Abscess - barefoot or shod?

Mrs Jingle

Mrs Jingle

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I really hope my question might result in some useful debate but not mayhem!

My horse had her shoes removed back in the autumn, within 6 weeks she had an abscess erupt at the coronet area on the back of her off front. She was hardly lame, and it cleared up very quickly. For various reasons she was not ridden for several months and just turned out with trims when needed, but walked out in hand about 3 times a week. But her diet has been optimum for barefoot for well over a year.

With hoof boots on she was brought back into work about 3 weeks ago, because I am very restricted on the conditions she lives in (think very wet boggy fields almost year round with little or no dry standing) she remained very sensitive on uneven hard ground. Although she had only gentle and short walks she just wasn't coping. Last week she started to brew an abscess on her back near side. This has also erupted at the coronet area on her heel. This horse has never abscessed in the 2 years I have owned her before pulling her shoes.

I have decided to have her re shod when she is completely recovered from this latest abscess. My question isn't about this decision, it is mine and it is what I feel suits my particular horse and my circumstances best.

However, what I am curious about, after doing a lot of googling, (as you do) it would seem that a lot of owners do expect that many horses transitioning to barefoot will almost certainly experience some degree of abscessing. I am also intrigued by the theory that this is because the shod hoof has been disguising some sort of underlying and rumbling infection for several years (yes years!!!) that has never made them lame, but on removal of shoes all this shocking interior hoof damage has more or less 'exploded' via an abscess as the hoof 'comes back to life'.

It has occurred to me that my own experience of abscesses over the years has only ever been in unshod horses. I have never personally experienced an abscess in a shod hoof, though I am sure it does happen.

I have a niggling feeling that somewhere we are missing some knowledge about the tendency for the abscessing to be more 'acceptable' in a barefoot horse. It doesn't sit easy with me that a horse in pain and regularly abscessing is a particularly good thing even if our intentions in trying barefoot are for the horse's long term benefit (in our eyes that is). Reading seems to tell me that it isnt something that just occurs whilst 'transitioning' with a lot of barefoot'ers it does seem to be an ongoing problem.

This is really not intended as a criticism of barefoot, I am only sorry that it didn't work for my horse, but it is something that I have been questioning a lot recently and just wonder what other's thoughts are?
 
My horse is unshod and has been since November 2011. She had never had an abscess prior to having the shoes off, but has had one since about October last year which finally only burst a few weeks ago. However I will not shoe her again due to her navicular - she will wear hoof boots for the ridden work.

I think one of the issues this year has been the hideously wet weather. I know loads of horses who have had abscesses - both shod and unshod. I think unshod horses are more susceptible as the white line is not covered by the shoe and therefore more liable for tiny stones to get in, as happened with mine.

If shoeing suits you, then you have to do what is appropriate for what you want to do. Unshod doesn't suit everyone and is definitely not the easy option! :)
 
Iv never get any abscess's in my barefoot horses, but get a abscess every winter in my shod horse. I'm very on the fence with barefoot and if it works great but iv also seen to many people trying to push their horse which is clearly uncomfy, for what!!
I treat each horse different, all 5 of mine are fine bare but 1 can't cope hence the shoes
 
I've known more shod horses with accesses than unshod but have known both. The unshod one was a one off small one, the shod ones were recurring problems.

I think it is not unexpected to have one along the way if you take shoes off, just as part of the journey but repeated ones are I agree not good for horse or owner, so in that scenario you do have to balance benefit vs downside of the barefoot path.
 
All my horses are unshod/barefoot and abscesses are certainly not 'acceptable' and part of being unshod/barefoot.

I did have abscess after abscess when my chestnut mare's shoes came off (first abscess started while she was still shod). However this was because her hooves had become so mis-shapen and the white line was stretched. As soon as her hooves grew out and her white line was tight - the abscesses stopped.
 
" I think unshod horses are more susceptible as the white line is not covered by the shoe and therefore more liable for tiny stones to get in, as happened with mine. "

This had occurred to me as a possible reason too Holly Hocks. I do appreciate that a lot of barefoot horses probably are perfectly fine unshod. My question is really is it true that barefooters are more inclined to abscess and if so what is the cause?
 
Can we get some pics of these hooves OP?

I think you tend to see abscesses in recently unshod horses, either as you say because of stuff rumbling on, but more because the hoof is unhealthy, so the white line isn't tight, the frog is thrushy and the whole hoof is more open to bacteria than a GOOD bf one where everything is tight and strong.

This is going to be worse in a year were it was wet for 9 months basically - but also the diet needs assessing before the shoes come off so you set the horse up for success not failure.
 
In not quite 30 years of owning horses the only one I've had abscess was shod.

I don't expect barefoot horses to abscess and most of the ones I was working on (think 200+) didn't. Some came onto the books having abscessed previously.

