Advice about youngster

[daydreamer]

Hi, I'll try and keep this as brief as possible!

I have a 4yo gelding who I have had since he was 6 months old. He is my first youngster. He is very good to lead, hindquarters away, back, sideways in hand etc. He can circle on a lunge line in walk and trot (I've just enough to establish the aids) and I've long-lined him in the field. He has been pretty easy so far (but I'm beginning to wonder if when he has said no I've backed off too much and let him get away with saying "I don't want to"). I progressed to sitting on bareback, then did a couple of short walk sessions in a dodgy saddle and then his new saddle came about a week ago.

I did a 10 min walk out following another horse, on a route he knows, but got a friend to hold the lead rope. He rushed a bit but relaxed near the end. A couple of days later I tried walking him 3/4 of the way around in hand then popping on as I have seen people say this has worked well. He started ok but then got anxious and planted a lot (I probably over-faced him ) I got off, led him to about 30m from his field, popped on again and we walked to the field ok. A couple of days later I walked him in hand to the last 30m, popped on, had a bit of stopping, some drifting, some jogging then a walk and got off. Today the same nanny horse came and we planned to do the same route, the first 1/3 was great, he was walking and seemed relaxed and then we turned a corner and he got more and more anxious and was jogging, tried to bite the horse in front, tried to bite my friend who was on foot. We stopped and let him chill out then carried on. He was better but still tense and jig-joggy, we stopped after some nice walk though and i got off, just slightly before home.

I'm now worried I'm going to ruin him if I carry on myself. It is a 24/7 turnout yard so I don't really know the other owners that well so it is a bit tricky finding hacking partners and I'm not always the most confident of hackers.

Do I....

• look for somewhere local to send him away to
• send him further away (I have been following Jason Webb's programme so would love to send him to him or someone like him)
• look for a yard to move with move to with more support
• carry on where I am but try and do a few sessions in the school (a 15 min walk away) so I feel like I have more control
• get someone else in to ride him where he is

??

I do have a good instructor who is used to youngsters and has helped me with the initial sit-ons and some long-reining.

If I do send him away it would probably have to be early next spring as I was probably going to give him the autumn and winter off (I'm a teacher so busy at work plus daylight/weather won't be in our favour).

I can't decide whether I am being sensible and open to admitting my inadequacies or whether I am being melodramatic and impatient!

 

[planete]

Have you long-reined him on the routes you ride on? I have one now who lacks confidence and leading first, then long-reining him on a route I want to ride is a great help. Also making sure the basic aids as well as voice commands are established in a familiar place before venturing out. And lots of praise and reward for any hints of cooperation as well as giving time to become familiar with anything they find suspicious. It does take time though, more like weeks than days. You have got so far by yourself already, I would be inclined to use your instructor more, perhaps getting her to be with you to long rein and ride out at first.

 

[visa_bot]

It sounds like you do need some help. This stage is so important for the future ahead, you don’t want bad habits to form. It’s much better to nip in the bud and that takes experience. A friend has used Jason Webb and really rates him. You’ve got to the point he can lunge and be sat on so I would wait until you can send him away next year.

 

[daydreamer]

Have you long-reined him on the routes you ride on? I have one now who lacks confidence and leading first, then long-reining him on a route I want to ride is a great help. Also making sure the basic aids as well as voice commands are established in a familiar place before venturing out. And lots of praise and reward for any hints of cooperation as well as giving time to become familiar with anything they find suspicious. It does take time though, more like weeks than days. You have got so far by yourself already, I would be inclined to use your instructor more, perhaps getting her to be with you to long rein and ride out at first.

I long reined him round the short route I tend to use twice with someone at his head and he was good. Then I tried him by myself but he was really nappy, tried to turn which I stopped, went to his head and led him a bit, then did another bit of long reining in a field and callled it a day for that trip. I haven't done much long-reining since then as the ground has been so hard, I've been busy and he gets really fed up if you keep doing the same things with him. Maybe I should do more long reining around the tracks with my instructor.

