A question about contact...

HufflyPuffly

HufflyPuffly

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So of Topaz's many 'quirks' :D her biggest issue for dressage is her contact! She was not backed and schooled with dressage in mind, and it only became the focus 3 years ago when she was ten, this hasn't stopped our progression and I'm happily bumbling around at medium now, go us :D.

She has always since the day we bought her opened her mouth as an evasion of the bit, she would also tuck her head behind the contact and refuse to take the bit forward or at all really. Lots of lessons, bit changes and noseband changes later mean that we can now say we have a good contact, in that she will take the rein forward and down and with a nice feel on the rein. She is and I think always be a little shy of the contact, so takes a certain about of sensitive riding to keep the softness and weight down the rein, but I can ride and think yes we feel a team and she's listening (well when she's not spooking but that is a different 'quirk' that is very much improved, in front of the leg and bingo no spooking ;)).

So to my issue, she still opens her mouth :(. No contact on the reins and she will close it, but contact (despite feeling nice up top and being able to do the moves) equals mouth open... She is schooled with no flash and a loose noseband (flash appears for shows to disguise it, but still loose), she goes best in her myler comfort snaffle as it fits her mouth shape well, (big tongue and fleshy lips, so not much room). Is there a way that anyone knows to eliminate such a hardened habit?

In lessons we have seen improvement and when I can relax her jaw it does help, so will continue with this, but I noted something which has led to this thread. I've tried her in a double just to see her reaction, as her contact in general has improved massively (aside from the mouth opening which yes I know is a direct contradiction to a good contact!), as sometimes experimenting with new bits/ tack is worth doing.

Well wow I was massively impressed! She seemed to take the contact confidently, our lateral work felt fantastic and in general we had a fabulous ride. I honestly thought she wouldn't like it, so it was a bit of a shock to the system for a contact shy horse to 'seem' to like more metal work in her mouth :o. Really felt like we were totally connected from hind legs, over the back and into the hands, a real wow moment of power and balance. I've ridden her in it three times now and still like her in the double, but you guessed it mouth open!

So this was where my quandary popped up, in the double I can ride off a seriously light contact (in a connected way) and she will close her mouth, but this is not the feeling I'm being taught to seek down the reins... I know classical routes lightness is strived for, so could this be the was forward or should I ditch the double until we're confident enough in the snaffle for no mouth opening?

So on a grey Thursday what would you go for? Lightness and double, or snaffle and a stronger feel?

Can she at 13 overcome her contact shyness enough to be reliable to keep her mouth closed? Should I continue in my bit search to try and find the holy grail of bits? We will be continuing to try and keep improving her confidence in the bit, but I'll admit its an odd one for me to have a horse feel so correct but then have them with their mouth open?

Thought's HHO'ers please :).
 
Immediate gut reaction is (I'm afraid) to persist with getting the relaxation in the jaw that you have noticed leads to mouth shut. Probably in the snaffle. I've learnt the hard way that papering over these cracks will eventually come back to bite you - it'll always be a weakness that you can work around for now but as you continue up the levels, you'll wish you had fixed it earlier.

Kira is like this if she's carrying tension base of neck/jaw. She wears a slightly loose drop noseband just to stop her worst abuses!! When the tight areas go loose and soft, then she shuts her mouth softly and feels super down the rein. I use her mouth closing as a sign that we've got the work right. It comes back if I challenge her (in her opinion) too much on a new exercise, but then disappears once again when she learns she can perform the exercise in a soft and relaxed way.

Yes, absolutely she can learn this at her age. Millie never opened her mouth during any of her training but we only really solved our contact issues (alternate hiding from the contact and crookedness) at the same kind of age, having done pretend dressage for all of our eventing years ;) .
By all means I'd keep experimenting a bit with the double - and again I find Millie is more confident to the contact in hers than the snaffle so it can happen. But I wouldn't want to ignore the mouth opening, if you are finding a way to fix that then I'd press on with that as top priority for now :)

Just MHO, what does trainer say?
 
Yep that was my gut feeling too, but the ride's in the double did sway me a bit it was a lovely feeling :D. Will continue primarily in the snaffle and add small amounts in the double.

Trainer hasn't seen us in the double yet as it took me a while to find anything I considered a good fit :).
 
If you can get the same kind of 'giving' that leads to her closing her mouth in the double then you won't be doing any harm:) My thinking behind sticking with the snaffle for the majority is simply that you were starting to establish the mouth shut periods with the snaffle, so you may be able to develop that faster by not changing too much.

