A sad tale

[Clodagh]

I am struggling to think that MT is advertising a junk yard dog. Poor bugger. And having said he needed an experienced home thry then sent him off with the first person that turned up with the money?
And CC I have nothing specific against mals etc, but why would you cross a pit or mastiff with a GSD type dog? Surely only if your penis was smaller than your IQ?
I am going to write to them, I feel so strongly about this.

 

[stangs]

And CC I have nothing specific against mals etc, but why would you cross a pit or mastiff with a GSD type dog? Surely only if your penis was smaller than your IQ?

Playing the devil's advocate here, but perhaps if you wanted a Mali that was slightly less neurotic, and had that bully look to it? Or a mastiff type with more trainability and drive?

Either way, poor, poor dog. Let down by the people that trained it, those that got rid of it (how did it get from Germany to Wales?), the people that allowed that man to rehome it, and by the new owner in his management of it. Might have lived out the rest of its years in peace had it gone to a suitable home.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't know, I see no merit whatsoever in such a cross.
I'm not really into the other breeds mentioned and 'civil/personal protection' training isn't my thing. I like to deal in 'knowns', particularly with regard to genetics.
I'd ask what someone would need protecting from and why, when choosing a cross like this.

 

[ester]

They make it sound like he would have been ok had he spoken fluent german.
Poor kid.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think it's a case of staying in one's lane.
'Loving dogs' isn't enough, they need to be understood as well.

 

[Moobli]

Horrific.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And now it has been reported that a 3 year old boy has been killed in a dog attack ?.

https://www.facebook.com/100064580683726/posts/370923658403654

 

[Wishfilly]

In fairness to MT, just because a dog is a certain breed of dog, like a Malinois, doesn't mean it will bite.
There is a dedicated breed rescue for Malinois/crosses/dogs of that ilk, which tries to link up dogs to security or working homes, but they are very experienced with those breeds and have good connections in those breeds and in that industry.
None would have probably considered doing so with a dog of that age, though.

I think the video suggests they knew the dog wouldn't thrive in a pet home, though- they talk about wanting to rehome him to a yard where he could "have his own space" and talk about guarding behaviours several times. They do also talk about someone wanting a project, but the video implies to me that they know someone might have issues walking this dog in public.

I know some rescues local to me will link up with breed specific rescues if they feel a particular dog needs a particular type of home- so perhaps they could have asked a breed specific rescue for advice.

It does feel to me like the rescue have been a bit negligent here- especially as the judge said the owner couldn't have known the dog would react like that in public. Either that, or the owner completely misrepresented the home they would offer to the rescue, but that doesn't seem to match up with the judge's comments.

This isn't about the breed for me, as such- it's more about the fact the rescue knew the dog had been trained for "protection work" and they talk about him guarding several times. Surely that's enough to imply there could be a bite risk?

 

[SAujla]

And now it has been reported that a 3 year old boy has been killed in a dog attack ?.

https://www.facebook.com/100064580683726/posts/370923658403654

This is so unbelievably sad.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Awful news.

 

[cbmcts]

That is shocking. While MT is not a rescue that I'm a huge fan of, please do not underestimate the general blindness of those who want to rehome a dog even (or especially?) if it's flagged up by the rescue as having issues.

Recently the breed rescue I volunteer with put out a special appeal on Facebook (yes I know) for a long termer in kennels who is a challenge and will be in her new home, particularly in the first few weeks/months. She is not aggressive at all but is an Eastern European lines rott and very drivey and strong both in body and mind! She reminds me of a mali but in a black and tan coat. Very trainable and clever but quite hyper and we know that she would take time to settle in a new home with new people. I took the calls about her and had a mad flurry of them for couple of days. Please note that the write up said - experienced home, no children or other animals.

First call, within minutes of the post going up was a so called trainer who wanted her to train as a protection dog and then SELL her. That'll be a hard no then. So he offered to come and 'train' any rescues for free, the rescue would just have to pay for the shock collars...

Next call, ex army guy, sounded good until it came out that he meant as an experienced owner that his family had had a rottweiler 20 years ago. He also worked 12 hour shifts but would have someone go in to let her out but he'd walk her miles at the weekend. Kids, well not at the moment but he and his partner were trying for a baby but they'd have all the pregnancy to train her to be ok with a new born.