I have known barefoot horses abscess where an unhealthy hoof has been subjected to trauma; typically a soft and/or thin soled horse has become bruised badly.

If a horse is on an appropriate diet/management regime for them and still doesn't grow a good hoof (and I don't mean pretty I mean sound and functional) then there may well be underlying metabolic issue. I have found this in probably all the cases I have worked on. It isn't always easy to unravel the metabolic issue, it can take months.

Wet ground doesn't mean poor hooves or abscesses. Due to circumstances beyond my control, my own horse has been in wet and very muddy clay since Oct 17 last year and yet her feet are in good condition, no thrush or abscesses. She does get to stand in a dry field shelter when she chooses.

So from my own case load/experiences abscesses aren't that common and only seem to occur in a foot with less than optimal health. I too follow forums and note the commentary about abscesses, but what you don't get on forums are the much greater numbers of people for whom having a barefoot horse is no bother at all as there is very little incentive for these people to post. Likewise when I blog I tend to post about the grotty hooves rather than the functional ones. Maybe I need to change that.
 
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MrsJingle said:
" I think unshod horses are more susceptible as the white line is not covered by the shoe and therefore more liable for tiny stones to get in, as happened with mine. "

This had occurred to me as a possible reason too Holly Hocks. I do appreciate that a lot of barefoot horses probably are perfectly fine unshod. My question is really is it true that barefooters are more inclined to abscess and if so what is the cause?
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Mine had a really tight white line, but she then went onto richer grazing, and while it didn't make her footy, I do think that at this point, the white line became compromised - my fault, and that's when the teeny tiny stone got in. I actually remember coming back from a hack and finding the stone and I thought I had got it all out.
 
MrsJingle said:
" I think unshod horses are more susceptible as the white line is not covered by the shoe and therefore more liable for tiny stones to get in, as happened with mine. "
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If a white line is sufficiently stretched to allow stones to get in, no matter how tiny, there is a problem. The WL should be very tight; easily covered by the edge of a credit card. The very tightest WLs are but a thread.
 
LucyPriory said:
If a white line is sufficiently stretched to allow stones to get in, no matter how tiny, there is a problem. The WL should be very tight; easily covered by the edge of a credit card. The very tightest WLs are but a thread.
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So my horse is now on crap daytime grazing, hay at night (took her off haylage) is fed fast fibre, Pro Hoof and micronised linseed - what more can you suggest to tighten the white line? Thanks
 
I believe there is a school of thought that abscessing when shoes removed is some sort of clearing out of nasties and even a good sign. :eek: I don't believe this myself, well not in a cleansing or good sort of way. Abscesses are a sign things aren't all they should be I think... thin soles, lgl etc.

Horses going barefoot imo shouldn't be forced to work when sore. If they have thin soles, great care needs to be taken what surfaces the horse goes on and there are pads and boots for protection. Thrush is a major source of soreness as well.
The white line in a healthy horse/hoof should be tight and doesn't need protection.

What does it mean when a horse is footy or sore without shoes? What happens if they are sore with shoes? What next?
 
My Tb mare appeared to be similar, she's had her back shoes off since Aug 11 and since then has experienced an increased number of very small, very quick draining abscesses in her back feet, though not recently. Other than that, she has been ok with her back feet barefoot. She is sound on all surfaces etc. If, when spring comes she starts abscessing again I will consult my farrier but I may well put her rear shoes back on if that will stop it happening and helps her to be comfortable.

With this horse overall, she hasn't really done well barefoot, she seemed like she was lame most of the time, she wasn't able to graze without getting footy (in the front feet), and she was in the care of an expert who tried really hard with her diet and management.

To me, having her living in such a way didn't seem worth it, so when she was returned to me she had front shoes put back on. I felt bad about it, but she seems a lot happier.
 
Well in answer to the question about the condition of her feet, no they are not good at all since being barefoot. I originally took her barefoot to improve the outer hoof wall. It was thin, crumbly and always breaking away around nail holes. Since being barefoot the outer hoof looks very, very good.

However, the frogs and heels look awful in comparison to when she was shod. The frogs look almost eaten away at the heel despite my attempts to treat for thrush, despite my farrier assuring me she has not got thrush, although the soles are tougher and very slightly more concave.

I do appreciate that this is probably a lot to do with the awful winter and the less than perfect conditions she has to live in, but even so it has made me wonder if I have been subjecting her to some sort of fashionable experimental whim.

I must reiterate, I am not criticising barefoot as such, it seems a wonderful way to go for a lot of people and their horses. I am just looking for answers as to why my particular horse would appear to abscess when unshod, but did not when shod?
 
Holly Hocks said:
So my horse is now on crap daytime grazing, hay at night (took her off haylage) is fed fast fibre, Pro Hoof and micronised linseed - what more can you suggest to tighten the white line? Thanks
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You need hands on professional experienced advice. But as per previous post there may well be an underlying and undiagnosed health issue - metabolic probably but not always.