 

[TPO]

I would speak to your instructor and find out if they think the current behaviour out hacking could be a quick fix.

When the new saddle arrived was it fitted to him? If it was m2m fro. A template there's a good xhance he's changed shape. When did the saddle arrive as he had probably changed shape with summer grass too. It's normal for thr new saddle to be fitted then an appointment 6-12wks later for a check up depending on how much work the horse is doing.

When we're his teeth last checked? Could have a little something going on there too at 4.

Personally if the hacking can be resolved with your instructor I'd look to finish on a high note beore you turn away.

Then if its affordable I'd send him to someone like Jason Webb or Joe Midgley in the spring and go there for lessons too. Meanwhile I'd also start looking for a yard with facilities and good company. It's perfectly doable to produce a horse from a field but easier to have facilities on site or transport/time to box out places to use facilities. Especially as next year tou might want to keep ticking over during the autumn and winter

 

[JackFrost]

I suspect you are just doing too much with him all at once, which makes it hard to spot where the issues are, as well as overloading him. The behaviour sounds like anxiety. I would forget about riding out, only sit on him in his safe places in a school or yard with your instructor, doing very short sessions, maybe minutes. Long reining out twice is nowhere near enough. Try lots of walking out in hand which may work better to give him confidence. If he gets bored quickly, try new horse agility games.
Just slow down, and stop expecting so much of yourself and him and let him progress is his own time.

 

[daydreamer]

I would speak to your instructor and find out if they think the current behaviour out hacking could be a quick fix.

When the new saddle arrived was it fitted to him? If it was m2m fro. A template there's a good xhance he's changed shape. When did the saddle arrive as he had probably changed shape with summer grass too. It's normal for thr new saddle to be fitted then an appointment 6-12wks later for a check up depending on how much work the horse is doing.

When we're his teeth last checked? Could have a little something going on there too at 4.

Personally if the hacking can be resolved with your instructor I'd look to finish on a high note beore you turn away.

Then if its affordable I'd send him to someone like Jason Webb or Joe Midgley in the spring and go there for lessons too. Meanwhile I'd also start looking for a yard with facilities and good company. It's perfectly doable to produce a horse from a field but easier to have facilities on site or transport/time to box out places to use facilities. Especially as next year tou might want to keep ticking over during the autumn and winter

Yes my instructor is coming on Wednesday morning for a chat.

It is a wow saddle as I wanted it to be easy to adjust when he changes shape. The saddler did come and fit it and spent quite a while checking it, including with me riding. The plan was to catch up and recheck in 6 - 8 weeks.

Teeth due this Wednesday and osteopath tomorrow, just for his maintenance checks (I'm trying to do the best for him!)

I like the sound of the rest of your plan. In theory the yard I am at has really good facilities - 24/7 turnout (about the only one around here), a gallops, loads of hacking and a school but the school is a 15 min walk away and there isn't a community as such so hacking company is tricky.

 

[daydreamer]

I suspect you are just doing too much with him all at once, which makes it hard to spot where the issues are, as well as overloading him. The behaviour sounds like anxiety. I would forget about riding out, only sit on him in his safe places in a school or yard with your instructor, doing very short sessions, maybe minutes. Long reining out twice is nowhere near enough. Try lots of walking out in hand which may work better to give him confidence. If he gets bored quickly, try new horse agility games.
Just slow down, and stop expecting so much of yourself and him and let him progress is his own time.

Yes I think it is anxiety too. I have done quite a bit of walking out in hand with him but maybe I just need to do lots more of that. I guess it is just that he did seem to be getting on so well but thinking about it then the ground was really hard and I was waiting for the saddle and busy at work and so didn't do much with him. I guess I put pressure on myself to "get on with it" now he is 4 and because I have the summer off but won't be able to do much in the autumn and winter.

 

[irishdraft]

When I start I establish basics in the school before I go out. Then I would hack out with company until happy, then I would go out solo. It sounds a little erractic ( no offense intended) plan your program & stick to it as far as possible.

 

[TPO]

Yes my instructor is coming on Wednesday morning for a chat.

