Advice box mis-sold?

[sarahmac77]

Hi everyone, I would appreciate your advice.
I’m feeling very disappointed as I bought a 3.5 ton horsebox from someone in Cheltenham. I had it checked by mechanic up there (I wasn’t present) to make sure it was roadworthy and there was nothing wrong with it generally. He wasn’t a horsebox specialist so he said to me he wasn’t able to give any specialist information but aside from some general bits of work, that it was sound.
On the way home the exhaust fell off!
I took it to the garage when I got home and fully expected to pay for some work to be done. The garage have told me that the box is rotten and needs extensive welding.
It was MOT in December and had two advisories which both been done.
I got back in touch with the seller who is frankly being quite awful and has washed her hands of it.
Where do I stand? It’s all the money I had, and I just wanted to invest in a little box to get out.
I feel quite stupid somehow but I also feel like I tried to do as much as I could to make sure it was worth buying.
Do I have any legal recourse?
The garage hasn’t even begun to look at the stuff I know is an issue, like some of the electrics need rewiring and the drivers lock doesn’t work.
I feel so sad about this!

 

[Red-1]

Hi, was it a private seller? If so, was it properly advertised? If they lied, then you can go to small claims. If it is just in bad condition, then I would be to speak with the mechanic to try to get recourse from them. You would need a further report to show that they didn't do a professional job.

 

[sarahmac77]

Hi, was it a private seller? If so, was it properly advertised? If they lied, then you can go to small claims. If it is just in bad condition, then I would be to speak with the mechanic to try to get recourse from them. You would need a further report to show that they didn't do a professional job.

Yes a private seller... she seems to think it’s fine and has been using it until now. She’s also only had it 18 months...

 

[meleeka]

My mechanic OH isn’t a horsebox specialist either but he’d have noticed an exhaust hanging off and locks not working! I think i’d be looking at putting the blame on him, rather than the seller who possibly didn’t know about the state of the underneath.

 

[sarahmac77]

Well he said the exhaust needed work and pointed out it was tied up! To be fair to him. I was willing to replace it - I was expecting that work to have to be done and had budgeted for it.
It’s more the huge amount of welding and damage the body of the box has. Surely it shouldn’t have passed an MOT in Dec? (It’s not rotted and corroded since then).

 

[meleeka]

Well he said the exhaust needed work and pointed out it was tied up! To be fair to him. I was willing to replace it - I was expecting that work to have to be done and had budgeted for it.
It’s more the huge amount of welding and damage the body of the box has. Surely it shouldn’t have passed an MOT in Dec? (It’s not rotted and corroded since then).

They don’t MOT the floor. There’s no difference to any other vehicle when it comes to MOT’s which is why so many horses go through floors. As long as the chassis is sound and there’s no sharp edges, it passes.

eta - It may be worth shopping around for welding work. Garages are usually much dearer than a welding company/person.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

Just to look at all sides, could the seller have had the box parked in an area that didn’t allow the mechanic to see the underneath very well (he still doesn’t sound as though he’s been thorough at all though).

Perhaps he’s just given the engine a quick once over and he has told you about the exhaust being tied on.

I would be looking at the advert and if it is misleading, I would be going after the seller. Perhaps have a chat to a solicitor.

 

[Lipglosspukka]

Did the mechanic even bother to look?! Surely he would have noticed if it was as hanging as they are saying it is.

 

[sarahmac77]

Just to look at all sides, could the seller have had the box parked in an area that didn’t allow the mechanic to see the underneath very well (he still doesn’t sound as though he’s been thorough at all though).

Perhaps he’s just given the engine a quick once over and he has told you about the exhaust being tied on.

I would be looking at the advert and if it is misleading, I would be going after the seller. Perhaps have a chat to a solicitor.

Thank you.
the underside had been sealed (which was a requirement of the MOT) so was hard to say.
but the engine is ok. As I mentioned it’s the structure of the box itself that’s the issue.
I honestly don’t understand how the hell it passed an MOT.
I DESPAIR.
Yes will speak to a solicitor I think.
Bloody hell. ??‍

 

[AmyMay]

I really do think that this is the perils of buying any second hand vehicle from a private seller.

