk command and my tug on the reins, this only seemed to make this worse because once he had caught up with her, he wanted to be in front for some reason, and decided he would trot in a diagonal as I was pulling his right rein to make him turn, thus not allowing him to bolt. And as a result he threw his head as hard as he could continually till I let go off the reins, which I had to do because there was a car waiting and he was trotting all over the place, so I unmounted the second I had the chance, he was half halted half walking. Any suggestions as to why this behaviour has come about? Hes normally very good in company? And he has been so good riding him round the school to begin with. I am going to go back to basics this week, no riding atall. Pure lunging and ground work with him.
 
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he is trying it on woth youo to see how far he can push. He sounds like a very intelligent horse and it testing you on EVERYTHING! Keep on being firm, make him walk in front out hacking and DONT turn round for home till you have done what you came out to do and done it right! Try a loop hack so there is no turn for home and be FIRM FIRM FIRM!!!
 
Rowenna said:
he is trying it on woth youo to see how far he can push. He sounds like a very intelligent horse and it testing you on EVERYTHING! Keep on being firm, make him walk in front out hacking and DONT turn round for home till you have done what you came out to do and done it right! Try a loop hack so there is no turn for home and be FIRM FIRM FIRM!!!
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But thats just it, you CANNOT make him walk forward, whip him, he bucks and rears, kick him, he just stands there, it is IMPOSSIBLE unless on foot to make him walk forward when out riding. So what else is there to do? No matter how much I kick, how hard, or how many different noises I make, he WILL NOT move forward.
 
Really sorry to hear about all the problems you have been having. I can sympathise with your situation 100%.
My honest feeling is that its NOT your horse and I would send it back. I had a similar situation where I bought a horse with similar issues (not aware of before purchasing) and after much heart ache worked through it but had he been on loan I wouldn't have continued on with it as my confidence was destroyed.
Like other people have said there are plenty of horses out there without all of the issues you have mentioned. If you have a back injury already are you sure that you are in a position to carry on with the schooling that is required or more to the point do you want too? I also find alarm bells ringing when you mention that the owner has now said that she regonises some of the behavior and you stating that to her he was a pet.. I would be worried that there is something else that hasn't been mentioned, did she actually ride the horse?
If he has also thrown your friend off and behaved in a dangerous manner hacking I would not be riding the horse on the road or a hack for your own and the horses safety.
I don't want to sound negative but please be careful I have only just got my own confidence back and its very fragile and it sounds like you are already not 100% let alone your health. I also think it rather odd that the owner hasn't been straight round - I would in hours if it were my horse acting so badly and out of character not washing my hands of the situation...
 
Hi, for a start, his throwing his weight about on the ground is a classic example of him getting his own way, i.e. has no respect for you/humans on the ground, hes pushing you around and doing whatever he feels like. By the sounds of the owner, shes obviously too soft and talking of "mummy" and not wanting to "confuse him" is rubbish! Horses generally either respect humans or they dont, but this can depend on the human too! If he got away with it with her... of course he'll try his luck with you !!! Horses are like children, with no boundaries they run riot ! He'd probably welcome some black and white discipline! You don't say how old he is ? What type of breeding he is ?

Instead of using a schooling whip, (as an extension of your arm or leg), do you have a Parelli type carrot stick ??? They are rigid, thick to the end and uncomfortable for a horse on it's bony parts... thats if the horse chooses to try to run into the stick or over your space as it where ! You have to be firm though and use the stick firmly but fairly. Schooling whips are fine when riding to back up your leg, but Ive found, on the ground, with bargy dominant horses, Parelli type sticks work wonders! Schooling and lungeing whips have tiny fine ends and they will only tickle a horse of his size !

I think from what you've said he needs a competent, firm, no nonsense approach. You have to develop respect with a horse on the ground first, the problems double when you ride them! It sounds to me like you want to persist with him... it also sounds like you're maybe a bit nervous through your past accident. Horses pick up on the tiniest of hesitations and nervousness in your body language... and also all the strong calm stuff!

