Adrian...last ditch post...diagnose my horse please...??

Ellen is very good but not always organised!
Booboos, re: your comment about neurological damage caused by saddle, please tell us more (or pm me, please), what symptoms, make of saddle etc, i'd be really really interested to know more. thankyou.
 
Hi Catembi,

I'm really sorry to hear about your lad :o

May I ask what you are feeding?
How quality your grazing is? (ie is it regularly rested / harrowed / sprayed / fertilised etc?)
What hard feed he is getting?
Whether the water is mains / bore hole / well / pond?
How the other horses are / whether they are all out together & being fed the same?

...sorry for all the Qs! I suspect your horse may be showing secondary symptoms caused by a substantial vitamin / mineral / micronutrient deficiency and I'm trying to figure out what it might be :)
 
Feeding (twice a day) 1/3 scoop pasture mix, 1/3 scoop sugar beet, 2/3 alfa A, 20 ml aloe vera, one milk thistle, one slice hay. Our soil is v free draining & we barely have any grass. Harrowed twice a week. I spray the nettles with grazeon-90 once a year, & keep them out of the field until the nettles have died back & become unpalatable.

The other 2, Trev the racer & Jenny the old retired mare, are fed 1 scoop calm & cond, 1/2 scoop weight gain, 1/2 scoop sugar beet, one scoop alfa-a & 2 50ml scoops of linseed twice a day with one slice hay. Trev has been slow since I got him in March & it's hard to tell with Jenny as she is extremely old. She mooches about quite happily & can run off if I want to catch her.

I called a field maintenance guy 2 days ago who will hopefully come at the w'end as we have v little grass. I'm hoping he can suggest a program.

Must go to bed & will come back tomo. Thank you everyone for your help so far. I really appreciate it as I'm losing heart.
 
I don't think he looks majorly hairy... mine still haven't lost their winter coats, albeit they had less of a clip than he has.

Nor do I think he looks over or under weight - about right.

Apart from everything every one else has said, I'd try and move him to different pasture, cut out all his hard feed, for at least a month..... and no semblance of riding either. It may be that he's become allergic to something, as odd and vague as his bit, the feed, something in his hay, even the grass.

Yonks ago I had what I thought was Glandular Fever. Didn't show up in the bloods. But I was totally whacked. Could only stay awake for literally 1/2hr an hour at time. Spent virtually a month just sleeping. Nothing, totally nothing showed up in any of the tests and I'm sure the Docs though I was making it up. It was horrible.

Total R&R is what cured it.... and it took a further 4yrs for me to feel fully better and not get ill every time I was tired.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are these things which are a total mystery....

So maybe total R&R, like 100% turnout, no hard feed, no rugs, no nothing, is what he needs? I don't know. I'm clutching at straws.

I hope you can find out what it is.

x
 
Has anyone discussed EPSM? Unfortunately the actual test for it is invasive and apparently not 100%, but the general protocol seems to be to go with the dietary recommendations in the "can't hurt, might help" vein.

Also, particularly given his colour, has there been any question about melanomas? I've known a couple of horses that had only internal ones. It sounds like an awful option but there are some good drug protocols for it now.

Have you done kidney function tests? Again, rare, but not unheard of. Usually goes with excessive drinking though, so not likely here, I guess.

Herpes? I had a horse in for training with a long standing herpes infection. He didn't look like your horse but he did have some odd symptoms and the vet who finally diagnosed him said it can affect very individually. He did have to do a long course of anti-virals but it fixed him.

And yes, definitely look at the heart tests. A friends horse - competing at 4* - kept getting what was presumed to be "a virus" and turned out to have a seriously enlarged heart.
 
Random question- but are you near motorway/busy road?

We had heard of 8 living out, different ages different breeds- 3 (4yr old welshxtb geld, 18yr old welshx tb mare and ish 7yr gelding) all became very poorly, skin and hair problems, no energy, the mare was also showing signs of flu. count the ribs despite feeding etc. Others were fine

there were similarities and differences between the three and all tests were coming up blank. (with 4 vets from 2 different practices). In the end the 4yr was sent away to a field with good grass and other youngsters, lived out without a rug all winter and came in to spring a different horse, never had any probs since- mare went to a friends home in wales and after a year was back out doing low key pc, and the ish who was the worst spent along time in the stables with daily good grazing t/o etc. Eventually he was sold as a hack fun horse. He never came back to his job as eventer and when he left a yr on he was a shadow of himself. But now new owners send us photos etc and he looks brilliant and is happy self again.