Another guy, his 8 year old was great with dogs, it would be fine...

Women with a 12 year old daughter, hamsters and a house rabbit (not for long would they have small fluffies and since when is a 12 year old not a child?)

My favourite was a bloke who informed me that he was sending his pals who lived nearer to collect her, he even told me which day and time. He knew she would be perfect for him as she looked like his old dog and all any rottweiler needed was affection 3 times a day and he'd bond with her by doing yoga with her. He lived in a 4th floor flat and had a shared garden, didn't drive and thought his friends would transport her half way across the country by train. I had to block him in the end as he got quite annoyed that he wasn't considered a suitable home, just on his say so.

A 72 year old woman with mobility issues thought she would be suitable despite her health and multiple cats.

Various others who might have been a match but decided it was too far to travel despite her location being in the post. They thought the rescue could arrange delivery. It's a rescue, not amazon ffs.

Some others who for various reasons, this dog wouldn't have worked for but told them about other rottweilers available, 2 x 11 month old boys, an older boy from a stray pound and a 3 year old girl, all with minimal issues. All they had to do to be considered for these dogs was fill in an application form (link in post on FB) but not one of them did. I suspect that they wanted the kudos of a fabulous looking dog that they turned round with the associated bragging rights.

Yes I am cynical. It seems that every meet and greet I do I have to tell people not to put their face in the dogs face or even not to kiss them! These are adult dogs that they met 5 seconds ago. Many are shocked that the dogs are not obedience trained to competition standard or in one case recently that the rescue would not cover vet bills (inc flea, worming and vaccs) in perpetuity for a young dog with no known conditions 'cos insurance is too expensive'. These people had ticked a box on the app form to say they had read the adoption T&Cs, had a home check, travelled 3 hours to the kennels (arriving 2 hours after their appointment time with no message to say that they were delayed) and multiple conversations were had about the dog before then. We also had one couple who wanted the rescue to take their dog (had allergies and they couldn't afford the vet bills/treatment apparently. He was practically bald with elephant skin when he arrived and so sore that treating him was difficult. The discussion about PTS was had about 2 weeks in because he was so threatening but once the skin eased he turned out to be a lovely dog, but because he had snapped, he was another dog that couldn't go to family home) but thought that they'd be able to pick another healthy one to take home with them when they delivered them... That dog was rehomed to an older couple with full disclosure of how he had behaved in kennels who were also told he liked his space, let him come to people, don't crowd him etc - all standard advice. The following day, the rescue received a photo of 2 pre teen grandchildren sitting on the floor with their arms around his neck with the comment of 'sweet'. Lets just ignore the whale eyes and pinned back ears shall we? That could have gone so badly wrong and I'll lay money that the rescue would have been blamed.

In saying that, there are many people applying who are sensible and prepared to work with what's in front of them which is great. If they are experienced and suitable for the more challenging dogs, unfortunately they usually already have at least one dog already so the dogs that need an only dog home aren't good for them. Other have great intentions but may not have the experience to deal with behavioural problems safely or not have the right environment for them. They go on a waiting list because they have filled in the application form and had a home check in advance. They rarely have to wait for long before a dog that would be suitable comes in. Those dogs never need to be advertised on social media or the website. They spend a month in kennels or foster for evaluation and are rehomed to the waiting list.

 

[Prancerpoos]

The dog should have been PTS once it’s job as a guard was over. I never understand this obsession of some rescue centres with keeping dogs alive at any cost when either by nature or nurture, or both, they are not suited to being a pet.

 

[SEL]

@cbmcts I get what you're saying about the stupidity of the general public - there's enough lockdown dogs around here for that to be blindingly obvious sadly - but this was a dog trained in protection who responded to commands in German. There is a time and a place for knowing the right answer is a final trip to a vet.

 

[skinnydipper]

If a dog like Chief were to be rehomed at all, it should be to an owner with specialist knowledge not Joe Bloggs willing to do his best.

The typical average dog owner will have little idea of the dog's potential to do great harm.

To me it would mean a lifetime commitment of management and training, striving to keep everyone safe. As a pet dog owner I can't see the fun in that.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

It is unbelievable that MT would be so stupid, they are so fussy in other ways. I do wish more people would be realistic about euthanasia and not just keep everything alive regardless.

