A question for barefooters...

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Snipe

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This is a genuine (but maybe a bit stupid :o) question, so please no barefoot vs shoes squabbles!

I've been reading the blogs on the Rockley Farm website, and the argument for barefoot seems compelling, esp for horses that aren't 100% right in shoes. I have to wonder, though, if barefoot horses can do everything that shod horses can do, why were shoes invented in the first place, and why did they become widespread?
 
I have both shod and had barefoot horses. personally i prefer barefoot, but it really depends on the horse. I have had horses (especially white hooved ones) which need shoes because their hooves are too soft to handle even a hack out on the road once a week.

Ive had other horses which then cannot wear shoes because their feet break.

But it really depends on how much work a horse does and some need protection from the roughness of the road.

Theres alot of reasons to shoe your horse and alot of reasons why people dont.

I dont shoe mine because most have very hard hooves and can handle a little road work, I dont like shoeing encase they kick each other and mine are not in any major work and therefore do not require shoes.

Shoes are also used for medical, used to right hoof deformities, leg problems and all sorts.
 
Snipe said:
I've been reading the blogs on the Rockley Farm website, and the argument for barefoot seems compelling, esp for horses that aren't 100% right in shoes. I have to wonder, though, if barefoot horses can do everything that shod horses can do, why were shoes invented in the first place, and why did they become widespread?
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I think it was because horses began to be kept in situations that didn't promote good hoof health, and so hooves needed artificial protection. If you look at any of the barefoot literature, the aim is to have the horse managed in a way that promotes general good health, and the foot is used as a kind of barometer of this.
Nowadays, there does seem to be a feeling in the horse world that working horses need shoes, often with no real investigation of whether this is true or not. I think there are many shod horses out there who would happily carry on doing the same job without shoes, but their owners have never considered that alternative. There are also many horses who are kept in situations that are not absolutely ideal for their hoof health and so do need protection for some of the work that is asked of them - I count mine among those as I can't keep them during their resting hours on the types of surface I need them to work over. Fortunately now they can wear hoof boots, so have the best of both worlds, but in the past this would have been impossible because we only really now have the materials available to make hoof boots that actually work.
 
Because if you put a horse in a stable to keep it ready for work, as working horses were kept in past ages, then the hoof deteriorates. It is manure rather than urine which affects the hoof, the urine affects the lungs more. Also if you give them cereals to eat in any quantity that also can affect the feet - strange as it may seem. They can only feed when they are not working so the feed needs to be more concentrated than just grass, so cereals were the obvious thing to give them.

So if you are an army that needs the horse to work every day you need a sound horse, so you devise a method to protect the hoof, hence shoes. I looked at one of the earliest pictures in the National Gallery, about 1350, and it was a painting of a knight riding a horse and the horse clearly had shoes nailed to his feet. Other methods were used, if you look at the earliest Roman hoof protection, using leather but that obviously didn't work very well. There were a lot of skilled metal workers.

Ponies were long ridden unshod, but they were kept out and ridden from the field. Also being smaller and living a more natural life, moving over large distances, they genetically have better feet. One of the reasons that TBs have "bad feet" is that they can be shod from a very young age which prevents the foot growing and developing correctly.

If you look on the Rockly Farm website you will notice that the horses are not kept in stables, they are encouraged to keep moving 24/7 over all sorts of terrain, and they are not fed large quantities of cereals, in fact there is a lot of research and trial and error over the correct diet for individual horses.

In the wild a horse would roam about 30 miles a day, and it is this stimulus whick goes a strong hoof from the inside.
 
waggerz said:
I have both shod and had barefoot horses. personally i prefer barefoot, but it really depends on the horse. I have had horses (especially white hooved ones) which need shoes because their hooves are too soft to handle even a hack out on the road once a week.

Ive had other horses which then cannot wear shoes because their feet break.

But it really depends on how much work a horse does and some need protection from the roughness of the road.

Theres alot of reasons to shoe your horse and alot of reasons why people dont.

I dont shoe mine because most have very hard hooves and can handle a little road work, I dont like shoeing encase they kick each other and mine are not in any major work and therefore do not require shoes.

Shoes are also used for medical, used to right hoof deformities, leg problems and all sorts.
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Interesting, thanks. What of the self-trimming described on the Rockley Farm website? It seems to suggest that allowing horses feet to develope naturally, and trim themselves in the way they want, is actually more effective for treating confirmation issues etc?

soloequestrian said:
I think it was because horses began to be kept in situations that didn't promote good hoof health, and so hooves needed artificial protection. If you look at any of the barefoot literature, the aim is to have the horse managed in a way that promotes general good health, and the foot is used as a kind of barometer of this.
Nowadays, there does seem to be a feeling in the horse world that working horses need shoes, often with no real investigation of whether this is true or not. I think there are many shod horses out there who would happily carry on doing the same job without shoes, but their owners have never considered that alternative. There are also many horses who are kept in situations that are not absolutely ideal for their hoof health and so do need protection for some of the work that is asked of them - I count mine among those as I can't keep them during their resting hours on the types of surface I need them to work over. Fortunately now they can wear hoof boots, so have the best of both worlds, but in the past this would have been impossible because we only really now have the materials available to make hoof boots that actually work.
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Ah yes, that makes sense. Particularly a few centuries ago when there was little knowledge about nutrition etc.