Following year a mare foaled out there (didn't know she was pregnant!!) in the ditch and he was poorly for 15mnths only now is he a "normal" 2yr old. he was treated for everything

We never found out what was wrong, and only thing we could put it don to was the field is adjacent to the m25, (so motorway, noise barrier, steep vertical drop/bank, post and rail fence and then field.)

we now no longer use it for grazing and it is rented out for quad bikes etc

Im sorry you are having so many problems. I think all the above mentioned tests are good idea, but what about sending him to somewhere with grass and a different friend for 6-8weeks and see how he gets on?! at this point you have little to lose!

Best of luck, thoughts and prayers are with you both.xxxxx
 
It won't let me edit, but just to add on, I don't know how long he hasn;t been "right" but maybe mother nature, in the sense of a new field with good grazing should be considered- there is little mother nature and time can't heal
 
It looks like you have a plan then: bloods (haematology, biochemistry, serology for Borellia - Lymes etc) and ECG/Echocardiogram for starters. A urine sample is very cheap and can give some pointers too.....if you can get one!

I freely admit to knowing nothing about equine medicine anymore but could suggest lots more avenues to try if he was small and furry and went woof or miaow! I presume you are using a vet specialising in horses?

I hope you get it sorted. Adrian is lucky to have such a caring Mum!
 
i was going to suggest EPSM too.
The things to avoid in the diet for this are everything you are feeding him. The recommended diet is very fat based.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

here is a link to some info, but google it and you will get a lot more. Dont rule it out because its more commonly warmbloods/heavy breeds. I know 2 ISH who have it confirmed by a muscle biopsy.
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/illnesses_injuries/EPSM110503/
 
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catembi said:
Trev has been slow since I got him in March & it's hard to tell with Jenny as she is extremely old. She mooches about quite happily & can run off if I want to catch her.

I called a field maintenance guy 2 days ago who will hopefully come at the w'end as we have v little grass. I'm hoping he can suggest a program.
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Thats an interesting remark. Do you know if Trev has always been quiet? I would get your soil tested, I think there was a post about selenium (sp?) poisoning and worth considering.

I really feel for you, it must be extremely frustrating. I would make a list of everyones suggestions and put them in order of importance to you and start from there, funds permitting.
 
I'm worried about him being podgy, so he's currently on (twice a day) about 1/3 scoop each of pasture mix & sugar beet (less rather than more) and about 2/3 scoop alfa A, around 20 ml of aloe vera & a milk thistle capsule undone & sprinkled on. Plus a slice of hay am & pm.
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I'd up his feed, personally. I don't think he looks podgy (quite the reverse), and a horse that feels unwell doesn't need it's grub restricted. I'd think about putting him on a much higher calorie diet (Redmills Horsecare cubes are fantastic), Alpha A Oil and the sugar beat. Calories = energy. I'd also be looking for the absolutely best grazing that I could get him on.

I also wouldn't work him in any way until he looked well in himself.

Do you rug him when it's colder??
 
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i wouldn't put him on any cubes at all though, just Readigrass or Graze-On if grass is sparse, and Alfa A, and a good multivitamin and mineral supplement. No grain at all, just in case he has got an allergy.
 
Ditto on the selenium, I had a friend years ago who had an amazing black showjumper, they had no probs for a while and then he just went downhill. He was if I remember rightly suffering from selenium (i was convinced it was deficiency but might have been too much), the grass in his area and hay exasperated the problem.
Best of luck. I really hope you find the core problem.
 
catembi said:
Feeding (twice a day) 1/3 scoop pasture mix, 1/3 scoop sugar beet, 2/3 alfa A, 20 ml aloe vera, one milk thistle, one slice hay. Our soil is v free draining & we barely have any grass. Harrowed twice a week. I spray the nettles with grazeon-90 once a year, & keep them out of the field until the nettles have died back & become unpalatable.

The other 2, Trev the racer & Jenny the old retired mare, are fed 1 scoop calm & cond, 1/2 scoop weight gain, 1/2 scoop sugar beet, one scoop alfa-a & 2 50ml scoops of linseed twice a day with one slice hay. Trev has been slow since I got him in March & it's hard to tell with Jenny as she is extremely old. She mooches about quite happily & can run off if I want to catch her.