It is a wow saddle as I wanted it to be easy to adjust when he changes shape. The saddler did come and fit it and spent quite a while checking it, including with me riding. The plan was to catch up and recheck in 6 - 8 weeks.

Teeth due this Wednesday and osteopath tomorrow, just for his maintenance checks (I'm trying to do the best for him!)

I like the sound of the rest of your plan. In theory the yard I am at has really good facilities - 24/7 turnout (about the only one around here), a gallops, loads of hacking and a school but the school is a 15 min walk away and there isn't a community as such so hacking company is tricky.

Sounds like you are covering all bases and are on top of everything.

Best bet is speaking to instructor who knows you and the horse. They'll be best placed to advise.

Ah right sorry, I assumed you only had a field. 24/7 turnout is great and even better that there's a school (with lights?) and gallops.

Yeah it's a bit rubbish when no one else on the yard wants to do anything. Maybe once they see you doing your thing it'll motivate others to want to join in

 

[daydreamer]

Sounds like you are covering all bases and are on top of everything.

Best bet is speaking to instructor who knows you and the horse. They'll be best placed to advise.

Ah right sorry, I assumed you only had a field. 24/7 turnout is great and even better that there's a school (with lights?) and gallops.

Yeah it's a bit rubbish when no one else on the yard wants to do anything. Maybe once they see you doing your thing it'll motivate others to want to join in

It’s a bit of a weird set up. No stables, no lights on the school and about half of the horses are retired. It is grass full livery so not everyone goes every day and everyone tends to come at different times and because there is no yard or stables as such we don’t really know each other.

 

[Lois Lame]

I have a 4yo gelding who I have had since he was 6 months old. He is my first youngster. He is very good to lead, hindquarters away, back, sideways in hand etc. He can circle on a lunge line in walk and trot (I've just enough to establish the aids) and I've long-lined him in the field. He has been pretty easy so far (but I'm beginning to wonder if when he has said no I've backed off too much and let him get away with saying "I don't want to").

What has he objected to?

I progressed to sitting on bareback, then did a couple of short walk sessions in a dodgy saddle and then his new saddle came about a week ago.

I did a 10 min walk out following another horse, on a route he knows, but got a friend to hold the lead rope. He rushed a bit but relaxed near the end. A couple of days later I tried walking him 3/4 of the way around in hand then popping on as I have seen people say this has worked well. He started ok but then got anxious and planted a lot (I probably over-faced him )

Yes, I think he was probably over-faced. He needed the company of others, and so did you.

I got off, led him to about 30m from his field, popped on again and we walked to the field ok. A couple of days later I walked him in hand to the last 30m, popped on, had a bit of stopping, some drifting, some jogging then a walk and got off. Today the same nanny horse came and we planned to do the same route, the first 1/3 was great, he was walking and seemed relaxed and then we turned a corner and he got more and more anxious and was jogging, tried to bite the horse in front, tried to bite my friend who was on foot. We stopped and let him chill out then carried on. He was better but still tense and jig-joggy, we stopped after some nice walk though and i got off, just slightly before home.

He needs his rider to be much more confident. As to how we act confident when we are not -- I am still looking for the formula.

Do you know of someone who is the right fit locally who can assist?

 

[Widgeon]

Your setup doesn't necessarily sound ideal and you sound a bit worried about the situation - can you afford to send him away to someone for a while? Even if you are well capable of sorting this out yourself it might make your life easier and less stressful to know you've delegated the basics to a professional (if you've got the money of course). It's the thing about relying on other liveries for hacking company that would bother me - having to rely on other people is stressful (IMO) and makes it difficult to plan. But whatever you decide, hope you can have a useful chat with your instructor and come up with a plan you're both happy with, good luck

 

[daydreamer]

What has he objected to?



Yes, I think he was probably over-faced. He needed the company of others, and so did you.



He needs his rider to be much more confident. As to how we act confident when we are not -- I am still looking for the formula.

Do you know of someone who is the right fit locally who can assist?