 

[Clodagh]

Have MT at any point made a statement? Are they being sued? Is there anyway to find out?
My cyber skills are non existent.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Another thing to consider... I know of a lot of people sending the German breeds (GSD/Rott/Dobe/Box) to Germany for training and titling (you can't show in a lot of classes/win certain accolades in Europe without a working title, and the judge has to have XYZ affiliations, it's built into their system there, which I think is great).

It's a bit of an in house joke that these amazing trainers manage to achieve in weeks and months what the rest of us take years to do, and we look in the workbooks and see scores in the high 90s for dogs that weren't interested in food or a ball when they left.
There's also the issue of dogs arriving back and appearing as if they had never been out of a kennel/you give them a command in German or English and they look at you blankly.
These are not dogs that are going to eat you.

Also I have never, ever, ever heard of a mixed breed being sent to Germany for personal protection training. Or a pure bred for that matter. It makes no sense.

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

...

A f/t bodyguard will cost a lot more than a dog!

 

[splashgirl45]

It’s about time people were made to take some sort of test to find out how much they know and any gaps they could be educated on. There seem to now be more dogs with problems than ever before, it’s only been the last few years that I feel concerned that my dogs could be attacked if I see a dog I don’t know . I’ve had dogs for well over 50 years and can’t remember ever feeling like that before . Some dogs are lethal weapons as these 2 cases show but it’s the owners who are responsible for the deaths of that child and the mauling of the other…

 

[Birker2020]

Whether it could understand English or not I don't really feel that that has anything to do with it. The dog would have known by the shouting and aggressive tone of the voice that what he was doing was wrong.

I watch a lot of Animal Cops and every dog that is brought into the shelter is temperament tested, in some cases puppies as young as six months if they are known to come from a fighting ring or similar background or bad breed i.e. pit bulls as by acknowledging temperament can be inherited as much as it can be a by product of incorrect handling or training techniques.

If they fail the temperament test they don't get rehomed and are pts. Simple as that.

The test is given by people very experienced in dog temperament testing techniques and they've got the experience of doing hundreds of tests over the years they've been working there. So they are very good at interpreting the body language of the dogs, for instance last weeks episode two young pit bulls introduced to each other in the testing room environment, one on top of the other pinning it down the other dog yelping. One of the women went to intervene and the lady said not to as the dog was being a bit dominant but not nastily and the dogs soon showed evidence of just playing.

They use a hand on a stick to take a bowl of food away from them and they drop a heavy noisy object to see the dogs reaction, most are curious, some will slink away with their tale between their legs. They reckon their temperament testing is very reliable.

You'd think rescue dogs here would go through the same procedure before rehoming.

 

[Fjord]

When the guy in the video says 'guarding', is he essentially meaning 'aggression' or a show of aggression?

I really can't see that there are many homes suitable for that sort of dog, apart from as another poster said, a car scrapyard or similar.

Poor kid. ?

 

[skinnydipper]

The dog would have known by the shouting and aggressive tone of the voice that what he was doing was wrong.

or people shouting could have wound the dog up more.

 

[Clodagh]

or people shouting could have wound the dog up more.

Infinitely more likely. I had a Doberman x who enjoyed a fight if provoked. Shouting and screaming never made the situation calmer. Once the red mist has descended you may as well save your breath and try to keep calm.
Absolutely not saying anyone could have kept calm in this situation.

 

[CorvusCorax]

or people shouting could have wound the dog up more.

This is correct. A dog meant to do a guarding job should not be put off by shouting and as mentioned, it usually hypes a hyped up dog, more.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Whether it could understand English or not I don't really feel that that has anything to do with it. The dog would have known by the shouting and aggressive tone of the voice that what he was doing was wrong.

I watch a lot of Animal Cops and every dog that is brought into the shelter is temperament tested, in some cases puppies as young as six months if they are known to come from a fighting ring or similar background or bad breed i.e. pit bulls as by acknowledging temperament can be inherited as much as it can be a by product of incorrect handling or training techniques.

If they fail the temperament test they don't get rehomed and are pts. Simple as that.

