Adelinde Cornelissen - A Rant!!

Katikins

Katikins

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 March 2010
Messages
772
Location
Den Haag, Netherlands
Visit site
OK, I've made a point of watching all her tests and I just need to make this post because I feel like I might be completely blind or over-reacting!! Now living in the Netherlands I support Britain first and the Netherlands second in all sports with the exception of the dressage due to the training methods (I will quickly take Edward Gal out of this equation as I think he rode Undercover beautifully and softly all week).

But, how Adelinde managed to get the scores she did, in my mind, is a travesty! Parzival looked tense the entire time in EVERY test especially through his lower neck and jaw and Adelinde was constantly leaning back with arms that looked hard as iron. In the GP Special he was grinding his teeth so hard throughout the entire thing I wonder if he actually has any left!

Now, for the Kur I made a point of just watching his legs to try and see what everybody else is seeing and he does do all the right things down there and he was almost bang on the music throughout his test but the overall picture just looked ugly to me. But I thought that Laura's test was leagues ahead of this, Alf was just wonderful and the entire test looked effortless and fluid. I nearly burst into tears when she finished.

So, could someone please tell me that I'm mad and I'm just seeing things (maybe my prejudices are getting the better of me) as even the H&H editor seems to disagree with me:

" I just couldn’t surpress a deep, gnawing feeling that — to my eyes at least — Adelinde’s test was the best today. It was sublime — those rotating piaffes, the beautifully choreographed canter pirouettes, executed bang on the beat of the music. It left me mesmerised — and a trifle flat. That’s it, I thought — the Dutch may have it."
Click to expand...

OK, rant over. Overall its been a brilliant Olympics for our equestrian team and I'd like to say how proud I am (we all are) of William, Tina, Mary, Zara, Nicola, Ben, Scott, Peter, Nick, Richard, Carl, Laura and Charlotte! And of course all those associated with all horses and riders. Bask in the glory for as long as you can :)
 
Katikins said:
But, how Adelinde managed to get the scores she did, in my mind, is a travesty! Parzival looked tense the entire time in EVERY test especially through his lower neck and jaw and Adelinde was constantly leaning back with arms that looked hard as iron. In the GP Special he was grinding his teeth so hard throughout the entire thing I wonder if he actually has any left!

Now, for the Kur I made a point of just watching his legs to try and see what everybody else is seeing and he does do all the right things down there and he was almost bang on the music throughout his test but the overall picture just looked ugly to me. But I thought that Laura's test was leagues ahead of this, Alf was just wonderful and the entire test looked effortless and fluid. I nearly burst into tears when she finished.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that.
PLUS, I think 'tense' is quite polite about the jaw, it was rigid, and he was over bent for a good bit of the time. I totally agree Laura should have been closer if not above.
 
I thought it was just me. I felt that Parzival was rigid throughout the test - even in extension his head and neck didn't move.
 
totally agree, laura and alf to me rode a much better kur, leagues ahead of parzivals tense, stilted unhappy looking kur. I think Laura and alf were robbed, there is no way to my mind that they should have been nearly 4% behind parzivals score.
 
No I don't think you're mad, and judging by many posts on here, neither do many HHOers.

I too was baffled by the mark yesterday. Apart from the tension, some of the work just wasn't correct! The piaffes largely consisted on weight on the forehand, forelegs marching heavily and the back end bouncing up and down in a disconnected way. Considering that piaffe is the precursor to levade, I could see no earthly way Parzifal would've been able to sit on his hocks and lift both legs up from such a piaffe.

Therefore, surely it is incorrect and should've been marked down?

If this forum is a barometer, then perhaps increasingly people are questioning the way dressage has gone, both in the execution of the movements and the training.

Or maybe were both mad!
 
I know very little about dressage (have learned lots though this week from the comments on here) but what I couldn't get over was the way she was leaning back nearly all the time, and her hands and arms seemed totally rigid and unyielding. My daughter would have received a bo****king if she had ridden like that at Pony Club as a child. Parzival also seemed to have his mouth open a lot of the time, which I didn't notice in other horses.
I think Judy H did a great job in her commentary with her several remarks about his way of going, and in particular at the end when she said the Brits had been rewarded for their correct training methods.
 
Thank god!!! I've never trained in dressage past what was required of Novice Eventing so am by no means an expert and thought I was getting early onset dementia. Thank you HHO for confirming my (little remaining) sanity :)

I also agree with the mouth being open, he just didn't look a happy bunny at all. Poor boy!! And I too would probably have got a smack round the head in PC if I'd ever ridden any of my horses like that - and quite rightly too!!
 