The objections have been very mild and more like when he didn't want to do something on a particular day so I guess I tend to err on the side of caution and chalk it down to a "I don't know" rather than a "I don't want to" and go back a little step. It has just been rushing or falling in, nothing nasty or dramatic.

Yes, I wish I could be more confident but as you suggest it is tricky, even if I think I feel fine and confident sometimes when I check the tracking on my smart watch my heart rate was pretty high. I think I'm starting to lean towards sending him away next spring, no shame in admitting I'm not good enough I guess!

 

[eahotson]

The objections have been very mild and more like when he didn't want to do something on a particular day so I guess I tend to err on the side of caution and chalk it down to a "I don't know" rather than a "I don't want to" and go back a little step. It has just been rushing or falling in, nothing nasty or dramatic.

Yes, I wish I could be more confident but as you suggest it is tricky, even if I think I feel fine and confident sometimes when I check the tracking on my smart watch my heart rate was pretty high. I think I'm starting to lean towards sending him away next spring, no shame in admitting I'm not good enough I guess!

Its not a question of not being good enough its more the wisedom of knowing your own abilities/knowledge and taking appropriate action.Wish more people were like you.

 

[Cortez]

Get a professional trainer on him. Immediately.

 

[Hallo2012]

a pro at this stage will be worth so much in the future.

he isnt doing anything wrong and neither are you but when he falters or stops he needs someone who will just give him a push and a pat and give him full of confidence vibes, if you second guess so so they.

 

[southerncomfort]

He sounds very anxious. I'd be thinking about going back to basics for a bit. It may just be that you've moved a bit quickly for him. Some just take a bit longer than others. Mine wasn't ready for backing properly until he was 5. He was sat on and walked a handful of times at 4 and then turned away.

Great that you've got an instructor coming, especially if she has a lot of experience with starting young horses.

The only other thing i can think of is that WOW saddles can be very heavy. Obviously it's just a stab in the dark but could he be struggling to find his balance with a heavy saddle and a rider?

 

[Esmae]

There are no prizes for struggling. You have done well up to now, however I feel from what you say that you would both benefit from sending him to a professional now. When he going well then see if the professional will give you a few lessons on him there so that you can both get it together in a controlled fashion and both have confidence in each other. Then go from there. Well done with what you've done so far,

 

[daydreamer]

He sounds very anxious. I'd be thinking about going back to basics for a bit. It may just be that you've moved a bit quickly for him. Some just take a bit longer than others. Mine wasn't ready for backing properly until he was 5. He was sat on and walked a handful of times at 4 and then turned away.

Great that you've got an instructor coming, especially if she has a lot of experience with starting young horses.

The only other thing i can think of is that WOW saddles can be very heavy. Obviously it's just a stab in the dark but could he be struggling to find his balance with a heavy saddle and a rider?

I think because he is generally a willing and calm boy I sometimes forget myself and rush things. I will go back to the basics like you say and check all those and reinforce them.

I was worried about the saddle being heavy but actually it isn't really noticeably heavy, maybe because it is a new one and they are lighter than older designs??

 

[Cortez]

I think because he is generally a willing and calm boy I sometimes forget myself and rush things. I will go back to the basics like you say and check all those and reinforce them.

I was worried about the saddle being heavy but actually it isn't really noticeably heavy, maybe because it is a new one and they are lighter than older designs??

So you wouldn't consider getting a professional to get him going properly for you then?

 

[daydreamer]

So you wouldn't consider getting a professional to get him going properly for you then?

If you read my earlier posts I have said I am leaning towards sending him away. Whilst I would like to "immediately" get a pro on him I don't think that is feasible due to logistical issues and will likely be early next year after the Autumn and winter off.

To me going back to basics means doing more leading in hand, revisiting long-reining and then checking mounting and dismounting and maybe walking off - under supervision, until he is happy with all of that and then calling it a day for now.

I have tried to take on board what people have said, and have tried to be open to admitting my own capabilities, or lack thereof. I read the forum a lot and know that you are very experienced and knowledgable and quite black and white but if I was a new time poster I have to say it would be quite hard not to be offended by your posts!