The test is given by people very experienced in dog temperament testing techniques and they've got the experience of doing hundreds of tests over the years they've been working there. So they are very good at interpreting the body language of the dogs, for instance last weeks episode two young pit bulls introduced to each other in the testing room environment, one on top of the other pinning it down the other dog yelping. One of the women went to intervene and the lady said not to as the dog was being a bit dominant but not nastily and the dogs soon showed evidence of just playing.

They use a hand on a stick to take a bowl of food away from them and they drop a heavy noisy object to see the dogs reaction, most are curious, some will slink away with their tale between their legs. They reckon their temperament testing is very reliable.

You'd think rescue dogs here would go through the same procedure before rehoming.

Shouting and aggression can amp a dog up further and the application of this sort of pressure is used in many training scenarios. If, for example a police or army dog backed off from a verbal threat, it wouldn't be much good.

A lot of centres do test.
Testing in a centre is helpful, but will never tell you how a dog will react in a real world situation. When you test a lot of dogs and train for a lot of scenarios, you understand that doing it in a controlled environment does not compare to a busy street or a crowd situation, for example, where you can't control what other people or dogs are doing. A sand school at a rescue centre is not the park.

 

[splashgirl45]

but even though this dog was in the centre the handler explained it had guarding issues and would be suitable in a home where he has his own space so hardly the sort of dog that should be rehomed to an ordinary home where it would be walked amongst people and other dogs...as birker said, in america they PTS any dogs with guarding issues. i also watch the animal cops programs and i agree with a lot of their methods..

 

[CorvusCorax]

We temperament test dogs with a checklist before they even step onto our field, which is a very controlled environment in the middle of nowhere, to do very basic training.
'Guarding issues' is a very wide gamut taking in a lot of breeds.

 

[cbmcts]

@cbmcts I get what you're saying about the stupidity of the general public - there's enough lockdown dogs around here for that to be blindingly obvious sadly - but this was a dog trained in protection who responded to commands in German. There is a time and a place for knowing the right answer is a final trip to a vet.

I couldn't agree with you more and FWIW I've had the sad job of holding a dog for the vet to be PTS as it wasn't safe to be rehomed, just too unpredictable. Not an easy decision but a responsible one.

If a dog like Chief were to be rehomed at all, it should be to an owner with specialist knowledge not Joe Bloggs willing to do his best.

The typical average dog owner will have little idea of the dog's potential to do great harm.

To me it would mean a lifetime commitment of management and training, striving to keep everyone safe. As a pet dog owner I can't see the fun in that.

Again I agree. I've had a dog that would bite first and ask questions after and it was a huge responsibility and worry. I had the set up to manage him and after much training for both of us, he became much safer as he would listen to me but he was still unreliable with strangers. Would I do it again? Probably not. But lots of people talk a very good talk (and believe every word they say) but rescues and dogs only discover that they can't do the walk when something goes wrong - which is too late.

When the guy in the video says 'guarding', is he essentially meaning 'aggression' or a show of aggression?

I really can't see that there are many homes suitable for that sort of dog, apart from as another poster said, a car scrapyard or similar.

Poor kid. ?

A good guard dog needs to have a rock solid temperament. A nervous/lacking in confidence dog has the potential to be dangerous, no matter the breed or size. Long before you train a dog to hold or 'bite', you will have a 100% leave in place if you are doing it properly and it will always be a game. When people only train the flashy guardy bits but miss out the basic obedience training it gets dangerous. My best dog, who I would have loved to work in schutzhund/IPO or similar was the steadiest, best natured, as safe as any dog could ever be who would have loved the training but sadly, his legs weren't good enough. He was the only one of my 11 (to date) rotts that I would even have contemplated training to that level. All except one of the others were basically good natured dogs but not steady enough for that in my view. Even a yard or scrappies are not good enough for an aggressive problem dog as they can and have got loose and done damage to people. Also, it's not much of a life for the dog.

Shouting and aggression can amp a dog up further and the application of this sort of pressure is used in many training scenarios. If, for example a police or army dog backed off from a verbal threat, it wouldn't be much good.

A lot of centres do test.
Testing in a centre is helpful, but will never tell you how a dog will react in a real world situation. When you test a lot of dogs and train for a lot of scenarios, you understand that doing it in a controlled environment does not compare to a busy street or a crowd situation, for example, where you can't control what other people or dogs are doing. A sand school at a rescue centre is not the park.