Is it impossible then to keep a horse barefoot (hoof boots aside) if you ride it regularly on the roads, but can't turn it out at all on a similar surface?
 
Orangehorse said:
Because if you put a horse in a stable to keep it ready for work, as working horses were kept in past ages, then the hoof deteriorates. It is manure rather than urine which affects the hoof, the urine affects the lungs more. Also if you give them cereals to eat in any quantity that also can affect the feet - strange as it may seem. They can only feed when they are not working so the feed needs to be more concentrated than just grass, so cereals were the obvious thing to give them.

So if you are an army that needs the horse to work every day you need a sound horse, so you devise a method to protect the hoof, hence shoes. I looked at one of the earliest pictures in the National Gallery, about 1350, and it was a painting of a knight riding a horse and the horse clearly had shoes nailed to his feet. Other methods were used, if you look at the earliest Roman hoof protection, using leather but that obviously didn't work very well. There were a lot of skilled metal workers.

Ponies were long ridden unshod, but they were kept out and ridden from the field. Also being smaller and living a more natural life, moving over large distances, they genetically have better feet. One of the reasons that TBs have "bad feet" is that they can be shod from a very young age which prevents the foot growing and developing correctly.

If you look on the Rockly Farm website you will notice that the horses are not kept in stables, they are encouraged to keep moving 24/7 over all sorts of terrain, and they are not fed large quantities of cereals, in fact there is a lot of research and trial and error over the correct diet for individual horses.

In the wild a horse would roam about 30 miles a day, and it is this stimulus whick goes a strong hoof from the inside.
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Very interesting reply, thank you. I wasn't sure if the horses at Rockley Farm were stabled at all. So is it feasible to keep a horse barefoot and stabled? Not talking 24/7 stabled, but maybe in at night and turned out in a field during the day. And if they are in at night, what bedding would be best, given that, as you say, standing in poo is bad for the feet?
 
I must admit that I have found that ours manage better without shoes than they did in shoes - no fault of the farrier as he did a good job shoeing them, they just do better on their own 4 feet!

Between them ours do dressage, SJ (up to newcomers), showing, mega hacking over all terrains, and from friday endurance too. They do alot of work so if, for whatever reason, their work is less for a week or so then we do get too much horn growth and have to make sure to fit a couple of long road hacks in. The idea that barefoot horses manage ok so long as the work is limited on wearing surfaces is completly disproved by the many people with hard working barefoot horses - even over long distance endurance, just amazing! I am also happier working ours in faster paces on the road as we don't have slips and now their digital cushion and frogs are properly developed with a good heel first landing, then there is a huge amount less worry about concusion. I used to hate riding on the road in shoes as some of the little hills round here have slippy tarmac on and it was horrible slipping down them.

Barefoot horses are capable of at least as much as shod horses, with the provisio that the owner is able to offer the right management for them. This can be tricker with some horses than if they are shod as they is no shoe to hide the early starts of any problem (usually with nutrition).
 
I have both of mine unshod. The pony was unshod when I got her and she doesnt do enough work to warrant shoes, plus her feet are as hard as nails. Seeing as how she lived wild for years without farrier intervention at all I'm certain she can manage barefoot with trimmings :D My TBx is unshod - I've never had her shod (had her since she was 2). Her feet hardly grow at all but are nice and hard tho they do have the odd little crack in them occasionally. My farrier is happy for me to leave her unshod and has even recommended some hoof boots for her for hacking, jumping on grass etc :) The other reason she's unshod is because she kicks other horses and although shes kept on her own she has been known to break out :rolleyes:
 
My horse has been barefoot and shod. I prefer barefoot, but he is not kept in ideal conditions, so I struggled to have a 100% hoof. He is currently shod.

When his shoes first came off, after being in shoes for about 4 years, his feet changed a huge amount. He hasn't got perfect conformation and it was obvious that the feet were changing in order to support the horse above. (In fact one reason his shoes came off was that he developed a strange lump above his knee and when the shoes were removed the lump very quickly disappeared).

Smooth tarmac roads aren't much of a problem to a barefoot horse, it is the rough, stoney tracks that can be difficult. A sand arena is very good as it exfoliates the sole of the hoof and encourages stronger growth.