I only live half an hour drive from you and I don't have to pay for my fuel either (company car), if you would like me to come and see what I think for free, please get in touch. I would love to come and offer my experience/advice and maybe help you if I can. I've got a fairly difficult thorougbred mare myself and I've overcome all of the various problems I've had with her, i.e. barging behaviour, loading problems, catching issues, trying to bite when saddled/rugged, kicking out, trying to gallop off, even problems worming her! But not by "teaching her who's boss" harshly, as with heavy handedness, my mare gets aggressive and verging on dangerous... partly through fear I think on her part, as she obviously had a bad time of things before she came to me, but by understanding her issues and developing respect. With the right tools and techniques, a horses attitude can change literally overnight.... but you then have to be consistent with enforcing the new rules and reiterate it until it becomes the norm ! Hope to hear maybe :)
 
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In my opinion, it sounds like the previous owner is afraid of him and using it as an excuse that she doesn't want to confuse him. If I were in her position, I would be straight down there to help as I would want a safe and happy home for him.

I have a 'problem horse' and have had him for 10 months now. He used to walk all over his previous owner, dragging her round the field on many occasions, breaking his leadrope when tied up, refusing to be caught. He tried it on with me but has learnt that it's not acceptable - all I did was keep his head close to me and challenged him when he'd try to spin and tank off. He hasn't done it since.

I've never smacked mine whilst on the ground and wouldn't recommend using it. Your voice should be enough i.e. low and firm voice. If you want to keep him, you need to bond so smacking him so much would teach him that it's not pleasant to be in your company.

It sounds like his back is hurting so I would check it first (sorry if you have already). He also sounds like he is lacking confidence (won't ride infront) and will do anything to keep out of work. To help him, you need to be confident for him as well as yourself and to remain consistent and firm i.e. as above, if he moves, place him in the position you want without fuss or smacking and he'll soon get the picture.

If you'd like any other behavioural advice, feel free to PM me. I know how hard it can be, trust me!

Keep us updated!
 
Kitsune said:
I am the owner of a difficult horse, given the right lee-way you'd likely not be able to do anything with him, but I have always been FIRM and straight with him and we get along just fine. He hates having his belly brushed, having his saddle on and girth tightened. he hates me being in the stable with him... but I'm the boss, so we do it, no big fuss, no smacks, bad behaviour is ignored (unless its really bad in which case he will have a slap) good behaviour is really praised. Now I can do everything with him, he still doesn't like it - but we have an agreement :D
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Your horse sounds so like mine Kitsune! :)
 
You have all been so helpful!! Thank you too everyone very much..

As for ''leasing another horse'', no thank you, the reason being is I KNOW deep down he has an awful lot of potential, and deep own hes only doing what hes doing because he WANTS to know his place, as naturally horses are herd animals. I want to give him the best shot I can, whats the point in throwing him in between homes, if I send him back to her, he would end up somewhere else, hes too good a horse to miss, I just need to be more firm, and I realise that now from you lot helping me.

LisaG, I thought I did mention his breeding? Hes a Cob x Arab, is very cob looking, apart from the finer features, but is definately more arab in his work.
I live at BH65EL, and he is kept at BH23 8ES. He is 12 years old.
If you'd like to come down and see him sure, but I am not riding him anymore, not for a few weeks, I am literally going to go back to basics as if he was 2/3 years old, because I think this is going to help.
I think I will go with the parelli idea as apparently he responds very nicely to natural horsemanship.

What I don't understand is, she DID ride him when I went up to view him, and so did I. Neither of us trotted, I don't know why she didnt, but I didn't because I was still supposed to be on bedrest, as was shortly after my accident.

Thank you again to everyone for you help, it really has made me realise just how much I need to sit back, observe, and deal with things promptly because its going to become dangerous if I don't.


Omarkiam--
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It doesn't sound like he respects you at all. I agree with getting his owner to get him out of field etc and see how he is, it could be the move that's done it. If he doesn't improve for you soon though i'd also say he isn't the horse for you. He'll end up smashing your confidence into the ground if he carries on.
 
Please know I don't mean this in a bad way but I'm sure you want to enjoy your time with said horse and why go through all the agro if you and him both end up unhappy. That's why I said what I did above. And that doesn't mean you are a crap rider or someone who gives up easy. But I do think owner should have done more than walked around when you went to view him.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Please know I don't mean this in a bad way but I'm sure you want to enjoy your time with said horse and why go through all the agro if you and him both end up unhappy. That's why I said what I did above. And that doesn't mean you are a crap rider or someone who gives up easy. But I do think owner should have done more than walked around when you went to view him.