Have to say Laura B's riding seemed a bit more forceful than Carl and Charlotte's and to my eye less pleasing, but I think that may be just that Alf is a lot of horse!

Despite this, his work was so much nicer, softer and more fluid than Parzival's.
 
I had a friend, who isn't in the slightest horsey!, texting me as she watched the dressage tests. She said Laura looked amazing, and so was Carl, but then she said she was gobsmacked at the Dutch lassie, and how good her test was.

I then went on to say no it isn't... she replied that the commentators were liking it. I told her that they will have to be tactful about what they say but I'm sure Judy Harvey made a comment somewhere about being behind the vertical. Also told my friend to watch his mouth and neck. She then said she didn't really understand anything but that the test looked correct, to her untrained eye.

I then told her that if she though Adelinde was good, then she'd be amazed when Charlotte brought the house down. Which she did.

So to the untrained eye, Adelinde's test looked good. Obviously they went into London and offered a few homeless folk a job as a dressage judge for a day or two - but they were to make sure GB didn't come 1,2,3.

Politics....
 
I'm so glad that other people felt the same, I also thought the horse was tense & over bent, when the replay was on they did a close up of the horse's mouth & his tongue looked like it was bulging under the presure of the bit, maybe that's just his conformation but it didn't look very comfortable.
I thought Charlotte's test was a shining example of what dressage should be, whereas the other test was the complete opposite - odd that the same judges like them both so much.
 
The footage I watched had a close up of his gaping open mouth, covered in foam and a distinct purple tinge to his tongue..... very sad. Personally I thought it was marked way too highly and it should certainly have been below Laura, and Carl and the German lady riding Damon Hill.

I thought that both Fuego and Rubi were too harshly marked too, both horses did an absolutely textbook piaffe that was a joy to see. They were also both on the beat and in time.

The light riding of Carl, Charlotte, the Spanish and Portugese riders was such a contrast to the heavy handedness of Adelinde, Patrick etc.
 
BeesKnees said:
Have to say Laura B's riding seemed a bit more forceful than Carl and Charlotte's and to my eye less pleasing, but I think that may be just that Alf is a lot of horse!

Despite this, his work was so much nicer, softer and more fluid than Parzival's.
Click to expand...

Agree ^ ^
 
turkana said:
I'm so glad that other people felt the same, I also thought the horse was tense & over bent, when the replay was on they did a close up of the horse's mouth & his tongue looked like it was bulging under the presure of the bit, maybe that's just his conformation but it didn't look very comfortable.
I thought Charlotte's test was a shining example of what dressage should be, whereas the other test was the complete opposite - odd that the same judges like them both so much.
Click to expand...

In reality it probably balanced out - the old style judging and the new - and to that extent the result was a reflection of where we are - but it does look a bit odd in the line up.
There is always 'backstory' in dressage judging, I have discussed this with top trainers and judges in the past, and they see no problem at all with not entirely judging the horse on the day, but bringing his 'backstory' with him - one of the most frustratingly annoying things in the sport I think.

In the past it's worked against us (look, Salinero *didn't* halt, no, but you know, it's Anky?) and now to some extent the tables have turned (Parsifal *was* very correct, yes, but you know he *did* look tense and we all know why that is, don't we?) - but we are (hoepfully) in a cross over period, and the old guard will eventually hop the twig (or retire graciously!) and the sport will be the winner.
 
BeesKnees said:
Have to say Laura B's riding seemed a bit more forceful than Carl and Charlotte's and to my eye less pleasing, but I think that may be just that Alf is a lot of horse!

Despite this, his work was so much nicer, softer and more fluid than Parzival's.
Click to expand...

Thanks, BeesKnees, for posting what I was thinking while watching Laura's test. Her arms and back were stiff and, seemingly, unyielding. Alf is one heck of a big boy and I thought perhaps he was on the verge of "acting up" and she was nipping it in the bud. And yes, his work was so much lighter and more supple than Parzival's. And Parzival seemed to be behind the vertical for much of his test.
 
BeesKnees said:
No I don't think you're mad, and judging by many posts on here, neither do many HHOers.

If this forum is a barometer, then perhaps increasingly people are questioning the way dressage has gone, both in the execution of the movements and the training.

Or maybe were both mad!
Click to expand...

If FB is anything like HHO then there are many people voicing their disapproval of her test, s owe are all mad!

The LDR/Rollkur got results, rightly or wrongly, for them so others would copy (and maybe misinterpret the original intention) to try and get those same results.

