A wwyd.. backing a 3yr old

[twiggy2]

Horses, like many other species, start learning as soon as they hit the ground after birth, so it seems logical to me that they can start to be taught from that moment on, if only from other horses within a herd.

I don't like the traditional way of breaking a horse by starting on such-and-such a date with the training taking x number of weeks!

The title says backing though and for me that is not ground work and preparation that is just the process of getting a rider up on the horses back with a view to riding away.
All the other stuff is just part of life if they are in my hands, my mare had tents and kids and motorbikes and washing on lines, generators, tractors etc in and around her fields from the day she arrived.

 

[Wagtail]

All horses are different. My mare was very difficult age 3 and 4. She would rear and box on the lunge and so I just got on with having a sit on her and she behaved very well for this. I sat on her a few times when she was 4 and then left her until this summer. She has come into this summer being much more cooperative and absolutely no rearing or objections on the lunge. So even though she is now five, she is far easier than she was age 3 and 4. I never do much with her in one go. She is so keen to do new things. Last year she would plant being led over poles. This year she will follow me loose in a huge arena over poles and small jumps. Not even a head collar on her. Unfortunately my ill-health has meant I have not been able to progress much further with her this year and the way things are going she may be si before I am riding her properly. And this really doesn't matter a jot because she is not going anywhere.

After the experience one of my friends had recently sending her youngster to a seemingly lovely event rider to be produced, who had been recommended to me by another well respected ex client of mine, I would never send a youngster away to be backed or produced. This person took my friends money and returned a starved skeleton of a horse that had done nothing. It was heart-breaking and shocking.

 

[irishdraft]

I would do & have done number 2 back & lightly hack , if you have safe hacking , for a couple of months then turn away for the winter & restart as a 4 yo

 

[Goldenstar]

All horses are different. My mare was very difficult age 3 and 4. She would rear and box on the lunge and so I just got on with having a sit on her and she behaved very well for this. I sat on her a few times when she was 4 and then left her until this summer. She has come into this summer being much more cooperative and absolutely no rearing or objections on the lunge. So even though she is now five, she is far easier than she was age 3 and 4. I never do much with her in one go. She is so keen to do new things. Last year she would plant being led over poles. This year she will follow me loose in a huge arena over poles and small jumps. Not even a head collar on her. Unfortunately my ill-health has meant I have not been able to progress much further with her this year and the way things are going she may be si before I am riding her properly. And this really doesn't matter a jot because she is not going anywhere.
After the experience one of my friends had recently sending her youngster to a seemingly lovely event rider to be produced, who had been recommended to me by another well respected ex client of mine, I would never send a youngster away to be backed or produced. This person took my friends money and returned a starved skeleton of a horse that had done nothing. It was heart-breaking and shocking.

You never ever send your horse any where to anyone without checking what's going on .
You must must see the horse being worked every week and ask questions .
At the risk of sounding paranoid this is an area where you trust no one .
The only person I would ever send a horse for backing too is a person who specialises in backing and backing and riding away.

 

[ldlp111]

Blimey can't believe a post I started is now on 4 pages!!!
Well i'm thinking she'll be better to back over winter months as i'm not sure if she suffers abit of sweet itch. First summer I had her she rubbed alot of her mane out and her tail. Had vet who helpfully suggested could be anything, just try bathing her more etc. Anyway she is now on cider vinegar (which we actually make ourselves) and seems alot better still gets a few bumps on her back and has rubbed abit of her mane but seems alot happier.

Am holding off doing anymore bit work or long-reining as think she's still loosing some teeth at the moment.

Today we worked on getting her used to having feet on farrier type stand (as she's abit of a fidget with this) getting any length to this may take awhile.

Am looking into getting a bareback pad so can continue on with leaning over her etc.

I would like to start taking her on walks but it's bit awkward, older horse would be better on road (esp inhand) but he doesn't have shoes and would mean leaving mare at home on own don't think she'd be keen on this. So i'd either need 3 people to lead them all out, or someone to just lead youngster whilst I ride my mare or she starts out on her own. (she has been on a couple of walks when she was younger and didn't seem to bothered by cars)

Thanks for all the imput

 

[Rollin]

If my horses are sent away, I visit them every week, without fail. I have never had a problem with a producer returning a starved horse. My three year old is with a professional SJ who has qualified our Shagya filly for the National Championships in France and having great success with our Shagya stallion.

For us our relationship with the trainer is all about team work. He is 40mins away and we have horses going to and fro for training sessions every week. It works for us.

 

[Dry Rot]

Absolutely this.