And you can test away, flag up the scenarios that might worry a dog and cause it to react badly - I'm not talking about attacking someone, maybe snapping or getting defensive - but time and time again people think they know better, wilfully or through ignorance, laziness and apathy put their dog and other people in dangerous situations. Then they are surprised when it all goes wrong!

I have got it wrong so many times handling dogs but because I take basic precautions and am risk adverse, I've got away with it without anyone being bitten. To my shame, sometimes someone has got a fright but usually when they have ignored my request to back off. In those cases, I should have been much more forceful and protected the dog better. I routinely crate and muzzle train every dog that comes into my house. Many have never worn a muzzle again but as it's not a punishment, any that are iffy, like at the vets wear one when needed. That means I can handle them with confidence which makes for an easier visit for all concerned. I always offer to muzzle a dog at the vets and get thanked for it but know many owners are bitterly offended if a vet mentions muzzling. Why? Crates are a safe place for my dogs and keep them and visitors safe if required. My garden is like Fort Knox - I don't have to worry about the dogs being outside... The rescue asks that all dogs are walked in headcollars and 2 leads for insurance purposes as they are big strong dogs that you don't always know well and what they may react to. To be, the above are just the basic precautions that keep my stress levels under control. To others, they are the height of cruelty for some bizarre reason.

 

[Wishfilly]

I couldn't agree with you more and FWIW I've had the sad job of holding a dog for the vet to be PTS as it wasn't safe to be rehomed, just too unpredictable. Not an easy decision but a responsible one.



Again I agree. I've had a dog that would bite first and ask questions after and it was a huge responsibility and worry. I had the set up to manage him and after much training for both of us, he became much safer as he would listen to me but he was still unreliable with strangers. Would I do it again? Probably not. But lots of people talk a very good talk (and believe every word they say) but rescues and dogs only discover that they can't do the walk when something goes wrong - which is too late.



A good guard dog needs to have a rock solid temperament. A nervous/lacking in confidence dog has the potential to be dangerous, no matter the breed or size. Long before you train a dog to hold or 'bite', you will have a 100% leave in place if you are doing it properly and it will always be a game. When people only train the flashy guardy bits but miss out the basic obedience training it gets dangerous. My best dog, who I would have loved to work in schutzhund/IPO or similar was the steadiest, best natured, as safe as any dog could ever be who would have loved the training but sadly, his legs weren't good enough. He was the only one of my 11 (to date) rotts that I would even have contemplated training to that level. All except one of the others were basically good natured dogs but not steady enough for that in my view. Even a yard or scrappies are not good enough for an aggressive problem dog as they can and have got loose and done damage to people. Also, it's not much of a life for the dog.



And you can test away, flag up the scenarios that might worry a dog and cause it to react badly - I'm not talking about attacking someone, maybe snapping or getting defensive - but time and time again people think they know better, wilfully or through ignorance, laziness and apathy put their dog and other people in dangerous situations. Then they are surprised when it all goes wrong!

I have got it wrong so many times handling dogs but because I take basic precautions and am risk adverse, I've got away with it without anyone being bitten. To my shame, sometimes someone has got a fright but usually when they have ignored my request to back off. In those cases, I should have been much more forceful and protected the dog better. I routinely crate and muzzle train every dog that comes into my house. Many have never worn a muzzle again but as it's not a punishment, any that are iffy, like at the vets wear one when needed. That means I can handle them with confidence which makes for an easier visit for all concerned. I always offer to muzzle a dog at the vets and get thanked for it but know many owners are bitterly offended if a vet mentions muzzling. Why? Crates are a safe place for my dogs and keep them and visitors safe if required. My garden is like Fort Knox - I don't have to worry about the dogs being outside... The rescue asks that all dogs are walked in headcollars and 2 leads for insurance purposes as they are big strong dogs that you don't always know well and what they may react to. To be, the above are just the basic precautions that keep my stress levels under control. To others, they are the height of cruelty for some bizarre reason.

Thank you for sharing your insight on this thread- it's bizarre to me that people would want to rehome a clearly unsuitable dog for their set up for "kudos" or whatever it is.

I do think lockdown has unfortunately shown us how many people see dogs as accessories though, and not as an animal with a) its own needs and b) the potential to cause injury.