You also refer to 'crap daytime grazing'. If 'crap' = only mud then see previous para. If crap means patchy overgrazed grass then this can be the root cause. If 'crap' means no grass but there are weeds this can also be the root cause as some weeds are very high in sugar.

My own horse is very sensitive to sugars and has only low NSC hay and a low NSC bucket feed for additional protein and minerals.
 
I was talking to my vet about this, and he said that unshod horses tend to get more abscesses . My thoughts were that it could be an indirect link to the barefoot 'lifestyle' . Abscesses occur when horses feet soften from standing in wet and dirt gets up in to the foot, so I thought that unshod horses were probably more likely to lead an 'out 24/7' lifestyle if their owners are that way inclined (natural lifestyle). So they would be out standing in wet more, and getting softer dirtier feet! In comparison with a horse that leads a more stable kept, shod lifestyle. Not saying shod horses don't live out 24/7, but barefoot horses may be more likely to

Just an idea :D
 
Hoof_Prints said:
I was talking to my vet about this, and he said that unshod horses tend to get more abscesses . My thoughts were that it could be an indirect link to the barefoot 'lifestyle' . Abscesses occur when horses feet soften from standing in wet and dirt gets up in to the foot, so I thought that unshod horses were probably more likely to lead an 'out 24/7' lifestyle if their owners are that way inclined (natural lifestyle). So they would be out standing in wet more, and getting softer dirtier feet! In comparison with a horse that leads a more stable kept, shod lifestyle. Not saying shod horses don't live out 24/7, but barefoot horses may be more likely to

Just an idea :D
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Your vet's experience does not tally with mine.

It is not my experience that abscesses are more common in barefoot horses.

Some of the posters above probably need to be looking at mineral balances in their grazing and forage. And others probably need to test fro metabolic disease if the feet abscess without protection to the white line by a shoe.

For those who can't do those things, shoeing is a sensible option.
 
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cptrayes said:
Your vet's experience does not tally with mine.

It is not my experience that abscesses are more common in barefoot horses.

Some of the posters above probably need to be looking at mineral balances in their grazing and forage. And others probably need to test fro metabolic disease if the feet abscess without protection to the white line by a shoe.

For those who can't do those things, shoeing is a sensible option.
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Ok that is fair enough, and I respect your huge amount of knowledge and experience. But why does it always come back to we as owners, are apparently not being diligent enough, be it to do with our mineral balancing, testing of forage or happily unaware that our horse's may have serious health issues that we are blithely unaware of?

Can you not accept that for very many horse's, given today's methods of keeping horses and the restrictions imposed on horse owners by the fact of a seriously overstocked countryside that is very often over fertilised etc. etc. that even trying barefoot is detrimental to the horse's health and well being and just not a realistic option.

I appreciate your statement that for those who can't do these things, then shoe them. But it can't just be me who perceives that if you FAIL to achieve successful barefoot transition it is entirely your own fault and abscessing, footy horses and a miserable existence is totally avoidable in ALL cases if we just tried harder to get it right. Or took the trouble to have our horses tested for various health problems that MUST exist if all else is being done, and said horse is still not happy barefoot?

I still don't really feel that my question has been answered in anyway other than the usual mantra. I was hoping for some real scientific reason WHY it causes abscessing in some and not others, but perhaps there isnt an answer as yet? One does wonder if we might look back on this era of barefoot enthusiasm and question what some horses were put through in a relentless effort to get them barefoot, no matter what?
 
The thing that has shocked me is finding out that it has been known for 200 years that horseshoes damage hooves. Even the recent research into dressage horses showed this... and yet shoeing is the norm.

that even trying barefoot is detrimental to the horse's health and well being and just not a realistic option.
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I think that trying barefoot is very sensible - you always have the option of putting the shoes back on it doesn't work
 
Is there any science on abscessing?
I think it's down to hoof health problems and bad luck in some cases. It can't be purely being barefoot or horses would have died out a long time ago.

It is surely the way we keep, use, feed and manage horses but does that mean we shouldn't keep trying to improve things? Why does trying to work things out mean it's some sort of mantra?

How we perceive things is our problem in the first instance. I don't know what you want anyone to say OP? People are sharing their thoughts and experiences what we each take from that is up to us.
 
amandap said:
Is there any science on abscessing?
I think it's down to hoof health problems and bad luck in some cases. It can't be purely being barefoot or horses would have died out a long time ago.

It is surely the way we keep, use, feed and manage horses but does that mean we shouldn't keep trying to improve things? Why does trying to work things out mean it's some sort of mantra?

How we perceive things is our problem in the first instance. I don't know what you want anyone to say? People are sharing their thoughts and experiences what we each take from that is up to us.
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Following on from this.

