About crossbreeding and defining a backyard breeder.

[FinnishLapphund]

Miss Candy posted a question on another thread and I didn't want to hijack that thread, so I'm posting my answer in this new thread.

I'd be interested to hear views on these currently fashionable cross breeds where both parents are KC registered but obviously the pup won't be.
Would it only matter if the pup would then be used for breeding?
What defines a back yard breeder?

My view on fashionable crossbreeds is that I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Because my experience of such breeders is that they live in la la la la land, where all crossbreeds are innate healthy and therefore the stud dog and broodbitch requires no health tests (I apologise to anyone not like that).

But genes doesn't care about innate healthiness, if they're duplicated - they're duplicated, no matter if you cross a Spanish Water Dog with a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, or a Cocker Spaniel with a Dwarf Poodle, all those four breeds can carry the eye disease gene prcd-PRA, and if it is duplicated - it is duplicated.


Another example, let's say that we cross a Beagle with a Shetland Sheepdog, some of the puppies inherit the eye disease gene for POA Glaucoma from the Beagle, one of those puppies becomes a broodbitch that is mated back to another Beagle, if that leads to a duplication of the gene for POA Glaucoma, then this new fashionable, "innate healthy" Beagle/Shetland Sheepdog crossbreed can have the same inherited eye disease POA Glaucoma, as a purebred Beagle.


Optigen offers some different DNA-tests for dogs, for example :
If you have a Golden Retriever it can be tested for 3 diseases (prcd-PRA, GR_PRA1 & Ichthyosis).
If you have a Labrador Retriever it can be tested for 3 diseases (prcd-PRA, RD/OSD & NARC).
If you have a Labrador/Golden Retriever cross it can be tested for 4 diseases (prcd-PRA, GR_PRA1, Ichthyosis & RD/OSD).
If you have a Goldendoodle it can be tested for 4 diseases (IC, prcd-PRA, GR_PRA1 & Ichthyosis).
If you have a Labradoodle it can be tested for 4 diseases (IC, PFK, prcd-PRA & RD/OSD).
If you have an Australian Labradoodle it can be tested for 5 diseases (IC, Ichthyosis, PFK, prcd-PRA & RD/OSD).
If you have a Labradoodle/Goldendoodle cross it can be tested for 6 diseases (IC, Ichthyosis, PFK, NARC, prcd-PRA & RD/OSD).
( http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test.html )


So without even going in to more complicated recessively inherited diseases like Hip Dysplasia, I will say that I believe, that it truly does matter for all puppy buyers that the stud dog and broodbitch are KC registered and health tested according to the requirements for the breed(/breeds), regardless whether you are buying the puppy as a potential stud dog/broodbitch or as a family pet. Because in neither case do you want to take a bigger risk than necessary, to have a puppy that develops an inherited disease, and as proven above, to simply buy a crossbreed offers no guarantee for avoiding inherited diseases.




Things that I associate with backyard breeders :
Doesn't believe that registration and/or health tests is necessary, especially if the puppy is sold as a pet dog.

Not that knowledgeable about their breed/breeds, health testing or the rest of the dog world (including anything from dog training, agility, working dog competitions etc.), and doesn't believe that such things is relevant if you only want a pet dog.

Can't offer any help or advice about which puppy you should choose, they can't evaluate the puppies temperament and thereby not tell you which puppy/puppies that is most suitable for you. Without leaves it all up to you, so you can pick the puppy that you think is cutest, the one that you feel have picked you out, the one that you feel sorry for etc.

As long as they get your money, they don't really care about who you are or if you're a suitable owner for this type of dog.

Believes that their responsibility ends when you've walked out through their front door with your new puppy. They doesn't offer any support and would never ever consider taking back a puppy once it is sold.

Makes easy, convenient, cheap decisions when deciding upon stud dog.

If the puppies are purebred, they don't know the inbreeding percentage of the mating. For example if I want to breed one of my bitches, then I would know that if I choose stud dog A, the litter gets an inbreeding percentage of 1,4 %, but if I choose stud dog B, the litter gets an inbreeding percentage of 0,4 %, a lower percentage is good from a genetic point, but then maybe stud dog A have better health test scores, better temperament... If I was the breeder, I would be able to explain my stud dog choice to you.