I recently bought a second hand car that on paper was immaculate. Low mileage, service history long MOT with no worrying advisories over the years, and fab condition. It’s now in the garage having various pieces of work done that’s going to cost quite a bit of money. Not the sellers fault. But it’s absolutely going to hurt my wallet.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

Also OP, did you inspect the box yourself or buy it unseen with just the mechanic to check it over? Did you get a receipt? Does it say sold as seen?

 

[sarahmac77]

Also OP, did you inspect the box yourself or buy it unseen with just the mechanic to check it over? Did you get a receipt? Does it say sold as seen?

I looked over it but of course can’t see under the wooden floor. I also don’t know what I’m looking for per se. It’s my first box.
No receipt. Just paperwork and the company who fixed the box up before she bought it. Ahem.
I honestly feel pretty distraught but hopefully it’s repairable.

 

[webble]

Thank you.
the underside had been sealed (which was a requirement of the MOT) so was hard to say.
but the engine is ok. As I mentioned it’s the structure of the box itself that’s the issue.
I honestly don’t understand how the hell it passed an MOT.
I DESPAIR.
Yes will speak to a solicitor I think.
Bloody hell. ??‍

The MOT checks for road worthiness/ safety not horse safety

 

[maya2008]

You needed to get a specialist to look at it - mechanic only checks chassis and vehicle bits not the box. Get some quotes for the work and see how much it will cost.

My box passed its MOT with only a tiny bit of welding last autumn. Then just after lockdown the floor needed redoing, bulkhead and ramp needed replacing and skylight seals also. £2k total. We have had it for a while, wear and tear. If someone had checked it over a few months ago they wouldn’t have seen the problems unless they had peeled back the rubber on the floor and pulled out the boarding to check the bulkhead. The ramp only showed signs of problems a month ago!

 

[Goldenstar]

Before you put a horse in it get the mats up and the floor properly checked .
it’s the perils of old boxes I am afraid .

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I think sadly it’s going to be a tricky one to prove fault on unless the seller claimed in the advert to have had the floor/chassis checked prior to sale and even then I’d have still wanted to get a specialist in to double check their claims. Unfortunately as Goldenstar says, it’s the perils of buying old boxes.

 

[Michen]

Part of the perils of buying second hand. Mot sure what you expect seller to do. You had it checked, it passed, it had a Recent ish MOT.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It's totally possible that the seller didn't know and wasn't being deceptive. The box passed a MOT, she was using it (how long she owned it is irrelevant, people sell boxes for a variety of reasons), and many "average" people just don't take notice of this stuff.

I, for one, feel that the floor should be a part of the MOT. For trailers, boxes, and anything that carries a load (live or not). Friends trailer passed the MOT last summer, I went to use it a few months ago and good thing I poked around, the floor was rotten and not fit for a horse. She since had it repaired.

I think there is little to no recourse, a Mechanic checked it out (what did you tell him to check for? And if he's a regular car Mechanic, he possibly wasn't focused on the floor/metal work), you looked at it, and it is second hand - so not new. Part of the perils of buying second hand.

I deal with classic cars from time to time, and bought a classic 2 years ago that passed MOT but the rust was out of control, I had to scrap it. I have exactly 0 faith in MOT's.

 

[MissTyc]

Your seller allowed a pre-purchase inspection, so I am not surprised she is now not engaging. I have sold two older horseboxes (one 1986 and one 2001, last year) and I actively encouraged pre-purchase inspections as once it's off my driveway, I don't want to hear about it ever again. I was very open with my buyers about this. They are older vehicles, I am not an expert, they needed to do their own due diligence before committing to buying it. The first I never heard from again. The second had an extensive check and used some minor points to negotiate with me. I ran into her a few months later and she told me a huge "bit" fell off while going up a hill a few months after she bought it, and it needed a lot of follow-up welding. I expressed my sympathies with a "ahh, old vehicle, eh" but refused to engage any further into that conversation. She also bought it the day before the first lockdown, so it had been sitting doing nothing for quite a long time after she got it home.