Hopefully as people see medals won, records broken, money made by those using another method then we will see changes. It's a pity it comes down to that but for many this is a business :(

Lets home the level of exposure and criticism levied at those (allegedly :p) using rollkur in these games will make start to make it unfashionable too
 
I pretty much agree word for word with skewbaldpony.
Let's hope it's correct and we are in a transition period re judging, and it won't be long before the marks truly reflect the better tests.
Its a similar thing I think with fat showing horses, some judges will still reward it but many are now marking them down.
It takes time to change things but
hopefully we are heading in the right direction. Yesterdays results aren't exactly as we'd like them but still so much better judging than in the past.
 
ribbons said:
I pretty much agree word for word with skewbaldpony.
Let's hope it's correct and we are in a transition period re judging, and it won't be long before the marks truly reflect the better tests.
Its a similar thing I think with fat showing horses, some judges will still reward it but many are now marking them down.
It takes time to change things but
hopefully we are heading in the right direction. Yesterdays results aren't exactly as we'd like them but still so much better judging than in the past.
Click to expand...

We need a 'like' button on HHO :D
 
Everyone i have spoken to thinks the same! also is it true that Valegro will be sold now, will this be another Totilas scenario where just because the horse is exceptional with one rider it will be with another. I am just a mere bystander, and there are probally things that i dont see or understand but i know which looked better and it was definitely Laura, they just looked relaxed and happy and Alf was fluid it looked effortless, not the same as Parcivals test at all, i thought the horse was supposed to be accepting so why is his mouth open the whole time?
 
Also a huge pat on the back for Carl, laura etc for encouraging a more fluid relaxed style, letting the horse show its true talents, maybe this will become the expected way of going rather than a tense horse jacked in at the front, Alf/Uthopia/Valegro all looked like happy relaxed horses Parzival did not, if only horses could talk!
 
NooNoo59 said:
Also a huge pat on the back for Carl, laura etc for encouraging a more fluid relaxed style, letting the horse show its true talents, maybe this will become the expected way of going rather than a tense horse jacked in at the front, Alf/Uthopia/Valegro all looked like happy relaxed horses Parzival did not, if only horses could talk!
Click to expand...

Yep, I'd have paid good money to have seen Alf on the sofa this morning :D
 
Totally agree with all the comments re Charlotte and Carl versus Adelinde. Their horses looked so much happier and relaxed in their way of going. Hope it is a sign of things to come. Shame about Carl but Uti did seem to run out of steam half way through their test. Think in an interview later that Carl said that he was tired. Thought that Laura's test was much better than her other 2 tests and she deserved the bronze. Loved her music it suited Alf so well. She does ride Alf with strong hands but think it is down to his size and strength - have seen a video of her riding younger horses and she is much softer with her hands on them.
 
Katikins said:
OK, I've made a point of watching all her tests and I just need to make this post because I feel like I might be completely blind or over-reacting!! Now living in the Netherlands I support Britain first and the Netherlands second in all sports with the exception of the dressage due to the training methods (I will quickly take Edward Gal out of this equation as I think he rode Undercover beautifully and softly all week).

But, how Adelinde managed to get the scores she did, in my mind, is a travesty! Parzival looked tense the entire time in EVERY test especially through his lower neck and jaw and Adelinde was constantly leaning back with arms that looked hard as iron. In the GP Special he was grinding his teeth so hard throughout the entire thing I wonder if he actually has any left!

Now, for the Kur I made a point of just watching his legs to try and see what everybody else is seeing and he does do all the right things down there and he was almost bang on the music throughout his test but the overall picture just looked ugly to me. But I thought that Laura's test was leagues ahead of this, Alf was just wonderful and the entire test looked effortless and fluid. I nearly burst into tears when she finished.

So, could someone please tell me that I'm mad and I'm just seeing things (maybe my prejudices are getting the better of me) as even the H&H editor seems to disagree with me:



OK, rant over. Overall its been a brilliant Olympics for our equestrian team and I'd like to say how proud I am (we all are) of William, Tina, Mary, Zara, Nicola, Ben, Scott, Peter, Nick, Richard, Carl, Laura and Charlotte! And of course all those associated with all horses and riders. Bask in the glory for as long as you can :)
Click to expand...
I witnessed Andelinde working in before her freestyle test. Her horse was constanly held behind the vertical throughout the warm up. When he became too hyperflexed the FEI steward that was overseeing the arena would conveniently look away! I am disgusted with a lot of what I have seen by riders & officials & it has left me with a sour taste in my mouth towards these so called top riders.
Not once did I see Laura, Carl or Charlotte ride in this manner!!! (Laura has a problem with Alf becoming too strong, which is why sometimes she looks a little jerky with him, & he is a huge powerful horse.) :0(((
 
Well I'm no dressage rider but I would definatley have marked Laura above Adelinde (and not just because she's British!:rolleyes:) I too, thought they looked tense throughout the test. I actually preferred Laura's to Charlotte's - But then again, I know nothing lol. :o
 
Re: the comments about Laura looking like she was 'holding' Alf, does anybody not think it's kind of comical?