I called a field maintenance guy 2 days ago who will hopefully come at the w'end as we have v little grass. I'm hoping he can suggest a program.

Must go to bed & will come back tomo. Thank you everyone for your help so far. I really appreciate it as I'm losing heart.
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Thanks for all the info Catembi :)

May I ask why you feed so little hay? Even with the cereals and beet you are feeding, I think the horses are probably not getting enough forage based fibre :confused: As a guideline a big horse (650kg) on poor grazing should be fed 13kg of good quality hay per day-I imagine yours (if it is small bale hay) are probably getting about a quarter of that?

Also you should probably be feeding a vit and min supplement? and providing a salt lick?

It may not fix the problem but I'm sure it would help :)
 
Couldnt view this post and not try and help .... Silver Lining Herbs were great, or I can second radionics there is a v good lady in Northampton pm me if you want her details. For soil testing there is a company called 'Soil Mechanics Southam - based in Warwickshire' or 'Soiltechnics in Northampton'. We use them for testing on site, they might not do enough detail for your soil test, but equally might be able to suggest someone else.

If he were mine I would ad lib good quality hay. Dont know where you source it from but if it is near your grazing and you were concerned of the soil - I would try and get a batch from a distance.

Thats as much as I can help sorry.
 
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I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been mentioned.

Has Adrian been tested (think its done by muscle biopsy) for EPSM? Although its predominationately heavier horses, I presume Adrian does have some ID genes.

Good luck getting the bottom of this
 
Our soil is v free draining & we barely have any grass. Harrowed twice a week. I spray the nettles with grazeon-90 once a year, & keep them out of the field until the nettles have died back & become unpalatable.

The other 2, Trev the racer & Jenny the old retired mare, are fed 1 scoop calm & cond, 1/2 scoop weight gain, 1/2 scoop sugar beet, one scoop alfa-a & 2 50ml scoops of linseed twice a day with one slice hay. Trev has been slow since I got him in March & it's hard to tell with Jenny as she is extremely old. She mooches about quite happily & can run off if I want to catch her.
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Sorry if this is stating the obvious - but do your horses just need to be fed more??

You have no grazing - yet are harrowing twice a week (so preventing any grazing really from comming through), and are feeding your horses minimally.

I wonder if Adrian's (and the ex racer??) problem is simply just down to management and you just need to feed more. If you have no grass - stick a round bale of hay or haylage out??
 
catembi said:
. 3rd vet said v unlikely to be diabetes, & Rossdales did a thyroid function test which was apparently normal.
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What a ridiculous thing for a vet to say... why would it be highly unlikely to be diabetes? Any laminitic horse is basically like a human with type 2 diabetes. Looking at the photos of him he looks potentially Cushingoids or IR - a post on the Metabolic Horse this morning from Jackie Taylor - she says:

"I wasn't worried about the late shedding as they all were but now I'm
> worried. It isn't really long and not curly like cushings ponies I have
> known in the past but could it still be early cushings?

Yes it could. My old mare used to grow three coats per year - her winter
coat was shed to a spring fuzzt=y coat, which was then onmly shed in about
June for a proper summer coat for five minutes before she started to get
fuzzy again.

>If it isn't are there any other things that might cause a longer coat?
>Thanks

Not generally no, coat changes are nearly always Cushingoid in my
experience.

Jackie "
 
me neither i got to page 4 !! woops sorry

I know you said he lives out 24/7 but how about bringing him in??

Also have you tried taking up to Newmarket to Sue Dyson?? my friend took her mare there when they ran out of ideas and she found a bone moved in her poll which is why she couldnt take dressage anymore !

other than that i am just so so sorry it is so hard x
 
I would really consider that that he is deficient in Vit E/Selenium. We have had a few horses in our area that have gone terribly lethargic (my old boy inlcuded. Started refusing jumping, went from a very forward going pony to needing to kick). Vet blood tested and came back deficient. We put them on Selenvite and within weeks they all picked up. (did occur at different times).

The deficiency is in the soil.
 