The Rockley Farm horses hunt over the roughest, stoniest tracks on Exmoor that you can image - and there are videos of them doing so, but they are the experts and have been doing it for years. There are plenty of other people who hunt and do endurance barefoot.
 
ThePony - the heel first landing is something I'm particularly interested in. Is it the case that *no* shod horses land heel-first? (I'm sure I remember seeing photos of some that do). I know my horse doesn't land heel-first (he's shod in front and barefoot behind - doesn't land heel first in front or behind).

OrangeHorse - That's another thing I'm interested in; the changes that happen to a shod hoof when it goes barefoot. Is it possible, once the hooves have changed to support the horse, to put shoes back on (if they're necessary!) and keep the improvements to the foot?
 
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OneInAMillion said:
Barefoot is brilliant but for example I think a horse that was hunting would struggle without shoes having to pound down roads constantly in trot
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In my opinion, the impact of a shod hoof, that does not allow the natural expansion and contraction of the hoof, which is part of the shock absorbing system of a horse's leg, on a hard road surface is infinitely more damaging than trotting barefoot on the road.

I ride my own horses shoeless and the other day had to ride a shod working livery. The jarring sensation of the hooves hitting the road nearly shook my teeth out - and that was just trotting about 20 metres on tarmac! Lord only knows what it is doing to the poor things legs.
 
Snipe said:
ThePony - the heel first landing is something I'm particularly interested in. Is it the case that *no* shod horses land heel-first? (I'm sure I remember seeing photos of some that do). I know my horse doesn't land heel-first (he's shod in front and barefoot behind - doesn't land heel first in front or behind).
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I must admit that I don't think I have suficient experience to say wether no shod horses land heel first, I might ask my farrier as I'm intreaged to know now!

A heel first landing is advantageous as it allows the horse to use the concission limiting areas at the back of the hoof - the digital cushion and the frog mainly. It is unusual for this to develop as soon as the shoes are taken off the horse as the digital cushion can be thought of as a muscle that needs gentle work suited to its lack of development initially to allow it to slowly build strength. Even a tiny bit of thrush can prevent a heel first landing too. An aim certainly.

Although ours have been barefoot for over 7 months now, the heel first has been slow to develop due to niggles with thrush, our farrier guageing just what they need trimming wise, and most crucially getting their diet right as it turns out that our grazing is fairly awful! We are on to that now so we are looking forward to continued improvement as their improved diet has time to take effect in the quality of hoof grown.
 
ThePony said:
I must admit that I don't think I have suficient experience to say wether no shod horses land heel first, I might ask my farrier as I'm intreaged to know now!

A heel first landing is advantageous as it allows the horse to use the concission limiting areas at the back of the hoof - the digital cushion and the frog mainly. It is unusual for this to develop as soon as the shoes are taken off the horse as the digital cushion can be thought of as a muscle that needs gentle work suited to its lack of development initially to allow it to slowly build strength. Even a tiny bit of thrush can prevent a heel first landing too. An aim certainly.

Although ours have been barefoot for over 7 months now, the heel first has been slow to develop due to niggles with thrush, our farrier guageing just what they need trimming wise, and most crucially getting their diet right as it turns out that our grazing is fairly awful! We are on to that now so we are looking forward to continued improvement as their improved diet has time to take effect in the quality of hoof grown.
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My grazing is also fairly poor. Though my horse is a TBx, he actually has pretty good hoof quality, but I'm not sure I can provide the necessary conditions to promote good hoof growth. He's kept stabled at night, and I wouldn't really want to change this.

His backs have only been off for a month, so maybe the heel-first landing will still come.

Chico Mio - I tend to agree with you about shod horses on roads, seems to me that a good barefoot would be preferable, so long as the horse is comfortable.
 
I think the white hoof being weaker is a myth - otherwise wild horses with white hooves would be lopsided?

As to keeping a horses part stabled - that is my problem, BUT it depends on the individual horse and there are horses kept in stables that are OK. It is partly genetics, partly if the horse was able to grow a strong horse as a youngster, there are just so many factors all you can do is get well informed, read Feet First, and give it a go.

Even if you don't continue, or shoe for half the year, then any time without shoes is very good and it used to be common to have shoes off when horses were rested, but not many get a long rest now they are ridden all year round.

I find that my horse is more surefooted barefoot, and seems to keep his balance better, part of the trouble is that I am such a worry-guts that it takes over my life and I constantly worry if he is going to be OK for the ride/work I wanted to do.
 
OneInAMillion said:
I meant that trotting/cantering down the roads 3/4 times a week like hunt horses do could completely wear the feet down
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On a healthy well conditioned barefoot this just doesn't happen.

All of my clients are urged to do more and more road work not less, including those doing endurance. We have yet to wear a foot out and they still need trimming.

However I do find that many people have no idea what is a healthy hoof height and have horses on feet that are far too tall believing in good faith that this is correct. Tall hooves may be common but are not healthy.
 