She still manages to make the test look effortless but I think if we could hear them talk to eachother it would go something like

Alf - I think I might just piss off in this extended canter, what do you think?'

Laura - 'Oh no you won't you big brute, here are my iron hands try run through them!'

Alf - 'Just because I'm looking pretty and definitely going to win you a medal, doesn't mean I'm making it easy. You better watch my extended trot, I COULD just carry on over the boards'

Laura - 'No chance. I'll sell you to Adelinde if you even try. And you think my hands are strong. How do you fancy a blue tongue'

Alf - 'Fine, here's my best Piaffe. Better hold on! And for the record, I'm not being held responsible for anything naughty I might do in the lap of honour. And if you don't watch what you're doing, Ill bounce so that medal flies up and knocks out your teeth'

-silence-

'I love you Alf'

'love you too mum'



I love their chemistry!
 
Last edited:
For what it's worth I though Alf lacked sparkle for the GP and Special, he was much better in the Kur but you could still see Laura having to use her hands and seat a bit. Uthopia did look a bit knackered in the Kur. Parcival's music and choreography were superb, he has, at times, tense in the neck, but his piaffe looked just perfect to me.

Of the Spanish team I love Painted Black and his young rider did a super job with him, but I think he got progressively more tired and mistakes crept in - a big as for both of them though. Fuego was a bit uninspiring to start off with and short in his neck, but got better and better with his best at the Kur, while Grandioso did little for me and was far more BTV (especially his GP) than Parcival ever was, despite the classical/rollkur stuff.

Valegro was lovely!
 
Mlini said:
Well I'm no dressage rider but I would definatley have marked Laura above Adelinde (and not just because she's British!:rolleyes:) I too, thought they looked tense throughout the test. I actually preferred Laura's to Charlotte's - But then again, I know nothing lol. :o
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with you there. Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted for Charlotte, but I did feel that Laura's test was fault free, whereas Charlotte had two mistakes, one very large one with the last piaffe, and scarely a halt at the end. I suppose that's where the freestyle comes in though, if you get one good piaffe it doesn't matter if the others are a bit off.

I thought Parzival looked unhappy in the mouth and overbent, as per usual, I wouldn't have had her in the top 5. Damon Hill I thought went much better, and I'd have probably gone Laura, Damon Hill, Charlotte if i'd been judging!

Fuego I thought lacked a bit of flow from back end to front, although i agree his collected work was stunning, so I think on balance I'd have marked him the same. I actually thought the bay Iberian that came a lot earlier (can't recall his name) went better...

Finally, I thought Steffan Peters and Ravel did a lovely test, with the horse in beautiful self carriage. I would have had them much higher up.. that's dressage though, it is subjective!
 
Mlini said:
Well I'm no dressage rider but I would definatley have marked Laura above Adelinde (and not just because she's British!:rolleyes:) I too, thought they looked tense throughout the test. I actually preferred Laura's to Charlotte's - But then again, I know nothing lol. :o
Click to expand...

I agree - also loved some of the Spanish and Portuguese horses.
 
I have to say I too found many of the Dutch riders (not Edward Gal, I feel he maybe does not support Rolkur? His horses always appeared far more relaxed?) tests to be incomfortable viewing throughout, it is a shame that something was done but it is not upheld!
The British riders were beautiful, I do think Uti lost a bit of spark to the end, I think that he said he doesn't like to do too many tests on Uti, could be that? The music for all the British was powerful, it was emotional!
But Ankys horse now appears to have lost all his sparkle, age? Or no tongue left? Ankys used to be so sparky and full of life!
 
I have just been looking through some of my photographs taken on day 2 of the Grand Prix. I have images of Parzival, Damon Hill, Eremo Del Castegno, Artemis & Valegro all doing Piaffe at the same point in the test.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54855139@N00/
On looking very carefully the the pictures on their largest settings the rider using the curb rein the least is Richard Davison.
This is just an observation as I no longer ride and previously only watched dressage on TV. I thoroughly enjoyed both my days at Greenwich, wonderful atmosphere, fabulous horses........great
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top