Re hay... I'm not feeding more because I simply can't get hold of it! There is a big hay & straw merchant in our road who gets hay from all over & he hasn't got any. Cecil Sale has got some but won't sell me any. I've tried several other places & they won't even reply to me. O/h managed to get 15 bales from an old farmer where we kept the horses before we got our own place. It isn't brilliant, but it was that or nothing. I can get horsehage but it is very ££££££ & PetPlan haven't decided if they're paying our o/s £3.5k bill yet.

I am at lunch, so I'm about to make a list of vet things to try, alternative therapies, field-related, management etc & get them in some sort of order. It is hard to know where to start because if I change too much at once, I'm going to muddy the waters.

If I got a round haylage bale, which are advertised locally for £20, haven't I only got 5 days to use it, & is it likely that 2 1/2 horses wouldn't be able to eat it in 5 days?

Trev is putting on weight slowly but surely on his current feed, & Jenny is too now that Adrian is stabled at mealtimes. Trev was laid back even when I tried him on a horrible day on a windswept hill. That's just how he is. Goodness knows how he managed to win & place in so many races.

Yes A's well rugged as necessary & has a double field shelter which he does use. He hates being in the stable & stamps about.

No we're nowhere near busy roads. Maybe 5 miles from the A1? We are in the middle of nowhere between a village & a hamlet, & the fields are set back from the road, behind the house, in the middle of farmland.

The only time he has perked up was about 2 weeks ago. We were practising loading T, so we loaded J first and then T, & A went bananas, screaming his head off & threatening to jump the gate from a standstill. Then when he realised that he wasn't being left behind, he reverted to normal.

Right, list time. What a lot of helpful posts to sort through. then I will ring vets no 3 this pm with an action plan.
 
The more I read, the more I'm convinced this is a management issue.

Buy horsehage if you're reluctant to use the big round bales (expensive, but your horses need to eat).

I can understand your concern over the round bales - but hay can be eaten over a longer period of time. And providing the weather doesn't heat up again, then a haylage round bale should be ok too. However, instead of putting it in the field - you coul feed it throughout the day - ensuring there's no waste, and enabling you to manage the bale better by opening it up if you feel it's getting too warm.

It's all very well people suggesting this suppliment and that suppliment, this test and that test. But if your horses aren't getting the basic nutritional requirements - then you're just wasting your money and your vets time.
 
A friend of mine has a horse who suddenly went downhill, a bit like Adrian. His seemed to start as a breathing problem (vets thought maybe COPD) as he came in from the field heaving but has just not been the same since. It's been going on for a good 18 months to 2 years, she has spent about 8K in attempting to get a diagnosis and various treatments. He is an Irish coloured cob so quite hairy anyway but she has got to the point when he has to be clipped out monthly at least. He is never the right temperature, was mostly standing around in the field looking fed up and miserable, breathing problems, lethargy, horrible coat, then one day he just collapsed. He spent 2 weeks in vet hospital having ABs and all sorts pumped into him but they still don't know exactly what was wrong. Local vets have tried everything, he's been to Liverpool and somewhere else as well for scans and various work ups.

They tested and treated for:
- liver fluke (worth a thought?)
- diabetes
- thyroid problems (I think this can go hand in hand with diabetes possibly though?)
- COPD
- Cushings
- he has been scoped for ulcers, had an MRI, every type of test you can imagine
- constant blood tests to check liver, kidney etc function
- heart and lungs tested

His white cell count was very low for a long time - vet said they couldn't test for a tumour so basically the only way they could tell he had that for sure was to rule everything else out... She had a horse whisperer out who said he was recovering from a very bad virus.

She then moved yards (had been at the same yard for maybe 4 years), somewhere a good 40 min drive away from the previous one, and he is totally different. He still struggles with his breathing so there is an underlying respiratory problem, and he can't cope well in the heat, but he looks a totally different horse. I don't know what was different about the new place but something has changed and so has the horse.

Can you look at moving him to different grazing for a while? Even see if he could go as a grass livery to somewhere with plenty of good grass and just chuck him out for a few months?
 
Your horses sound like they need more hay, especially if there is very little grass. Can you not bulk buy horsehage or buy big bale hayledge?
We had 2 horses on it (16h) and the bale was finished in 4 days.

Was chatting to friend who was complaining about not enough rain for silage, and suddenly occured to me that your Horse could have botulisim?
 
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