Regarding the lightness in the double. I don't think 'weight' down the rein tells you anything - it's the consistent positive pull from the horse that is more important than how much you have in your hand,IMHO, anyway :p But be sure you've actually got that, even if it is very light, and that she's not just sat behind the contact kidding you - otherwise you'll just swap one problem for another. Have you got mirrors?
 
Have you tried a snaffle with a lozenge? I got a NS loose ring one, made all the difference to my horse who wouldn't accept the contact.
 
milliepops said:
If you can get the same kind of 'giving' that leads to her closing her mouth in the double then you won't be doing any harm:) My thinking behind sticking with the snaffle for the majority is simply that you were starting to establish the mouth shut periods with the snaffle, so you may be able to develop that faster by not changing too much.

Regarding the lightness in the double. I don't think 'weight' down the rein tells you anything - it's the consistent positive pull from the horse that is more important than how much you have in your hand,IMHO, anyway :p But be sure you've actually got that, even if it is very light, and that she's not just sat behind the contact kidding you - otherwise you'll just swap one problem for another. Have you got mirrors?
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You're on fire today :D, yes we are improving in the snaffle so I hope we can get there! Very conscious not to ruin this step forward by the double so will keep on with our snaffle.

Yes it's a hard concept to explain for me, what the rein/mouth/weight/pull should be :o, but she felt lovely in the double contained power that was still travelling forwards. It was false lightness that was our initial issue which we seem to have cracked so definitely do not want to go back there, it's taken this long to get to this stage :D. No mirrors sadly, have to rely on none dressagey mum for eyes on the ground at home :D, she tries but doesn't really get dressage and is far more a jumping/hunting kinda person :D.

Chloeap said:
Have you tried a snaffle with a lozenge? I got a NS loose ring one, made all the difference to my horse who wouldn't accept the contact.
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Tried many snaffles and kept with the lozenge for a long time as she did like it, but likes the Myler more as is more consistent and confident with it. Tempted to try a nathe with her to see what a soft bit can do.
 
me again :lol:
Was going to suggest nathe if you were tempted to do any more bit swaps - I find they are readily accepted and helpful to get that drawing forward feeling down the rein. I like the straightbar ones, they are fairly thin in the mouthpiece and it would give a little more stability compared to the myler (which is probably more stable than a french link or lozenge). You might find it's a bit of a blunt instrument after a while - eventually all the horses I've used them on have progressed to something with a link of some kind eventually, but sometimes return for a spell if they have gone a bit wobbly again.
 
milliepops said:
me again :lol:
Was going to suggest nathe if you were tempted to do any more bit swaps - I find they are readily accepted and helpful to get that drawing forward feeling down the rein. I like the straightbar ones, they are fairly thin in the mouthpiece and it would give a little more stability compared to the myler (which is probably more stable than a french link or lozenge). You might find it's a bit of a blunt instrument after a while - eventually all the horses I've used them on have progressed to something with a link of some kind eventually, but sometimes return for a spell if they have gone a bit wobbly again.
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Something to add to the collection I think and if Topaz doesn't like it Skylla might when she stops being a sick note ;).
 
Milliepops has said it, but I had a bit of a revelation when I put straight bar fillet baucher in Jams' fleshy, thick tongued gob. We had made huge improvements with the NS Verbindend, but there was still a 40m fight for contact after free walks/long rein jobs. We disguised the open mouth with a drop, but I find it's not needed. The only issue is not one for me but my son - he has only been riding a year and relies on the wrong sort of brakes as his bottom learns to drive through the saddle and his hands learn to what they are supposed to be doing. She won't stop for him.
 
HeresHoping said:
Milliepops has said it, but I had a bit of a revelation when I put straight bar fillet baucher in Jams' fleshy, thick tongued gob. We had made huge improvements with the NS Verbindend, but there was still a 40m fight for contact after free walks/long rein jobs. We disguised the open mouth with a drop, but I find it's not needed. The only issue is not one for me but my son - he has only been riding a year and relies on the wrong sort of brakes as his bottom learns to drive through the saddle and his hands learn to what they are supposed to be doing. She won't stop for him.
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Another one to consider, thank you for responding!

I think continuing down the snaffle route for the moment is a sensible idea :). She is good at stopping and stretching (took a long time to get there but we can now stretch and then be picked back up again :D), it's just this darn mouth opening! Not that she or me is perfect mind :D.
 