Breeds from broodbitches with unsuitable/undesirable temperament.

Doesn't truly care if the stud dog or broodbitch is healthy, all that matters is if they can reproduce themselves and that it results in as many puppies as possible.

Uses a broodbitch that is not up to date on vaccinations or deworming, sells puppies without their first vaccination, that isn't dewormed, that haven't passed the simple puppy health test check that veterinarians can do.

Either sells the puppies without contracts or with some homemade contract that might not even be worth the paper it is written on.

Sells puppies without guarantees and the puppies are not insured (for example a typical good Swedish breeder will have the puppies fully insured up to 12 weeks of age and after that they are insured regarding hidden faults up to 3 years of age).

Allows you to take home your new puppy before 8 weeks of age, regardless of that it is important for puppies to get those weeks of training their socialisation skills together with their siblings.

Doesn't provide the puppies with a stimulating environment, giving them things to investigate, giving them a chance to get used to normal household sounds and haven't handled them on a regular basis.

Tells you what you want to hear, so hypothetically if you say that you want a couch potato, that you can take out on short strolls around the block and that doesn't need much activation, the breeder will tell you that it makes you a perfect owner of a Border Collie!




But sadly some backyard breeders knows these things, and does their very best to portray themselves as good breeders, so use the internet to try and find out how many litters they sell per year, and check if the stud dog and broodbitch have any official health test results (for example the Kennel Club have this http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx ).

Also for example :
Ask to see where the puppies are kept, when the breeder can't supervise them.
If you can't go near the broodbitch even if you meet her away from the puppies, don't expect the puppies to have a better temperament.
Ask for advice about which puppy to choose.
Ask how and why they choose the stud dog that they used.
Get suspicious if the breeder doesn't have any questions for you or about you.
Don't buy a puppy that haven't had its first vaccination, isn't dewormed or veterinarian checked.
Don't buy a puppy without a proper contract.




And at last, a difference between for example Great Britain and Sweden, on websites that talks about how to recognise a backyard breeder, then in Great Britain it is often said that only backyard breeders advertises in local newspapers, but in Sweden both good breeders and backyard breeders advertises in local newspapers and I like that, because that way they're not leaving any "field" open for only the backyard breeders and good breeders can easily be found even for a novice first time dog buyer.


This was the things I could come and think of, I hope it answers your questions and that other HHO:ers can fill in the things that I've missed.

Apple or Popcorn to those who read this to the end.

 

[eatmyshorts]

On the whole, i agree with that, especially re the cross breeds which are so fashionable just now.

I don't however think that every ... how shall i phrase it..... small time breeder (?) is bad & would like to think in some cases they can be every bit as good as someone who breeds dogs for a living, in some ways better as there shouldn't be (if breeding for the right reasons) such financial pressure. My parents had a lab bitch years ago whom they bred (to good stud dogs) a couple of times - i think she had her litters at 3 & 6 years. All pups were KC registered, we knew all their characters by the time they were 8wks, & by the 2nd litter we had pups ordered before they were born.

I hope to breed one of my GSP bitches in a few years time, just the once, because they have such nice breeding, & because they are so special & there are so few of them up here. She'll be vet checked & hip scored & the pups will be KC reg. The bitch i have chosen to breed (after much consideration) is the one who i think has the better temperament for it - she is very calm, confident & laidback. I will know my puppies temperaments well by the time they are ready to go to approved homes, & i will always be there for them to fall back on. I hope i will be able to be one of the responsible "backyard breeders". (that sounds so horrible tho!!)

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Oh heavens, I certainly didn't mean to sound as if a hobby breeder can not be a good/responsible breeder! Of course they can, if you breed responsible, if you've tried to learn as much as possible before breeding, if you health test, if you have questions for a potential puppy buyer, if you vaccinate, deworm and let a veterinarian check the puppies before they're going to their new homes etc. etc., then of course a hobby breeder can be a good/responsible breeder.

Nobody knows everything, no one is perfect, but there is a big difference between those who have tried to educate themselves as much as possible before breeding and those who simply seem to think things like "But she would be such a good mother", "She's so cute (even though she tries to bite off the neighbours arm)" and "Selling x number of puppies = I could make money out of this".