My horse has some white feet, but they don't seem any weaker than his black ones, so I think its a myth.

Thank you all for your input - I think I will read Feet First, then give it some serious thought. After all, if it goes t*ts up I can always put shoes back on :cool:.

ETA - LucyPriory, I have the opposite problem to this - my horse has quite flat feet with underrun heels. From what I've read, barefoot seems to be an effective solution?
 
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OneInAMillion said:
I meant that trotting/cantering down the roads 3/4 times a week like hunt horses do could completely wear the feet down
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Very popular misconception, but no truth in it at all. So long as the work is built up steadily (like you would if bringing a horse back into work) then there is no limit really! The hoof responds exceedingly well to increased abrasion and builds up hardness/thickness of horn and sole as well as increasing the growth rate. During the spring and autumn particularly (just the times of year we have the time!) we spend an awful lot of time hacking and covering alot of distance - still need trims though!

Snipe - feet first is ace and a great introduction to the ideas behind the benefits of barefoot, it is also brilliant for info on nutrition wether you decide barefoot is right for you or not.
 
Just to answer your original question, there is no record of horses being shod by anyone like the Romans, Greeks or Egyptions all of whom built roads and used horses extensively.

The first oblique reference to shod horses is in the Koran about 600 AD.

If the Arabs were indeed shoeing horses it would be a natural thing for the Crusaders to adopt shoes, as armour was extensively used on both men and horses and it would have been a small step to nail shoes on horses feet.

Horses were used as weapons at this time and were trained to kick and strike out, as demonstrated now in Classical Dressage, much more effective with steel clad hooves.

Any benefit to horses would have been incidental and horses being brought into castle stables would have been subject to increased incidences of thrush, which would have been difficult or impossible to cure at this time.

The assumption that modern roads or workload is the reason for shoeing is misplaced, it is more likely that current poor health in relation to horses feet is down to diet, keeping horses stabled and lack of exercise.
 
Snipe said:
Is it impossible then to keep a horse barefoot (hoof boots aside) if you ride it regularly on the roads, but can't turn it out at all on a similar surface?
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I think this has been answered quite well already, but for mine the roads are not a problem at all - they are nice, smooth, predictable surfaces. Most of my hacking is on forest roads which in places are just packed granite hardcore with fairly sharp edges - I suspect the most challenging surface possible - and two of the horses struggle on that. The one with white feet is fine of course!
 
ThePony - Thanks for your help :)

Pale Rider - Fascinating subject. I presume once they'd come into common use then people started to notice that horses that were slightly unsound barefoot looked sound with shoes on, and the whole thing snowballed.

soloequestrian - Good to know it can be achieved. Are yours stabled at night? I'm a bit concerned about whether I have the facilities available to properly condition the feet.
 
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Snipe said:
ThePony - Thanks for your help :)

Pale Rider - Fascinating subject. I presume once they'd come into common use then people started to notice that horses that were slightly unsound barefoot looked sound with shoes on, and the whole thing snowballed.

soloequestrian - Good to know it can be achieved. Are yours stabled at night? I'm a bit concerned about whether I have the facilities available to properly condition the feet.
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I think it is likely that horses at this time were predominantly owned by the rich and were stabled and had a richer diet. Oxen were the main beast of burden, horses were not used in agriculture. Confining horses, unclean conditions and altering their diet would have caused the problems seemingly cured by shoeing, perhaps the origins of the lucky horse shoe, there is no doubt that the 'blacksmith' was seen as a powerful figure in medieval times, perhaps turning lame horses sound.
 
OneInAMillion said:
Barefoot is brilliant but for example I think a horse that was hunting would struggle without shoes having to pound down roads constantly in trot
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To be honest when my horse was barefoot that was when she was most comfortable - it was stoney tracks that got her

We did 5 years and hunted each weekend - her feet just can't cope with our new stoney yard and she has a job to do at the end of the day - she lost loads of weight as I cut her feed/grass down so much and she still couldn't walk out. That's why horses had shoes - they had a job to do and did a lot more work than we ask of them these days.
 
Ladylina83 said:
To be honest when my horse was barefoot that was when she was most comfortable - it was stoney tracks that got her

We did 5 years and hunted each weekend - her feet just can't cope with our new stoney yard and she has a job to do at the end of the day - she lost loads of weight as I cut her feed/grass down so much and she still couldn't walk out. That's why horses had shoes - they had a job to do and did a lot more work than we ask of them these days.
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I see where you are coming from, but taken all round I suspect horses had to work a lot harder for a living in the 5,000yrs plus of domestication prior to being shod. I think that the way we house and feed horses is more of a problem than the 'job' or 'work', we expect now. I see a parallel with what we have done to our children in the Western World with high fat high sugar diets and the obesety and other nutritional diseases.
 
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