Competitive dressage has a lot to answer for........as does the notion that the snaffle is the be all and end all, the "kindest" bit. I also have a horse which used to open his mouth - all the time - when he had a snaffle on. It has taken 5 years, and a change to one-handed riding on a curb bridle, to finally have a horse which is confident and happy with the rider's hand. If your horse is happier in a double bridle then I would go with that, you can compete in a double from Elementary. You might also consider holding the reins á la Vienna (3 reins in the left, right hand on the right snaffle rein).
 
Cortez said:
Competitive dressage has a lot to answer for........as does the notion that the snaffle is the be all and end all, the "kindest" bit. I also have a horse which used to open his mouth - all the time - when he had a snaffle on. It has taken 5 years, and a change to one-handed riding on a curb bridle, to finally have a horse which is confident and happy with the rider's hand. If your horse is happier in a double bridle then I would go with that, you can compete in a double from Elementary. You might also consider holding the reins á la Vienna (3 reins in the left, right hand on the right snaffle rein).
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This is partly my wondering, what I've been taught is what competitive dressage is after, though I think the basics are the same. I did have an excellent lesson with a different rider who placed much more emphasis on a light touch, and I do feel this may be the way with Topaz but not at the expense of her not actually accepting the bit, and I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to be able to tell. Self carriage or bit avoidance, am I good enough to really be able to distinguish between the two?

Though I think I may try the reins, 3 in left and 1 in the right, and see what she thinks as she's not the most conventional of horses :D.
 
I'm finding this very interesting because I've had this issue before (horse prefers double to snaffle) and know I'm not the only one. Also, AlexHyde - are you sure it's a 'contact' issue and not a 'body' issue if you know what I mean? Ie. is your horse more comfortable in the mouth so less tense in the rest of its body which is what is being translated into his ridden work?

Surely with the double, so long as you have the curb rein quite loose, you're not faking the contact? In which case the horse prefers the mouthpiece? Can anyone shed some light on this?

You say it only happens when you take a contact. Is it possible that when you take a contact you are therefore asking for more weight on the hindlegs and maybe there's an underlying niggle which is causing a bit of discomfort?
 
Tbf just the weight of the reins will give a feel on the curb. Cortez I do agree that it's horses for courses but if the mare still has mouth open with the double then it's not a holy grail and there is still an underlying thing going on imo :)
 
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Another thing to think of that could be causing the mouth opening and is something often overlooked is soreness in the TMJ. It can be unnoticed until you take a contact and the pain can only be helped a bit by opening the mouth.

It could also be the thinner bradoon that is pleasing her. It can sometimes happen that the thinner bits work for some horses. Have you tried riding in just the bradoon bit?

Personally I like the classical lightness approach, but need to find a closer classical/french/Spanish etc trainer!
 
Thanks everyone more interesting points!

She is seen by a physio regularly, though I may see if I can tag on a visit coming up just to give her the once over. I'm as sure as I can be that she is physically ok but something not to be brushed off too easily.

Bits in the double I took a long time to decide on and find. So the bradoon is the myler mouthpiece but a loose ring rather than a eggbut, and the Weymouth is an informed choice one designed for a horse with not much room.

I think it's a long standing issue the mouth opening which should be continued to be worked on with a snaffle, as we are improving slowly. Her reaction to open her mouth was the same in many respects in both snaffle and double, but in the double I felt I could ride from a much lighter contact, still gain good work and she seemed more inclined to keep her mouth closed, but without expert eyes watching I'm not sure if we were correct or not?

Will carry on and keep introducing the double every now and again and see how we get on.

Thanks again :)
 
milliepops said:
Tbf just the weight of the reins will give a feel on the curb. Cortez I do agree that it's horses for courses but if the mare still has mouth open with the double then it's not a holy grail and there is still an underlying thing going on imo :)
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But it sounds like the mouth opening is much improved in the double?

My RI/ boss is not a dressage trainer (in fact, he's a professional SJ rider) but he is incredibly keen on lightness of touch. In fact, it's one of the key things he works on in my lessons. He prefers a stronger bit if it allows you to have a lighter contact - and surely if the OP's mare feels so much better in the double, that should not be ignored?
 
Have a look at the new Turtle Tactio by Neue Schule, ( dressage legal) which only came out this year and is designed for horses with sensitive or large tongues.I say this because I was in contact with them today funnily enough about my fussy mouthed boy who always wants to have his mouth opened to the point I have started riding him bitless (He's like a different horse to school now in terms of contact, softness and a closed mouth but thats another story!) Anyway I asked them if they had anything dressage legal that I could put him for competitions stating that he was happiest bitless. Might be worth a look http://nsbits.com/product/turtle-tactio/
 
HashRouge said:
But it sounds like the mouth opening is much improved in the double?