Some of the best Swedish breeders that I know of have been/are hobby breeders, they're definitely good/responsible hobby breeders, I would never, ever call them responsible backyard breeders, because you're right, the later sounds like a horrible contradiction.


Very glad that you agree, on the whole.

 

[eatmyshorts]

Hobby breeders, yes, that's much better!

 

[PucciNPoni]

Great post!

 

[MurphysMinder]

A great post, and I actually didn't read anything in there inferring hobby breeders were the same as back yard breeds. One other question I would always suggest people ask the breeder is why they are breeding the litter. If they aren't breeding to keep for themselves then they should perhaps have had several people waiting for pups for a while. If they have no good reason for breeding, and more to the point have several pups unsold at say 6 weeks then I would suggest they are just in it to try and make money.

 

[EAST KENT]

There is another element to consider as to WHY breeders continue to push out crossbreds.The kennel club will only register four litters off any one bitch,it used to be six.However ,bung in alternately a cross bred "designer" litter they can squeeze out eight litters from a bitch.There are NO KC checks on unregistered litters,even amongst the Assured Breeders..it is an open doorway to abuse.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Brilliant post Finny and sadly there are one or two people on this forum who fit into that bracket

 

[misterjinglejay]

Fantastic post - absolutely agree, FL - you should post it on all the dog forums!

 

[{97702}]

Excellent post FL I think this should be 'stickied' at the top of the AAD forum for everyone to read and learn from

 

[Skippys Mum]

There is another element to consider as to WHY breeders continue to push out crossbreds.The kennel club will only register four litters off any one bitch,it used to be six.However ,bung in alternately a cross bred "designer" litter they can squeeze out eight litters from a bitch.There are NO KC checks on unregistered litters,even amongst the Assured Breeders..it is an open doorway to abuse.

You beat me to it! My pet hate is seeing bitches being bred every season - once a year to get a registered litter then again for a crossbreed litter. Joe Public seem to have no idea this goes on.

 

[Star_Chaser]

I agree with the majority of the post except one thing:

There is absolutely NO REASON whatsoever for ANY dog not to be registered with the KC. None at all.

If the parents are KC registered then they can be registered on the KC's 'Activity Register' with their pedigrees intact and traceable for anyone who chooses to do some research with a simple phone call to the KC registrations dept or library. They are published in the BRS and it opens the door to competition that most dogs would benefit from even if its just agility which any good breeder would want to encourage.

If a litter is from unregistered parents they can STILL be registered on the KC's activity register highlighting the sire and dams breed if known.

I find it beyond belief that there is an excuse for not registering a litter, it costs next to nothing in comparison to the amount that a breeder will ask for a puppy

BYB in my honest opinion is not a hobby breeder.

A hobby breeder is someone who knows their breed, participates but breeds rarely usually when they wish to replace their own. They may compete but not necessarily on a large scale and more for fun than trophies to aid the sale of puppies. -Personally these are the breeders that I aim for if I am looking for a puppy.

A professional breeder is someone who actively uses their hobby as a living to produce more than the average number of litters that would require registration as a breeder with their local council - usually large scale trophy hunters predominantly in showing in most breeds or field in some of the Gundog breeds such as spaniels/labs. They are often well known in their breeds, judge or serve on committees for the breed clubs. You will often find BYB/Pet owners quoting these affixes as a bonus to the sale of their litter... blah blah has ** lines. They are often seen as experts in their breed and hold some influence. You will often hear at shows that it is not the dog but the person on the end of the lead that wins on the day - whether that is true or not.

A BYB is a pet breeder who buys as a pet their dog, does not participate in the breed and thinks their bitch or dog should have a litter because it would be 'nice' and they are lovely, which is codswallop they offer very little usually and rarely have done their research into their pedigrees thinking that a couple of red names makes them special they offer little support to the purchaser. They rarely have a grasp of the breed standard and will often reproduce against the standard particularly with colour where they see 'rare' as a benefit rather than as a negative to the breed as a whole. In the past these would have been bred in the shed or as the name suggests Back Yard.