I suppose we can get caught up in the moment that a horse is sat on and forget how much training you can do/happens before that moment. I agree with short sessions too with the exception of walking youngsters out in-hand. Mine have always loved doing that especially when I've had enough helpers to take the whole gang out together. Having calm older horses with you from their herd gives a youngster such confidence when they are meeting new things.

My helper arrived about 10am and by 12 we'd leant over one 2yo and backed another 3yo, both led around the round pen. All very laid back as they've both had an old coat on a long stick dragged over them until they'd ignore it. All they had to do was put up with the weight, and that was no bother either as I often lean over them in the field.

Now I am off to have a bath, then put my feet up in front of the tele, and try to recover from a hard day's hay making yesterday!

 

[ladyt25]

Having been through what I have with mine I would wait until the horse is at least 4 if not older to back. I messed up and have paid for it with mine, not just financially but mentally. He is now 7 and still we are making baby steps. I sent him away last year to be re-started as I knew I couldn't do it after what we'd been through
They did a fab job and I was progressing well. We've gone back a few steps recently due to him out growing a saddle/being paranoid about pain etc etc. I am trying another tact now as, if saddles are going to be the issue then I am trying total contact solutions. I'll let you know how I get on!
However, had I waited and not given in to pressure, impatience etc then I think I could have avoided all these problems if he'd just been strong enough mentally and physically to start. The people who rebacked him said some horses just are not ready until they're at least six. Another friend is riding and evening a lovely little 10 year old mare whose owner leaves her horses until they're 7 before she backs them.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The whole point of starting ridden training when a horse is three is precisely BECAUSE it is not yet mentally fully mature. Older horses tend to be less co-operative, more sure of their importance in the scheme of things and less inclined to comply with what the puny human wants. This is, again, based on my experience of breaking older horses to ride - can be much more difficult.

Yet I have helped with former broodies and they seemed to be thrilled to be doing something other than pop out babies. Some had not been backed when young, but some had and it didn't make much odds with those specific horses.

Going back to my own chappy, I am aware that he's a bit special :rolleyes3: but when he was getting overwhelmed it was obvious that it was too soon for him. He is definitely more co-operative now, I can even touch his ears these days!

I know this is slightly off the backing topic, but good handling in the early days is so vital to a foal's development. My boys issues have proved that to me without a doubt. Their brains seem to be like 'super sponges' early on and a bad experience gets so ingrained into their young brain that it's effects can still be felt years later.

 

[fornema]

I would back at 3, back at three to me is being able to walk, trot and possibly canter (depending on the horse) and then be turned away, backing to me is getting the horse used to having someone on its back and not about doing any 'work' per se. There is no way unless you are doing something vastly wrong that having a couple of walk/trot/canters (i.e. what they would probably be doing in the field) would damage your horse the future.

I know i certainly didn't want my now 17.2 4 yr old to be backed any later than 3 as she is a very powerful active mare and should she have thrown the fireworks that she is so fond of in the field i would not want that to be at full strength or her to be able to think so quickly about throwing them in. I agree with the Cortez who mentioned about the whole point of backing at 3 being the lack of maturity.

That said i have backed one at 5 who was extremely easy in all ways to back/school onwards but would have preferred to have turned away rather than continuing with her education as was required by the owner.

 

[windseywoo]

My first horse I backed myself, as a nearly six year old, but I had played with him a lot over those years. He'd done everything on foot (me) that he would do when ridden, Going for walks down the road, being groomed regularly, having rugs on in winter, popping over poles on the floor and having the tack on at regular intervals. This all helped when coming to the breaking period, he hadn't just been left in the field for six years. When it came to backing him I just popped the saddle and bridle on and with the help of a friend we were off. We'd done a lot of voice command work with him so as long as I spoke to him and told him what we were doing we were fine. However I was only in my early 20's at the time and I'd had him since a foal, so we'd got I good understanding of each other, I just bumbled along with no pressure and it worked out ok. With my second horse who was a lot bigger I started him off in the same way, but quickly thought that the sooner he was broken the better. He was sent to a local breaker two weeks before his third birthday and stayed there for seven weeks. I went to see him every week, more so if able, the trainer didn't mind when you came and once he was going out safely with his staff, he would encourage you to take your horse out in a group to make sure you (as the owner) were happy.
Over the summer I'd just take him out for short hacks about 3 times a week and then he had the winter off. I don't compete my horses so making them do hard work meant introducing some flatwork and doing longer routes, which at 4 he was quite able to do. Both ways worked for me with the different horses, so go with your gut, but if you choice 2 make sure you can visit whenever you want.

