A total whip ban for equestrian sport? Thoughts?

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MagicMelon

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Further to the new racing whip rule. What are peoples thoughts on a whip ban to be brought into other equestrian sport (ie. eventing / SJ & dress)?

My thoughts are that the entire point of these disiplines is that the best trained horse should win? Surely using artificial methods removes that? A horse that must be whipped and spurred round a XC course for example (usually with a hefty bit in its mouth, a martingale and its mouth strapped shut) is surely not as well trained as one which does not require all this? The skill should be in producing a horse which goes well without any artificial means? Discuss.
 
For me - no way!

The whip is an essential peice of my safety equiptment out XC. If you have a horse backing off coming into a giant combination, a tap with the whip reminds them they have a job to to and get you both safely the other side.

I also deam it a peice of safety when hacking. You never know what a horse is going to do, and you can never win a physical battle with a horse so there is no point in trying, but if you are in a tricky situation it is a useful tool to aid persuasion that the safest route is the best one.

In addition, i think it should be noted: there is no ban on using the whip in racing. They are just tightening up the useage and penalties for disobeying the rules. They will still be there. They will still be used.
 
zxp said:
For me - no way!

The whip is an essential peice of my safety equiptment out XC. If you have a horse backing off coming into a giant combination, a tap with the whip reminds them they have a job to to and get you both safely the other side.

I also deam it a peice of safety when hacking. You never know what a horse is going to do, and you can never win a physical battle with a horse so there is no point in trying, but if you are in a tricky situation it is a useful tool to aid persuasion that the safest route is the best one.

In addition, i think it should be noted: there is no ban on using the whip in racing. They are just tightening up the useage and penalties for disobeying the rules. They will still be there. They will still be used.
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Well said :) My thoughts exactly!
 
i only carry a whip when jumping - and really only when competing - i try to not carry one when i'm schooling over jumps as i'd rather remember how to use my legs than rely on a tap on the shoulder (i know i'm prone to it so i dont carry a whip to train my legs lol!)

i rarely actually use it when jumping - only occasionally when she's backing off and legs along are not working - then its a tap on shoulder - sometimes behind leg if we're representing

never carryone for flatwork - again i'd a) rather get her listening to legs - and b) if you cant carry it for be dr then why be training with it?

i do agree though - excessive use of whip and spurs - and as you said combined with all the gadgets - makes me cringe - but then who am i to question? its my preference to use as little as poss for my own satisfaction - but - that's me and my horse - i'm sure there are some horses who need it.... probably ;)

ETA - i also did WH on her - again i always trained without a whip - as i'd not be using a show cane as a whip - so it was only for show
 
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Here's where I stand. And you should know I was a jockey back in the States. I grew up in an era in which if you were a girl and couldn't use a whip, you had zero chance of riding. But I don't think it's necessary to wallop them at all times. And yes horses do actually run from having a well timed smack, but not all. I have walloped myself with the whips we use here and suffice to say it doesn't hurt. But I digress.

I have a showjump mare that goes into the ring sans whip and spurs. She takes on anything even if she has a little look. She is only 5 and has done 12 shows. She's up to clear 1.10m. If she starts stopping then something is amiss. Hitting her will not make that better. She is also a baby so being confused is no reason for a smack either. At home she schools with zero noseband too. She does have a loose running martingale and goes in a Waterford dee bit. I feel in SJ that a horse constantly backing off or stopping isn't properly schooled or something is wrong. However, at the upper levels, which I have zero experience, I can see the need for a possible smack in combinations ect.

Eventing is another matter all together. I'm not seeing whipping and spurring as described by the OP. But i would imagine if I were coming into a scary combo and needed some extra umph then a smack could be a life saver literally. But again well schooled horses and horseman don't seem to be the problem and I don't think penalising them is in the best interest of horse or rider.

I start youngsters and in general will carry a whip. That doesn't mean I'm ready to beat the crap out of them for any infraction. It's there if needed and usually isn't.

Proper use of the whip should be taught to everyone. Tapping away and niggling one with a whip annoys me as much as stupid hard smacks for no reason. Timing and placement are crucial and very few people know how and when. When I see a horse stop at a fence and rider takes ages to get whip out for a whack, the moment is lost. And usually horse takes off 100 mph and rider is completely out if control. So my motto is don't get yourself into what you can't get out of.

Terri
 
zxp said:
For me - no way!