Terri
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I understand, sorry for biting so quick, only reason I did is because I think the horse deserves more. And I know with time I can give him what he needs, I have already seen improvement, so I am sure with time there will be more improvement. He is slowly but surely coming around, he just wants to know whether he can push me around, and I wont have it. Thanks for advice anyway. Ive already had 2 loans go sour, I really dont want to have to go through the heartbreak again either, and NO that is not the reason I am keeping him!
 
I think you should give him back. Horses and people need to suit each other, I think some are just better at hiding a clash than others.

The Welsh D I sold last year was very much like this - I worked hard to establish a relationship with him, I knew he'd seriously 'test' a new person though and you really had to work to make him "accept" you. As a result, the first home I found for him I made sure she knew I'd take him back if she couldn't cope. He was back within a week! Apparently my horse had been horrendous with her, pinning her against the wall, biting her (causing bruises), knocking her flat - you name it he did it in those few days, even though he wasn't anything like this bad with me in all the years I'd had him. I took him back and gave her her money back, as I knew he needed a certain type of home. Turns out that took the form of a small 14yr old girl! I explained his behaviour so they knew what to expect and again told them I'd take him back if they couldn't cope. He's been fine with her ever since! He just accepted her. Sounds like this could be the same sort of horse...
 
sorry to say i really don't think he sounds like the right horse for you.

i am not sure how experienced you are but he sounds like he has more tricks in his book than you have tools in your toolbox if that makes sense?

do you know how to knock a horse off balance to get it to move? works very well for leading and riding so if someone can show you how to do it that should help.
it is very non-confrontational so you shouldn't get a big reaction but i imagine this sort of horse will find something else to do very quickly.
 
I wanna just say one thing without people getting shirty with me... It's not that he is NOT the horse for me. Today proved that to me more than anything.

I went up to the farm about 2:30pm, went to his field, and instead of avoiding being caught, he TROTTED straight to me and rested his head on my shoulder. I took him in, he was totally perfect to be tacked up. He hacked out brilliant, saw a pig and did a very slight bolt (he hates pigs), but then he collected himself. And despite knowing he doesnt hack alone, I split him up from my friends who I was with, and took him the opposite way and he was PERFECT, with no bucking, no rearing, nothing nasty atall. He was good as gold. His only vice, if anything, is his headthrowing, which I wanted to try and control with a running martingale, but reluctant to do this as these shuld not be used on buckers, and given the fact I know he can buck I am a bit 50/50.

He really has totally changed personality over the last couple of days with the basics I have been doing, a bit of friendly encouragement etc. He was also perfect to bring in today, with not even one stop. Couldnt ask for more. I want to keep these thread updating as everyone who has replied has helped me amazingly!
 
Hi, I've never heard of not using a martingale on a bucking horse !? What's wrong with that? Just use one, adjusted properly of course so that it's actually doing something!

Glad he seems to have changed personality... maybe you're acting more like lead mare now with the pecking order lol !!!???

Good luck and give me a shout if you think you need help like I said, my mares slightly lame at the moment and has 4 weeks further rest to go, so got extra time on my hands.

:)
 
LisaG said:
Hi, I've never heard of not using a martingale on a bucking horse !? What's wrong with that? Just use one, adjusted properly of course so that it's actually doing something!

Glad he seems to have changed personality... maybe you're acting more like lead mare now with the pecking order lol !!!???

Good luck and give me a shout if you think you need help like I said, my mares slightly lame at the moment and has 4 weeks further rest to go, so got extra time on my hands.

:)
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Hiya, thank you for that, welcome to come down and see what you think if you like haha!

As for bucking and martingale, there is a post on here somewhere, not to be used on buckers, because it causes them to feel like they have even less freedom of their head, causing them to want to buck even more, and if they ''can't'', they may go out of their way to start misbehaving in other ways. I am working him through it, and pulling one rein closer to my stomach when he headtosses, which controls him quite well, as when he starts, a sharp tug, he instantly associates with head tossing having a negative effect. As for the bucking, riding him through it currently, with a body protector incase!
 
Well Im sure many people here will agree with me that you need control of the head of a bucking horse, i.e. up away from the ground ! You need the head up and to drive it on with your legs ! A running martingale dosen't stop a horse putting it's head down anyway ! They graze quite happily with a running on. It's only a fairly tight standing martingale which would restrict a horses full head movement.

I've got a couple of days off week after next, if you PM your contact details, maybe I'll come down and see how you're getting on xxx
 
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