You do have my sympathies, because this is my fear both as a seller and a buyer of course. I had all sorts of mechanical panics with my new horsebox, leading to a loss of confidence in the vehicle, and it's horrible. But definitely shop around for the welding. I had loads of welding done on my two old ones and if the mechanic said £1500, I could normally find someone to do it for about half that, usually at caravan or van maintenance places. Good luck with it -- it might still turn out to be the box for you even with such a disappointing start x

 

[MissTyc]

As for passing the MOT, I don't put much faith in that either.
My old one had an advisory on front brakes. I forgot to have it done, but apparently the mechanic must have forgotten we didn't do it either as the next MOT did not have such an advisory. In fact the brakes were one of the point of negotiation with the buyer as the mechanic took one look and raised an eyebrow at me. I was using the box at time and it "felt" fine but lesson learned. As I told my buyer, as a seller I wouldn't want a known fault like that on my conscience so I happily took the cost off the purchase price.

 

[milliepops]

oh on my old box, non-urgent niggly jobs would pop on and off the advisories depending on who did the MOT. Doing such limited mileage some things never progress beyond being an advisory. And some places are more lenient than others! The important and safety related things got done, and then when it was sold, very similar to MissTyc we were open with the buyers, it's an old truck that's had the work done but you expect to do a bit of maintenance now and then so I didn't expect to hear back from them. coincidentally the exhaust fell off mine recently (we hard replaced so just one of those things).

Def shop around for welding. I'm lucky that OH does mine but there's a huge range in prices. Have you got a tame garage who can look after horseboxes without being rip off merchants? I asked around and found one that looked after mine well, they always wanted to put the most expensive oil in it (bonkers on a 20 year old vehicle) but the other work wasn't silly prices so i used to let that slide

 

[Northern Hare]

Really sorry to hear about the problems with your horsebox! I was in a similar situation - but I bought my 3.5t box "new" although on a used chassis - this was in the early 2000's when they became really popular. I had the chassis inspected as a pre-purchase inspection, but when I went to collect the box I thought the registration looked different - sure enough it was - they'd swapped to another chassis after my pre-purchase inspection. As I was booked with it on the ferry across to Belfast the next day I drove it away, but I did have some significant teething problems, none of which I could easily return it to the box builder for!

Like other comments above, it's a very grey area buying second hand - even through I bought mine from a business. In the end as I wanted to get on and use it, I found a good mechanical welder and engineer and we got everything sorted out. It didn't actually cost very much in the end and I ended up with a really super horsebox and had lots of safe use out of it. It was either that or go through small claims court which would have taken time and money plus of course we were the other side of the Irish Sea by that point!

Good luck - I hope you find a resolution, but my advice would be to get a few quotes from welders etc to see what the costs will be to get it safely back on the road - you might be pleasantly surprised, which might end up your preferred option - at least you could then get on and use it when its ready. ?

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I looked over it but of course can’t see under the wooden floor. I also don’t know what I’m looking for per se. It’s my first box.
No receipt. Just paperwork and the company who fixed the box up before she bought it. Ahem.
I honestly feel pretty distraught but hopefully it’s repairable.

Yes totally understand and agree it is the perils of buying an older box. The reason I asked about the receipt is if you have a receipt with “sold as seen” that you’ve both signed, I believe you would have less of a legal case (if indeed the advert is misleading).

Don’t give up hope OP, sometimes the enormity of something like this can be overwhelming, get the box into someone who knows what they are doing. You may have to take it on the chin as the seller may well not have realised how bad condition it was in (some people will travel horses in anything, I’ve seen it myself).

If it’s an older box with a wooden floor, personally I would always air on the side of caution and get it replaced, if there is no paperwork confirming when it was done and who by.