My RI/ boss is not a dressage trainer (in fact, he's a professional SJ rider) but he is incredibly keen on lightness of touch. In fact, it's one of the key things he works on in my lessons. He prefers a stronger bit if it allows you to have a lighter contact - and surely if the OP's mare feels so much better in the double, that should not be ignored?
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The mouth opening was similar in the double in that with a stronger contact the mouth opened, so it wasn't a eureka moment for that, but what it did allow was me to be able to direct her with a such a light touch that she didn't open her mouth against it. I won't be ignoring it and will keep playing with the double, but I'm not sure ignoring the issues with the snaffle would be too beneficial either.

I'm glad others prefer a light touch too as it goes with my idea of truly working 'with' the horse, you do see some riders so heavy with their hands (not harsh just heavy) and I never think their horses look happy in their faces...

claracanter said:
Have a look at the new Turtle Tactio by Neue Schule, ( dressage legal) which only came out this year and is designed for horses with sensitive or large tongues.I say this because I was in contact with them today funnily enough about my fussy mouthed boy who always wants to have his mouth opened to the point I have started riding him bitless (He's like a different horse to school now in terms of contact, softness and a closed mouth but thats another story!) Anyway I asked them if they had anything dressage legal that I could put him for competitions stating that he was happiest bitless. Might be worth a look http://nsbits.com/product/turtle-tactio/
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I haven't tried the turtle bit, looked at it when it first came out but the Myler made such an improvement over the lozenge snaffles I'd been using I didn't go for it. I think I may try the nathe first and then come back to the the turtle bit if it doesn't make a difference.

As I think the mouth opening is far more a training/ confidence issue than really a bit issue, and I think the softness of the nathe may help her relaxation and confidence more than the shape of the turtle bit, but obviously as with anything with horses I'm probably entirely wrong :D.
 
Had a search through HHO archives and someone had previously posted this video in a similar thread...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg

It's a bit cringe but really fascinating.

Is it possible that because she has such a fleshy mouth a 'softer' bit ie. snaffle is actually causing her more discomfort because it is pushing on the bars of her mouth, whereas with a stronger bit you don't need to take a stronger contact and so she's actually more comfy?

I'm interested because the horse I'm riding at the moment who also has a very fleshy mouth and has similar contact problems which seem to resolve themselves with a rubber pelham.
 
Kylara said:
Personally I like the classical lightness approach, but need to find a closer classical/french/Spanish etc trainer!
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Friend of mine trains with Goncalo Carvalho who is Portuguese and seems to be pretty classical for a competitive rider. He's just been over to do a clinic somewhere in your direction. Worth sourcing one of his students in your area maybe?
 
itroteverywhere said:
Had a search through HHO archives and someone had previously posted this video in a similar thread...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg

It's a bit cringe but really fascinating.

Is it possible that because she has such a fleshy mouth a 'softer' bit ie. snaffle is actually causing her more discomfort because it is pushing on the bars of her mouth, whereas with a stronger bit you don't need to take a stronger contact and so she's actually more comfy?

I'm interested because the horse I'm riding at the moment who also has a very fleshy mouth and has similar contact problems which seem to resolve themselves with a rubber pelham.
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I think that in part is why she went better in the double yes. But I'm not sure if I would gain long term to not try at least to improve her comfort/ confidence in a stronger contact.

Funny you say that about the rubber Pelham, as I jumped her in one for a number of years, fairly successfully but with no thought to correct dressage work ;).

I think I'll try a nathe to see if I can improve on the snaffle reaction. Glad I posted its given me lots to think about :), thanks everyone.
 
If you are getting your physio out to check the TMJ, as above, make sure they check the hyoid as well as that links to the tongue and many mouth issues originate there.
 
My horse draws back behind the contact in a snaffle. He is 100% happier in the double. I use it with a lip strap so the curb chain is held still.'
In the snaffle he curls back and becomes far to light in the hand. In the double in have a "positive" feel and connection .
I never school in a snaffle anymore as what is the point in upsetting him.
I do hack and jump him in a snaffle but with a micklem, he is happy in this as the bit is kept still again. He cannot bear the movement of the snaffle. He is 15 , I've owned him for ten years and he competes at advanced so I know him very well.
 
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