 

[tallyho!]

I would do & have done number 2 back & lightly hack , if you have safe hacking , for a couple of months then turn away for the winter & restart as a 4 yo

I did this... but I sent mine away to be backed over 8 weeks as I was away a lot. It was the winter of her 3rd year but she was a late foal. Rode her there near the end. Brought her home and hacked with her field mates around the village then turned her away at Xmas. Brought her back into work April the following year. Went to shows (in-hand) and hacked some more. Showed her some free-jumping (so much fun!). Then turned her away again for ages it seems... think I rode her again in April? Can't remember but we started lessons this year and she is good as gold.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Are you really going to ride a 3yo so hard that it's bones will be damaged?

No but it's back might be.

But then me and 3 friends have horses about the same age - 2 of the others are persistently off work due to lameness issues and one ended up with a stress fracture to the leg - all 3 started at 3. 2 also have issues with rearing and gee rally throwing their toys out of the pram. Mine was sat on late on in his fourth year, turned away and brought into work as a 5yo. I only started schooling him as a 6 year old and it was 6 months into the year before we cantered and he still hasn't jumped with a rider on board. He's still sound.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I backed on of mine at 5 but then not in work until 6 with no issues ( a native pony I've had since weaning) and one was backed by someone else at 3 and restarted by myself this year at 5 with no issues. I didn't know how he had been done but there seemed to be some holes in his education and as I'm not getting any younger, I wanted to take my time. I don't care if others back at three but wouldn't be in a hurry to back any of my own before 4 at the earliest so I'd not worry OP. Its none's business what you do or when with your horse is it?

 

[tallyho!]

No but it's back might be.

But then me and 3 friends have horses about the same age - 2 of the others are persistently off work due to lameness issues and one ended up with a stress fracture to the leg - all 3 started at 3. 2 also have issues with rearing and gee rally throwing their toys out of the pram. Mine was sat on late on in his fourth year, turned away and brought into work as a 5yo. I only started schooling him as a 6 year old and it was 6 months into the year before we cantered and he still hasn't jumped with a rider on board. He's still sound.

Maybe look at the way you are starting them... I recently attended a vet talk with a KS researcher that said that 90% of the 500+ horses did not have well developed tranversus abdominus and weak longissimus dorsi... basically they had no core strength whatsoever and were made to do movements they physically did not have the strength to carry out. Most of them were working at PSG level and broken down. I think I am guilty of starting my youngster in this way and I'm sure as hell making a lot of changes now!!

Look at Visconte Simon Cocozza. Very interesting work.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Maybe look at the way you are starting them... I recently attended a vet talk with a KS researcher that said that 90% of the 500+ horses did not have well developed tranversus abdominus and weak longissimus dorsi... basically they had no core strength whatsoever and were made to do movements they physically did not have the strength to carry out. Most of them were working at PSG level and broken down. I think I am guilty of starting my youngster in this way and I'm sure as hell making a lot of changes now!!

Look at Visconte Simon Cocozza. Very interesting work.

I don't have any issues with how I start mine - it's not mine with issues. As I posted earlier, I always make sure the topline is muscled up before adding a rider, regardless of age.

 

[DD]

I wouldn't back her until she's four, so I would carry on doing what you are doing. Better to leave them until 4/5 IMO. I think what you are doing will be giving her the best start in life. You will have a much longer lasting ridden life for her if you wait a bit.

^
this. am only just starting to ride my 6 year old. So glad I waited.

 

[tallyho!]

I don't have any issues with how I start mine - it's not mine with issues. As I posted earlier, I always make sure the topline is muscled up before adding a rider, regardless of age.

Oh sorry I thought you said yours and a friends. Beg your pardon.

 

[ycbm]

This thread is very frustrating! For everyone who has a horse broken at six still working at twenty five you'll find dozens which were broken at three doing the same at twenty five.

I have a friend with an ex brood mare broken at six. She has kissing spines and arthritis in the hocks and OCD in the fetlocks. But these one of anecdotes mean nothing.

There's no evidence that I know of which supports the claims people are making that breaking later will give the horse a longer working life or fewer problems during its working life.

Does anyone know of any?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I wonder how many people who always respond to these sorts of threads with "don't do anything until they're 4-5-6 etc." have actually had the range of experience to find out if there is a big difference? I've backed everything from a 2 year old (won't be doing that again) to a 13 year old, and everything in between. There is a reason why the traditional way was to break in at 3 (or actually, to start horses in traces at 2 1/2 and then sit on at 3); it's when MOST horses are big enough to start learning to carry a rider and when they are most receptive to being told what to do. Any decent horseman will know not to make 3 year olds work hard, just as a horseman will know to leave a big, weak, clumsy youngster til later.