The whip is an essential peice of my safety equiptment out XC. If you have a horse backing off coming into a giant combination, a tap with the whip reminds them they have a job to to and get you both safely the other side.

I also deam it a peice of safety when hacking. You never know what a horse is going to do, and you can never win a physical battle with a horse so there is no point in trying, but if you are in a tricky situation it is a useful tool to aid persuasion that the safest route is the best one.
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Here here
 
I think that would be a terrible idea - and there are so many things wrong with your argument.

Aside from anything else - who is to say what qualifies as 'best trained' - who is to say what is 'better' - you can use a snaffle harshly, or a pelham lightly - you can use a whip and spurs lightly and only when appropriate - or you can give the horse thumping great kicks in the ribs. It is short sighted to have the view that using less gadgets means the riding is better in any way.

And then if you take away the use of the whip because it is an artificial aid, where do you stop? Take away the use of spurs too - and anything stronger than a snaffle, and martingales? Make everyone ride in a plain snaffle? How far do you take it - if the argument is that you shouldn't use anything that gives you any extra help?

If that was the case, many horses would be unable to compete at the higher levels because they simply wouldn't be safe to do so. No matter how skilled the rider - if you're not right coming in to a big fence, you have to have the instant control to hold or push on. I think we could safely assume that top level eventers or SJers do not choose strong bits, whips and spurs for the fun of it, but because they have made the best choice to keep themselves and the horses safe around the courses they need.

There's also a big difference between a horse that "needs to be whipped and spurred around a course" and one where the rider has those aids and uses them only when necessary. The first is definitely wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated - that's poor training. The second is a matter of safety.

And finally - you need to allow for horses and riders that are learning. A really experienced horse, or rider, may have the skill and ability to get themselves out of trouble with no extra help. But a young horse, or a less experienced rider - is more likely to need that extra help in order to get around the course safely.

The more they do, the more they will learn - but I know I would much rather have somebody give a horse an extra crack on the arse and get out of a sticky situation - than risk a bad fall for horse and rider.
 
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i realised that i totally neglected to say yay or nay to your question - and too late to edit now - doh!

but no - i'd not give total ban as i do think they are needed in certain situations/certain horses etc - even if its my preference not to use one - i do however agree with limited use.
 
Originally Posted by zxp
For me - no way!

The whip is an essential peice of my safety equiptment out XC. If you have a horse backing off coming into a giant combination, a tap with the whip reminds them they have a job to to and get you both safely the other side.

I also deam it a peice of safety when hacking. You never know what a horse is going to do, and you can never win a physical battle with a horse so there is no point in trying, but if you are in a tricky situation it is a useful tool to aid persuasion that the safest route is the best one.

Totally agree. I have an extremely spooky ex race horse, i rely on my whip as a back up to keep him straight whilst jumping, to back up my leg if he is having "selective hearing" whilst doing lateral work, or when he decides the crisp packet/cow/new fence is so scary that he wants to jump infront of a vehicle when hacking.
He is improving all the time so one day we may not need it but at the moment it is a vital tool in his re-schooling.
 
I carry a whip and I would use spurs. However if I belted her and booted her around the place. I would be off in a second and thrown into the nearest hedge, my mare wouldnt take it but I carry a whip to give har a pat to get her back to concentrating, I recently broke my pelvis because she wasnt concentrating going into a xc fence and woops she did a rotational and we were both very luck. I should have given her a smack but I hadent used the whip at all that day and felt she would go off my legs but I wish I did give her a pat cause it would have saved a lot of trouble.
I also would use spurs for dr and intense schooling as its easier for all of us, im not getting tired and flapping about by nagging with my leg and she isnt getting sick of being nagged.... This is because she is well trained, when on the bit she hangs back a little waiting for any and all direction so its better to use spurs to get the impulsion for a tricky move than to nag nag nag away
 
a "no way" for me also.

Whips are not meant to hurt, they are extensions of your hand and should be used as aids much like rein or leg aids.

Cowboys don't use whips but use rope instead as this extension.
 