A puppy farmer is someone who has no care over their dogs beyond that of stock producing stock for sale, usually medium to large scale, no concern over the health of the stock they produce or breed from and they give little when it comes to the sale, so no microchip, no dock, no dewclaws removed, no vaccinations, will often sell to pet shops, will sell more than one puppy at a time to the same home, offer no return or future support, usually sell to the more gullible pet market, will over breed their stock and then either dispose of or dump usually with organisations such as for an example 'Many Tears' when they are of no further value. They will often produce designer cross breeds, 'rare' colours or attributes for vastly exaggerated sums.

There are always exceptions to the rule but they are few and far between.

 

[Star_Chaser]

There is another element to consider as to WHY breeders continue to push out crossbreds.The kennel club will only register four litters off any one bitch,it used to be six.However ,bung in alternately a cross bred "designer" litter they can squeeze out eight litters from a bitch.There are NO KC checks on unregistered litters,even amongst the Assured Breeders..it is an open doorway to abuse.

Not if you report them Simply keep a copy of any adverts and email correspondance and send in to the KC Accredit Breeder Scheme or the Registrations Department.

 

[EAST KENT]

Not if you report them Simply keep a copy of any adverts and email correspondance and send in to the KC Accredit Breeder Scheme or the Registrations Department.

Good Lord,they could`nt be bothered with that,it is as much as they manage to get health test results onto a dog`s data.I do admire your faith though!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree, this thread should be stickied as a warning to puppy buyers.

One of the most successful kennels in the UK in recent times, in my own breed, are hobby breeders.
Thoroughly nice people, half of the couple works full time, the other is in ill health. They research bloodlines to the nth degree, breed intelligently, work their dogs, do all the health tests, campaign them in Germany and at home and their dogs live in the house with them and have a great life. They put SO much into their dogs.

But they have to charge the same for their pups as the puppy farmer down the road, who reverses one non-descript dog into another twice a year.

 

[MissCandy]

Sorry I haven't been back, just come across this thread again (I saw it briefly but didn't have time to respond) and wanted to say thank you for taking the time for a very detailed reply

The breeders I have in mind would meet some, but not all of your criteria for a hobby breeder as opposed to BYB. It would seem it is very difficult for a novice buyer to tell the difference.

For the ones I know, the driving force would seem to be money and when some crossbreeds fetch more than the purebred I guess it's easy to get carried away.

It's certainly made me re-think where my puppy will come from.

 

[Echo24]

Totally agree. Makes me cringe when I see adverts from people looking for a stud or brood bitch and says "don't care about papers or registration as I will only be breeding as a hobby" *face palm*

 

[Goldenstar]

There's a lot of labradoddles round here , I never considered that they where a way of breeders getting more litters out of KC registered bitches , in fact a friend has one and when she told me where it was from I could not understand why the bitch was not having lab pups now I think I see why that and the fact she paid over £1000 for the pup , it is a lovely pet though.

 

[Spook]

Yes, a good post OP.

Ah! the guilable punters, "you pays your money and you takes your chance" ...... and horses are shortly to go the same way, if they have not already....... what a cock up

 

[Kaylum]

If I paid £1000 for a dog I would want it vetted before I bought it. I wouldn't hand over £1000 for a cross breed or KC registered I hadn't had vetted. Also the KC registered dogs are insured for 4 weeks, activated by the breeder. This came in very handy for my neighbour when her pup died of parvo.

 

[EAST KENT]

I think every buyer is entitled to a healthy puppy,who has had it`s first vax,is vet checked,is ID`ed is insured,comes with loads od dietry advice and a food pack.I must say I bought a very expensive Border Terrier from a very historic dual purpose line,he was "home vaccinated" not insured,not vet checked ,nothing.As it turned out he was fine,but it made me very nervous at the time.
I would not want to do that to a customer of mine.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If I paid £1000 for a dog I would want it vetted before I bought it. I wouldn't hand over £1000 for a cross breed or KC registered I hadn't had vetted. Also the KC registered dogs are insured for 4 weeks, activated by the breeder. This came in very handy for my neighbour when her pup died of parvo.

If I paid £1000 for a dog, I'd want it to **** gold!!!

 

[Star_Chaser]

In some respects labradoodle's are a new breed because they were bred for a purpose as a potential resolution of a problem for people needing a guidedog that have allergies. All the breeds started for a specific purpose so it does follow the natural progression in the creation of the breed.