In my experience (lots, as in 100's, of horses broken over many, as in 40+, years), the majority of horses should be broken at 3, educated at 4 and start real, grownup work from 5. Those who don't have to make a living at it, or don't have defined competition goals, or whatever, will of course do things as they wish.

Totally agree with you, tho i haven't attempted a 2 yr old (can I ask why?), the oldest was a brood mare at 15 as the owner wanted to pootle round her farm

 

[Wagtail]

I don't think there is any peer reviewed study. However, from personal experience I have found a much greater percentage of ex race horses have kissing spine than any other group of horses. There are also studies which show that horse's growth plates do not close until 5.5 - 6 years and that the spine is the last part to mature. I think that logic would say it is not good to load a spine that is not properly mature. Until only five years ago I was firmly in the back them at 3 years group. Now I have changed my thinking. But it is an opinion, no more no less.

 

[MrsMozart]

I still say a lot of it is horses for courses (s'cues the pun).

Titch (cob) last year at three was mentally fine and would have coped, but physically he was still a baby - the photos reveal it even more than it appeared at the time;
MrChilled (ID) appears big enough now at three, but mentally he's off with the faeries, so we'll wait 'till next Easter / start of summer.

As someone else said, a lot is in the prep and what people determine is backed / ridden away / in work. We do the ground work, we lean over, we put tack on, long rein, etc. etc. etc., all before we consider the horses to be backed and working.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think there is any peer reviewed study. However, from personal experience I have found a much greater percentage of ex race horses have kissing spine than any other group of horses. There are also studies which show that horse's growth plates do not close until 5.5 - 6 years and that the spine is the last part to mature. I think that logic would say it is not good to load a spine that is not properly mature. Until only five years ago I was firmly in the back them at 3 years group. Now I have changed my thinking. But it is an opinion, no more no less.

Ex racers are normally sat on at eighteen months old, it can't be compared with backing a three year old.

There is also the possibility that stressing a spine before the growth plates are sealed actually causes a stronger spine more capable of long term work with a ride on board.

We need research. Meanwhile, no-one is in a position to state as a fact that it is wrong to back three year olds, I don't think.

 

[YorksG]

Ex racers are normally sat on at eighteen months old, it can't be compared with backing a three year old.

There is also the possibility that stressing a spine before the growth plates are sealed actually causes a stronger spine more capable of long term work with a ride on board.

We need research. Meanwhile, no-one is in a position to state as a fact that it is wrong to back three year olds, I don't think.

And by the same token, no-one is in a position to state as a fact that it is right to back three year olds I think the key is to look at the animal in front of you and work with what you have, taking things at the pace which works for the animal, not to a pre-planned schedule.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

And by the same token, no-one is in a position to state as a fact that it is right to back three year olds I think the key is to look at the animal in front of you and work with what you have, taking things at the pace which works for the animal, not to a pre-planned schedule.

I had wondered if the issue with children carrying heavy school bags was an indicator that getting immature mammals to carry too much weight (and carrying it incorrectly) wasn't wise? I don't know if there was proper research done into it, but I do accept that it was obviously humans and not horses so not entirely comparable.

I do agree with YorkG that having no proper studies and evidence that 'backing later is better' is the other side of the 'we have no evidence that backing earlier is better' coin.

People need to do the best with their horses that they have and if they feel very strongly one way or the other, then they can buy something unbacked and follow their own schedule.

 

[Leo Walker]

My well grown cob was sat on and hacked out about 5 times in the autumn of his 3yr old year then turned away again. He came back into work in the spring/summer of his 4yr old year, got turned away all winter again, came back into work when he was 5yr old. It was circumstances more than anything else that made it so stop start. Mine is a very different horse at 6 than he was at 3, but I genuinely think it benefited him doing a bit at 3.5yr old and thats how I would do it again if I was going to

I dont know the answer, but when this sort of discussion starts I always wonder about the US where they routinely seem to start them at 2 and dont seem to have any long lasting problems. Or maybe they do and I just dont know about it?!

 

[Irish gal]

Personally I don't see a need for studies, the evidence is already there and it's in the experience of really great horse people - who have maybe broken thousands of horses down through the years.

I'm lucky to deal with some excellent horse people through my work as an agent and I find their knowledge just inspiring and fascinating. I have to agree with Cortez, there is a reason horses are backed at three. As she said it's precisely because of their immaturity and greater willingness to take direction at that age. Then they are left off, to mature and most importantly to ponder their recent experience and lessons, and to take on board their role in the scheme of things.