 

[sarahmac77]

oh on my old box, non-urgent niggly jobs would pop on and off the advisories depending on who did the MOT. Doing such limited mileage some things never progress beyond being an advisory. And some places are more lenient than others! The important and safety related things got done, and then when it was sold, very similar to MissTyc we were open with the buyers, it's an old truck that's had the work done but you expect to do a bit of maintenance now and then so I didn't expect to hear back from them. coincidentally the exhaust fell off mine recently (we hard replaced so just one of those things).

Def shop around for welding. I'm lucky that OH does mine but there's a huge range in prices. Have you got a tame garage who can look after horseboxes without being rip off merchants? I asked around and found one that looked after mine well, they always wanted to put the most expensive oil in it (bonkers on a 20 year old vehicle) but the other work wasn't silly prices so i used to let that slide

Hugely helpful. Thank you. Can I ask, if I take it elsewhere for the welding work, what type of place am I looking for?

 

[sarahmac77]

Thank you everyone. This forum is truly a huge help. If anything to stop me feeling completely sick to my stomach that I threw ££££s in the bin.
thank you.
The place I’m having it done seems good though maybe a bit pricey.
mill look about for welders - any tips appreciated on that. Thanks again xx

 

[Ownedby4horses]

OP, can you give an idea of what county you are in, people might be able to recommend someone decent that they’ve used.

 

[ester]

I will agree that different pro people have different views on old horseboxes.

I bought one with a very recent MOT
Took it to my local for checking/some work to be done and they were pretty about it, as were slightly more specialist but used to doing old vehicles garage.
Spoke to a very helpful horsebox checking guy who had seen it for someone else who said he thought it was bad and he didn't know how it had an MOT.
MOTing garage told seller it was fine.

My only recourse given the recent MOT was to tell the MOTing garage that it would go for a VOSA check. They obviously didn't have too much faith in their staff as they then paid for £1400 worth of work on a 3k box (mostly a lot of welding).

I think your MOT would be too old to be able to do similar but it definitely highlighted the differences in opinion on these things!

 

[milliepops]

OP, can you give an idea of what county you are in, people might be able to recommend someone decent that they’ve used.

this -
also suggest posting on local horsey FB groups for recommendations (you'll probably find out the places to avoid that way too!)

 

[Leandy]

Oh dear. I don't think though that on the basis of what you have put in the post that it was missold as such unless you can prove your were deliberately lied to. I think you have more of an issue with the chap who inspected it for you. Having said that, it appears that it is the box which is unsound not the chassis and mechanics? Your mechanic told you he did not have the specialist knowledge to check that so you knowingly took that risk. So I suspect you will struggle to have any recourse against the mechanic either. He did point out the exhaust to you. Did you agree with him exactly what he would check eg did he have a checklist to go through or similar to report back on afterwards? I agree with others that there will be different views from different horsebox specialists on how much actually needs doing to it and how much you can live with or leave for another day. Costs of repair will also vary. So it is worth shopping around. Some of the defects you mention however, eg door lock not working etc are common with old lorries (they all have their foibles!) and, of course, you could have spotted that yourself but you didn't. Often they are just not worth the cost of fixing (or parts are not easily available so it is hassle) so no-one bothered. And yes, an MOT is no guarantee of even proper roadworthiness in any vehicle and certainly not that a horsebox is safe for a horse.

 

[Northern Hare]

Thank you everyone. This forum is truly a huge help. If anything to stop me feeling completely sick to my stomach that I threw ££££s in the bin.
thank you.
The place I’m having it done seems good though maybe a bit pricey.
mill look about for welders - any tips appreciated on that. Thanks again xx

Hi, I used a welder who did mechanical and agricultural welding. Definitely get more than one quote. If you can look for someone who takes a bit of a realistic and pragmatic view, it's easy for garages to stand back and criticize others work and over play the issues. At the end of the day you need to have a safe horsebox to put your horse into, and superficial things that don't affect its safe use and roadworthiness can maybe be held off for a later date, when funds allow.

Good luck! I appreciate that this is a big disappointment for you, but hopefully you'll find that the box can be put right quickly and for a more reasonable price than you're thinking just now ?