A whip is an essential aid for any equine sport in my opinion. The new rules introduced in racing are a complete joke, especially for the national hunt jockeys.
My own view is that if whips are ever banned completely for racing then they should also be banned for every OTHER equine sport as well as every day riders. Their sale should be banned. How this would be policed I have no idea. This is how strongly I feel about this issue!
You can't have one rule for one equine sport and one for another when it relates to whip use! Some sports especially national hunt chasing and eventing are similar, in that the horse and rider are trying to get around the course accurately and in the quickest time, therefore a whip and other aids are often used to help keep lazy horses up to their work.
I don't like seeing any horses getting thrashed however one must remember that the racing whips of today are very soft and extremely flexible. What can often look harsh whip use by a jockey is over exaggerated especially if you consider what marks,welts would be left if someone used a conventional whip in the same manner.
The perception of whip use and its severity is often misjudged by many people who watch the sport.
A horse should be given time to respond to the whip that is for certain and jockeys who fail to acknowledge this should of course be disciplined.
However the BHA seems to have had a very large knock on the head and lately have become disorientated and very disillusioned on how racing should now be run. Their actions are causing a huge detriment to the sport.
So my thoughts are very clear on this matter if whips are banned in that sport then they should be outlawed across the globe for every rider whether professional or not. It is wrong to single out a particular sport for whip use especially when whip abuse goes on every day in every day life as well as in other equine sports, and in most cases more severely too!
 
No. The whip, like any tool, can be misused, but what it is FOR is to sensitise the horse to the rider's leg and seat aids; to be an extension of the trainer's arm for in-hand training and to touch parts of the horses that the trainer cannot reach; to correct and, yes, punish indiscretions. What it is not for is to whack, beat or terrorise - if the horse is frightened of a whip then it is no longer available as a tool.
 
MagicMelon said:
Further to the new racing whip rule. What are peoples thoughts on a whip ban to be brought into other equestrian sport (ie. eventing / SJ & dress)?

My thoughts are that the entire point of these disiplines is that the best trained horse should win? Surely using artificial methods removes that? A horse that must be whipped and spurred round a XC course for example (usually with a hefty bit in its mouth, a martingale and its mouth strapped shut) is surely not as well trained as one which does not require all this? The skill should be in producing a horse which goes well without any artificial means? Discuss.
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thats the most ridiculous thing iv'e read all day ,its people who think like that who are going to get equestranism removed from the olympic's :(
 
No, I don't think whips should be banned except for dressage and showjumping. I think that there are times when they may need to be used for safety reasons cross country or racing. But I hate the way they are often used show jumping. Absolutely disgraceful! If a horse needs whipping, then they are obviously either being over faced or not enjoying the job. I think that a schooling whip is acceptable but never to hit the horse with, only to tickle or to press against the horses side behind the leg when teaching lateral movements, or for wriggling or vibrating when needing more impulsion. But never, ever to whip or hit.
 
Wagtail said:
If a horse needs whipping, then they are obviously either being over faced or not enjoying the job.
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Absolute rubbish.

They can be used the same SJ as for XC. Sometimes the horse will not move quickly enough off the leg (through laziness, or distraction, or spookiness - for any reason) and will need a reminder coming in to a fence - the fences may not be fixed but coming into a decent sized jump with less than the right amount of energy or concentration can be dangerous.
 
Wagtail said:
No, I don't think whips should be banned except for dressage and showjumping. I think that there are times when they may need to be used for safety reasons cross country or racing. But I hate the way they are often used show jumping. Absolutely disgraceful! If a horse needs whipping, then they are obviously either being over faced or not enjoying the job. I think that a schooling whip is acceptable but never to hit the horse with, only to tickle or to press against the horses side behind the leg when teaching lateral movements, or for wriggling or vibrating when needing more impulsion. But never, ever to whip or hit.
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Why just dressage and showjumping? When was the last time you saw a dressage rider beating a horse round the ring? In affiliated dressage they would be thrown out and possibly receive a ban from BD to boot.

To the OP, banning whips is a really terrible idea, I have no problem with people being disciplined for overuse but to ban them is just plain ridiculous. From your post I would gather that you don't compete.
 
They should be re-named. A whip is not for whipping or beating, it's a tool. To encourage a safe jump, to make a horse alert, to remind it the rider is there, to emphasise a leg aid. Whips should never be used alone, IMO, which they all too often are. Especially in jumping, after a failed jump..
 
I wouldn't want to be out hacking without one, if I need to cross a busy road or get out of the way "quick" and I need him to move NOW, it's important for safety of us both to carry one, I use mine to tap his bum in if on a narrow bridge and say a bike or dog walker is going to pass us, I don't agree with people thrashing their animals with one, some over weight over sized spoilt brat thrashing it's poor struggling pony around a course or "punishing" an animal over and over because it made a mistake is a different thing.
 