Of course there are plenty of horses broken later who turn out fine, the grand docile broodmare who takes to being ridden like a pro at ten. That's because she had a biddable temperament to start with but what about the big strong bolshie horse that was left til six and then turns out to be a nightmare and never really accepts it, bucking people off and basically was ruined.

It's just like with people - there's a window for learning with small kids, and it's the same with horses, if crucial lessons aren't learned when they should be then they may never be.

A friend who produces a lot of horses has a magnificent stallion. He had him under saddle at two and a half, and when I asked him why so early he said it was in the horse's best interests. Being a stallion it's important that he always works well with people, he explained, and that any little shows of attitude are dealt with properly along the way. He specifically broke the horse so he could mould him in just the right way. Now he's not worked, he goes on the odd hack with a really light rider. Huge care has been put into every decision to do with the horse, as he's earmarked as a future top international jumper. But this early education has been done to help the horse and it would never have been undertaken if there was any chance it would damage him. Besides the ethics of it - the horse is worth a fortune.

And this is why I say that people should take the advice of expert horsemen. As this man often says to me "when you're making your living from horses there is no room for error - you can't afford to make mistakes". So if backing horses at three was bad, or led to health issues then these guys wouldn't do it - because it wouldn't be in their best interests. If what they do didn't work then they wouldn't top the select sales of sport horses and they wouldn't have top show jumpers and eventers beating a path to their doors to buy horses.

Some might say physical problems only show later on, well these sellers keep an eye on their horses and have noticed nothing strange as they track their future progress. And if they did go on to have problems people wouldn't keep coming back to buy from them.

As for the poster here, it's up to you to judge. But the biggest thing I would say to you is, don't go backing the horse unless you're very confident in your ability to do so properly. How a horse is backed will stay with it for life and maybe your feeling very confident in your ability. If that's not the case though, send it away to someone who is very good at what they do. The horse will thank you every day you ride it and you will have a good horse for life.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...4&query=quality+irish+horses&price__unit=4831

 

[YasandCrystal]

I am another who would wait. I did lots of inhand work with my Dales from age 4 years but I only backed and started him at 5. I want him to last into his 20 s and don't agree with stressing immature joints. He is such a super horse I am so pleased I took Our training slowly. He is so good and tries so hard.

 

[UnaB]

I haven't read through all the posts (there are a lot!!!) So sorry if I am repeating anything.

I have just broken my mare in and have done it all myself. The reason for that was because I will know what's been done with her, the accomplishment of doing it myself and I think it helps build a bond of trust with the horse. I am not a professional by any means but I am a confident, experienced rider and taken on board as much advice and opinions as I can. I have now broken in two horses, Ava who I am currently working with and previously her mother Una. It's early days WITH Ava, she has been sat on maybe a dozen times and had her third road hack today (on our own as we have no helpers unfortunately) but she is doing so well. Had no issues at all. I did things with both horses in our own time. I always worried with professional training if they might push the horse to meet certain goals. I'm sure the good ones wouldn't but at least I know everything we are doing is what we're comfortable with. We did our first trot yesterday. Slow progress by anyone's standards but it suits us as I am having to fit it in around work and everything else so she is mostly being ridden at weekends.

With both of my horses I waited until 4 to break in properly but they had tack on at 3 and I leaned over them. Mum was a friesian and Ava of course 1/2 friesian so slow maturing breeds.

Best of luck and if you want to chat at all feel free to message me. Like I said, we are not professional by any means lol!! But happy to help if I can.

Here is baby Ava yesterday enjoying the scenery on her second ever hack. She is taking to it all so well 😊

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Personally I don't see a need for studies, the evidence is already there and it's in the experience of really great horse people - who have maybe broken thousands of horses down through the years.

I had a very interesting conversation with an elderly horseman a while ago. He stated that the brilliant horseman that he had learnt from was in turn taught by another great horseman that had learnt his trade before motor cars were invented. Although that horseman did break many horses for others at a younger age, he apparently always broke his own personal horses at five. I thought that it was fascinating. These were horses that were working for a living, doing far more work than the vast majority of modern horses. You'd think that having unbacked horses in the field not earning their keep was an anathema in those days, yet that's what he did with the firm belief that it would extend their working life.

Anyhoo, the point is that not everyone who is a brilliant horseman/woman, or has broken thousands of horses, or everyone who is a more traditional horseman will agree on this subject.