 

[honetpot]

I have done a lot with children's ponies, where there is really no opportunity for me to ride, just too heavy, so everything has to be done slowly and be idiot proof. My advice is,have a routine, get one thing established before you go on to the next step, 20mins a go at the most. When you start hacking even with bigger ones, I have an older animal that takes the lead, that the novice can take confidence from, we have an old pony who is often the leader, they are also the brake, so you have to choose something that doesn't mind something running up behind.
If you decide to send him away be very specific about what you want done, a lot will do stuff in the school, because it's just quicker than taking something out on a hack. The last one I sent away I sent to a dealers yard that sells all rounders, and said I wanted him hacked out and in traffic, and forget the circles, which they did. If he is a bit backward you want somewhere where they will develop confidence, and literally see a problem look at it, and then walk on. I also go back two steps because who ever ride them will have different expectations, sometimes they come back more off the leg, and I would still recommend an equine nanny for hacking out.
Leading out is never the same as being ridden, when what ever confidence you may have given them inhand is now a wobbly weight on their back, which they have to react to and compensate for. A human sees and reacts differently, the equine nanny is a bit like Nessa from Gavin and Stacey, seen it, done it and just by body language say's its OK, what's the fuss, so that instinct to react is dulled.

 

[millitiger]

I think if you can't send him to a professional until next spring, I would just turn him out until then.
Stop all the leading out in hand and long reining for now as there is no benefit really and just let the pro restart him fresh next year.

So far he hasn't really had any bad experiences or trauma so I would leave it there until you are ready to send him to a pro.

 

[Cortez]

If you read my earlier posts I have said I am leaning towards sending him away. Whilst I would like to "immediately" get a pro on him I don't think that is feasible due to logistical issues and will likely be early next year after the Autumn and winter off.

To me going back to basics means doing more leading in hand, revisiting long-reining and then checking mounting and dismounting and maybe walking off - under supervision, until he is happy with all of that and then calling it a day for now.

I have tried to take on board what people have said, and have tried to be open to admitting my own capabilities, or lack thereof. I read the forum a lot and know that you are very experienced and knowledgable and quite black and white but if I was a new time poster I have to say it would be quite hard not to be offended by your posts!

Some people are more easily offended than others, however you may note that I don't tell lies. Good luck with your horse, I hope you get some help from a knowledgable and capable trainer very soon.

 

[PeterNatt]

I would send him away now to a reputable trainer.

 

[daydreamer]

I would send him away now to a reputable trainer.

Great in theory except I would need to find a suitable one who also has availability now. Then he’d be away for a while (3/4 weeks or longer?) so he’d come back when I am back in my full time job, at the busiest time of my year, with the days getting shorter, no school with lights and reliant on the few other liveries being able to ride at the same time as me. If only I didn’t work!!

 

[daydreamer]

UPDATE:

I couldn't figure out how to edit the title but if anyone is interested in an update ..... my instructor said she thought it would be best to send him away this year if possible. Ideally this would have been still with enough time for me to do a few rides when he comes back and then turn him away for the winter. I feel really lucky that Jason Webb has managed to squeeze him in for October due to some cancellations etc and I'm really looking forward to seeing how Duncan gets on.This is probably the best outcome I could have imagined.

 

[TPO]

Perfect timing with Jason. Would love to hear how you both get on.

 

[Leandy]

From what you have said, you have missed a step. Have you ever actually taught him what the aids mean ie rein aids to stop, slow down, turn and leg aids to go forward? I don't see that, pretty major, step in your OP. Personally I would establish these on the lunge initially ie lunge with a rider and gradually get the rider taking over the control from the lunger, and then follow that up in an arena or other confined space. Taking him out in the open, even with a nanny horse should only happen when he understands the aids a bit ie he knows roughly what you want him to do. You also need to be confident that you have half a chance of his obeying what you tell him ie the basic stop, go, turn. It sounds as though you are riding him purely as a passenger without any means of control and are getting nervous because you are not in any form of control of what he is doing. So I'd get someone to help you with the establishing the basic aids steps.