Hi All

I think a whip had many benefits and I must say I carry one at all times on most horses, however, I can't remember the last time I used it. It is there in my opinion as a back up, if I'm schooling and I didn't get the response I wanted from my legs or if jumping and the horses decides to hesitate. I also used to work a lot of very naughty nappy horses which were sent to me to re-school, and sometime they did need a smack, but I believe there is a time and place for it.

What I don't like about whips are the people who used them unnecessarily or incessantly. Novice riders who are taught to get the horse to go with the whip rather than their legs and people who vent their anger with the whip!!

I do think whips and spurs are often over used and I think riders need to learn to use their aids more effectively, however, I don't see banning a whip a good idea. Training people on when to use it I think would be a much better option!

Thanks

Bea
 
No.

I never hack without one as you cannot let a horse mess around on the road. In no way would I use it to threaten dogsd or hit a car roof, obviously ;)

It is great if you have a horse that is always responsive, never lazy and immediately knows what you want when schooling. But if you have a stubborn, lazy cob that needs a few flicks of the whip rather than constant leg or sometimes just needs a schooling whip laid across his side when, for example, trying to do lateral movements when he's too clever not to try and fall out through the shoulder, then it can be very useful :D

I agree that there is no need to beat the crap out of a horse all the way around, but as Mark Todd showed at Badminton this year, sometimes a horse needs a swift, sharp reminder to concentrate and listen to the rider. It could have been quite sticky if he hadn't given a few smacks through the Quarry, but he did and the horse continued happily with no further need for it afaik. I can't think of anyone who has the ability to train horses better than him. It shows that horses are just that, animals who do no always react as we expect them to and for their safety and that of the rider, it would be very foolish to think that a useful tool should be taken away :)
 
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absolutely no way! i was always taught that a whip is an extension of your hand. used correctly in the right hands it is an exceptional training aid. Esp in terms of dressage! In the hands of the inexperienced, yes they can be dangerous, but to be honest, I cant really see where you're coming from am afraid!
 
A different point of view.

I have an incomplete spinal cord injury. My right leg in particular is incapable of subtle aids, so I use my schooling whip instead of the leg alot of the time (I mainly just press it against my mare, so no pain at all, she sometimes needs a flick).

I cannot use spurs because I wouldn't be able to control my use of them.

What would I do if whips were banned?

Side saddle riders use the whip to replace the leg aids too.
 
In my opinion, if used correctly are effective. Doesn't mean we should use them in competition, they are their to back up the leg, and when on youngsters/spooky horses or like someone said, going to a huge XC fence, a little tap and it can help, encourage them and remind them youre there. We also carry on when hacking stallions out, especially if were with another horse. Their trained that if they start nickering at the horse they're with, a slightest tap and they are reminded they are working and not in the serving area.

If the horse I ride doesn't tolerate whips and has a tendincy to not go off the leg, nap or if I need the extra aid their, I will ride in spurs, to help encourage, and only use them when i have too.
 
I use a whip and spurs and feel that at times they are very necessary.

If they were totally banned across the board however and everyone had to adjust to not using them I cant help but feel that it wouldn't be a bad thing after years and years of seeing the misuse of them at shows it would be lovely to never ever see that again and if that meant the total banning of them then I think I would probably advocate it.
 
A whip used properly should be an extension of the leg aide not a punishment !

A whip is also an essential piece of safty equipment as others have stated when going cc.

In addition to do well eventing you have to do well dressage which means your horse to do well has to be responsive and obedient to the aids not like the cc round described by op!

In summary a whip ban is a ludicrous suggestion however tightening up on misuse is a good suggestion
 
Not unless you want to make Eventing less and less safe....what a silly idea, you're far too general. You use the whip in emergencys when you need to, saying all riders "strap their horses mouths shut" etc is an insult to many.

The whip and spurs are tools, not enforcements and it would be dangerous to remove these.
 
fburton said:
Total ban? No way! More effective sanctions for misuse? Yes.
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I agree with this. I think in competition they could put a limit on use of whip and apply a penalty for overuse. Personally I feel half dressed if riding without a whip for all the reasons people have mentioned - in an emergency I want it there. Used correctly it is much less hard on a horse than repeatedly giving BIG KICKS.

It is an interesting discussion point if we are talking at a competition only (ie better trained horses in theory would need less use of whip) but as others have said I think for safety xc you need to be able to get impulsion quickly. However what if timefaults/whip faults were added for each use -would that level the playing field at a competition?
 
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