35 years ago I kept pony/horse at large livery yard just outside London. All work was on roads, small sand paddock, no turnout at all in the winter. All horses were shod as a matter of course. And forget supplements, chaff, oats, bran and hay were standard for all of them.
Never heard of a hoof abscess until I started reading here, recently. (obviously there has been a long gap in my horse ownership.

Has something changed?
 
I don't actually 'want' anyone to say anything in particular amandap? I am not posting here for reassurance about my own decisions with my own horse. I believe I made it clear in my first post that I was not looking for opinions on my particular decision?

I was merely hoping that perhaps I would read something on here that would clarify in my mind what the connection is in some horses that can go shod for many, many years, and then start to abscess when taken barefoot. And in some cases continue to abscess from that point in. But no longer abscess when re shod.

This is not looking for some sort of blessing for my personal decisions. Purely my own curious and searching mind looking for debate and education without the usual - 'Oh well just get your horse shod then if you can't do everything we say you should - and leave us barefooters alone and don't question any of our opinions!'

I am sorry if this is not possible on this subject matter and perhaps I was rather naive to think we might be able to discuss the point without hackles being raised rather unnecessarily IMO.

Thank you anyway for your input. I shall continue to research for some answers without asking for opinions from established barefooters and I apologise for having suggested that debate might be useful on this point.
 
my horse had 4 abscesses when shod and has had none since being unshod but I think in our case it's been more about getting his diet/minerals right :)
 
My hackles aren't raised I just don't know any answers except the ones I've posted. There's no need to apologize. We are all trying to do the best we can and it is often a compromise.

Aarrghimpossiblepony, from your description, grazing has changed as in more and pastures are often ex cow pasture. High grain mix concentrate feeds? Less exercize?

I do wonder if some of the smaller abscesses go unnoticed in shod hooves but this may not be the case just as easily. We don't even know if abscesses are more common in bare hooves really do we. I read about a lot in shod hooves too.
 
All our horses are barefoot. Have had one abscess which was left and sorted itself in a couple of days. Farrier had a look and decided leaving was best. None of the others have ever had them. But then they've always been unshod not transitioning.
One friends, new purchase last year, had shoes off and been sound since (had problems prior)
 
Ive had my horse for over ten years now and hes never had an abcess shod or unshod in all that time, hes been on a variety of ground types and conditions both shod and unshod.

Hes currently unshod/BF and if he suddenly developes lots of abcesses id be getting farrier to investigate and if it wasnt clearing up and was due to BF then the shoes would go back on simplez.
 
I remember when this topic came up before, I did a quick search on H&H for abscess threads as a matter of interest. There were an equal number of "Help, my horse has an abscess" threads in owners of shod and unshod horses. With the shod ones, the shoe on the offending foot had usually been removed to treat the abscess.

When I bought my horse six years ago, he had an abscess a few weeks after I got him. Farrier came, removed the shoe, and we treated the abscess. I didn't get the shoes put back on.

He does from time to time (usually in wet years) get abscesses in that same hoof. Maybe it was in some way damaged or compromised by being shod too early, when he was a very young horse. Or maybe it's just chance. Who knows? No point stressing about it.

Re the vet's opinion - IME, owners of shod horses don't call the vet, they call their farrier. I tend to call the vet because my horse isn't shod and my trimmer lives a long way away. So even based on that, my vet will have a skewed set of information about abscesses ;)

Remember, unless data has been gathered taking account of biases, you can't draw any conclusions - and the data needs to come from the people with unshod horses who have no problems at all, and hence don't post on a forum, as well as the shod horses who have clear (to me) abscess exits on their hooves that farriers seem frequently to describe as "must have knocked coronet band" ;)
 
LucyPriory said:
You need hands on professional experienced advice. But as per previous post there may well be an underlying and undiagnosed health issue - metabolic probably but not always.

You also refer to 'crap daytime grazing'. If 'crap' = only mud then see previous para. If crap means patchy overgrazed grass then this can be the root cause. If 'crap' means no grass but there are weeds this can also be the root cause as some weeds are very high in sugar.

My own horse is very sensitive to sugars and has only low NSC hay and a low NSC bucket feed for additional protein and minerals.
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Thanks Lucy
Crap daytime grazing at the moment is because the spring grass hasn't come through - there just isn't much of it.

My trimmers (I've had two as the first one stopped coming as far as my area and the one I currently use is the same one as Oberon uses so I know is good) say that she has excellent feet - the soles are rock hard and everything is as it should be. Even the vets when she had the abscess commented on how good her feet were.

I suppose on the plus side, I've only had the one abscess - even though it was a stubborn ****** to shift. I'll up the Pro Hoof to a full scoop per day and see if that helps. Thanks for your input.
 
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