One thing that I do find a little bit distressing in some respects and its been a topic of debate round the table for me recently is breed diversity.

Its sad to think that puppy farmers who don't have access to the typical breeder stud dogs, the ones that are very highly used and saturate a breed through popularity, might be the key to diversity and recovering lost lines. Their only option is to use dogs that would not other wise be used not because there is anything wrong with them but because they don't hold a title or are not owned by well known affixed breeders.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Even the creator of the labradoodle has hit out at the way they are being produced.

 

[Star_Chaser]

Even the creator of the labradoodle has hit out at the way they are being produced.

I can see why. I prefer the carefully being bred for a purpose not for a cash crop

 

[Dobiegirl]

.

Its sad to think that puppy farmers who don't have access to the typical breeder stud dogs, the ones that are very highly used and saturate a breed through popularity, might be the key to diversity and recovering lost lines. Their only option is to use dogs that would not other wise be used not because there is anything wrong with them but because they don't hold a title or are not owned by well known affixed breeders.

I cant believe you wrote that, do you really believe that puppy farmers consider for one minute the stud dog, as long as its got a pair of balls and is up to the job and can make them money that is their only consideration.

 

[Spook]

And I know for sure of a couple of "respectable?????????" breeders who are using stud dogs with one nut up and one down...... so Dobiegirl, even worse than any dog "as long as it's got a pair of balls".

 

[CorvusCorax]

A respectable breeder would use a stud dog that has proved it's worth in the working field and/or the showring. A monorchid or cryptorchid would not receive a good show grading.

A dog used in the working field, would easily be identifiable by anyone with a pair of eyes, to only have one ball.

Anyone using a dog at stud, would only have to lift the dog's tail and find out before they pay a stud fee.

Cryptorchidism and monorchidism are genetic and the word would soon get out that the dog is producing one-ball wonders.

And apart from anything, it is much harder to get a successful mating out of a dog with one ball.

So who says these breeders are 'respectable'?!

 

[Star_Chaser]

I cant believe you wrote that, do you really believe that puppy farmers consider for one minute the stud dog, as long as its got a pair of balls and is up to the job and can make them money that is their only consideration.

Your totally missing my point.

When you look at breed diversity you have to look at the damage that large scale breeders have done already, their interest for the vast majority is to maintain their hobbies so in some breeds restrictions on the times a stud dog can be used is not limited to protect breed diversity. Say for an example one dog is imported from the US as 'new blood' it gains its title not necessarily through merit (another debate) but a lot of breeders use that dog which brings with it health and temperament issues. The pups from those litters are brought and shown, they in turn become stud dogs and the lines are crossed doubling up on that import line, next generation another lot are bred and again very closely mated but this is happening across the population. The health issues are now starting to occur. The only people in the population that haven't been able to use this particular line at stud are the puppy farmers who none of the breeders would allow to use their stud dogs.

Lines are lost, health issues are multiplying and breeders are having to look for lines to go back to to avoid these issues. So where do they go?? All the affixed lines have this dog in them through several generations now, some lines have died out along with their owners, some are no longer being bred and not available what does it leave you????

Puppy farmers tend to keep their own stock they churn out but the lines are pretty insular they've not been able to use the problem dog.

My POINT is that because we have not restricted and been careful about new introduced lines we've caused ourselves a problem and to have the only option of going to puppy farm lines is a shocking. I am not advocating it I am simply pointing out that we are creating a problem for ourselves through popularity of lines. Every breed has them... affixes that are well know, have done well in each breed. KC may restrict on bitch litters but there is nothing to help restrict the damage popular studs do.

I can't remember which breeds they did the diversity evaluation on but it was an eye opener and something a lot of the breeds are now having to consider carefully.

 

[Spook]

They seem to sell their puppies no problem and the punters are so guillable, they believe what they are told..... once someone is regarded or established as a "breeder" what they say is gospel to many buyers ears.

Not all reg. dogs are shown or worked, they have no examination for suitability as breeding stock and the general puppy buying public are looking for a pet...... they do not know to look for many of the congenital problems and would probably not recognise recognise them if they did...... We have bred very few litters of puppies, only about 5 in 40yrs, but always have taken the greatest care with the bitches we have bought and also the stud dogs we used.