Advice for genuine seller

[torzay]

Hi all,
I'm feeling very apprehensive about posting this after reading the thread below about horse buying currently. Please be kind as I'm genuine and just in need of some advice.
I am wanting to sell my beloved horse. Very genuine reason for sale that is not horse related.
I have not put an advert up as I want to choose his next 5* home. I am also willing to take the time that is needed.
I have had 1 person view the horse after I responded to a wanted ad. I was brutally honest and the gentleman who came to look at the horse said that it was 'refreshing' to speak to me after his encounters with previous sellers.
The horse is 11yr old, range £8k, has never been lame, owned for 6 years, has immaculate manners and is sound on the flat and when worked (checked by vet).
We did 5 stage vetting and horse had a positive flexion on back leg. I paid for x rays - both back legs clear. vet commented 'clear xrays' and very clean legs. Physio checked back - no issues. Did flexion again and still positive, but second time around he was 'only very slightly' lame trotting off. NOT lame when working on flat, but his back legs do come under his body slightly on a circle.
Horse does have slight cow hocks and his way of moving has never changed in the years I have owned him (competed in dressage working towards medium with no concerns or issues).
I still want to find his next 5* home, home is the upmost importance for me. I will continue to be brutally honest and will declare vetting outcome to any potential purchaser. I will lower the price with the view that in the future there may / may not be an issue.

Advice please - should I continue to pay for investigation work to keep looking for the issue? If I don't, will I be able to find his new home for a reduced price (with vetting disclosed).
I've never sold a horse before so looking for experienced horse owner views.

 

[PSD]

I can’t help with the investigation side of things but I must say, you’re wanting a “forever home” which can’t be guaranteed once you sell. If that is the most important, why not consider loaning instead? Once he’s sold, it’s out of your hands what happens. Yes they are out there, but forever homes are never ever a guarantee.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

No-one can promise your horse 'a forever home' any more than you can.

As for flexion tests, they were originally intended to show that the horse hadn't been drugged, if the horse isn't quite sound as he trots away, the shows that he hasn't been given a painkiller just prior.

 

[torzay]

Thank you for both for the replies.
Have edited the original post to just 5* home as I appreciate that no one can guarantee a 'forever'home.
Just wanted to highlight the importance of a great home in original post.
Thanks again.

 

[stormox]

Once you sell a horse you lose control completely. You never know what misfortune might befall the buyer giving them no choice but sell.
As for flexion test a lot of people dont agree with them. They arent definitive. If you want to mention he has failed them do, otherwise let the buyers own vet make his own decision re soundness.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

As for flexion tests, they were originally intended to show that the horse hadn't been drugged, if the horse isn't quite sound as he trots away, the shows that he hasn't been given a painkiller just prior.

I have never heard of that in my entire life about flexion tests! In that case why bother to take blood tests at a vetting if it is that simple to detect a doped horse?
I have always believed that they are done by a vet to help assess any degree of lameness and in which part of the leg etc. Well my vets have always told me that is why they do them. But even that is now a cause of much debate about exactly how useful a flexion test is and also the concern over flexion tests being carried out incorrectly can in fact cause lameness.

 

[Spottyappy]

We had a horse lamed badly by a vetting Flexion test done incorrectly.
As a result, I would never let any vet do one on any horse I may sell in the future. The vet denied any wrongdoing,but the horse was perfectly sound prior to this.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I have never heard of that in my entire life about flexion tests! In that case why bother to take blood tests at a vetting if it is that simple to detect a doped horse?
I have always believed that they are done by a vet to help assess any degree of lameness and in which part of the leg etc. Well my vets have always told me that is why they do them. But even that is now a cause of much debate about exactly how useful a flexion test is and also the concern over flexion tests being carried out incorrectly can in fact cause lameness.

Well haven't you led a sheltered life!

Things have moved on since flexion tests were first used but that is *why* they were first used. As you say there is a question mark over their usefulness for many reasons.

 

[PSD]

No-one can promise your horse 'a forever home' any more than you can.

As for flexion tests, they were originally intended to show that the horse hadn't been drugged, if the horse isn't quite sound as he trots away, the shows that he hasn't been given a painkiller just prior.

never heard this but it makes sense!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Well haven't you led a sheltered life!

Well quite! Obviously I have not been hanging around in the right horsey set for the past 7 decades if I never heard that one before!

 

[MagicMelon]

I would ignore the vetting and carry on, honestly every vet is different. A potential purchaser had one of my horses vetted years ago, that vet failed my horse with a 1 and 2 out of 10 lameness on the hinds (horse had full competition record so purchaser could see he'd never been off lame!). Purchaser pulled out because of it! I was so mortified I got my own vet out that same day - he passed him on flexion tests and everything else. So I wouldnt disclose it, I am totally with you on being honest (Im the same, would rather be brutally honest so I find the right home) but he may well pass with another vet. I take flexions with a pinch of salt these days as a result.

 

[stormox]

As for flexion tests, they were originally intended to show that the horse hadn't been drugged, if the horse isn't quite sound as he trots away, the shows that he hasn't been given a painkiller just prior.

Thats rubbish. They were used to find out if a horse had arthritis in the hock usually. With your reasoning if a horse trots away sound you wouldnt know if it was sound or had had painkillers!!

 

[ycbm]

We had a horse lamed badly by a vetting Flexion test done incorrectly.
As a result, I would never let any vet do one on any horse I may sell in the future. The vet denied any wrongdoing,but the horse was perfectly sound prior to this.

They are pretty well designed to break what can easily be broken, unfortunately for a seller. I wouldn't buy a horse whose owner refused them. I do them routinely on my own horses, have done for decades, and I have yet to lame one which doesn't have something wrong with it.

.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hard one I think if I where you with a much loved horse I would get the suspensory Attachments to the hock blocked and if that brings the horse sound on flexion I would have the ligaments scanned .

 

[Goldenstar]

We use flexions as normal assessment tool as well
And I have never seen a horse showing lameness to flexion on one leg that did not have something wrong with it .

 

[YorksG]

Thats rubbish. They were used to find out if a horse had arthritis in the hock usually. With your reasoning if a horse trots away sound you wouldnt know if it was sound or had had painkillers!!

Not according to a now retired, local, very well respected horse vet.

 

[Kahlua]

You will still be able to find a good home for your horse, trotting off from the flexion tests from both legs is not the end of the world, especially if you had all those extra checks done and he was fine. Did he come out of the funny trotting? For example was it just the first few steps and then fine? For an 11 year old it’s really not something I would be worried about, unless the horse was head bobbing lame trotting away and back. If the buyer isn’t comfortable then they won’t buy, and that’s totally up to them.

I really like this article from a vet on flexion tests https://www.doctorramey.com/flex-test/

 

[ihatework]

My advice would be to get him advertised, filter out appropriate homes and be prepared to talk through his clinical history. Expect a few to get scared off (it’s a natural response for most buyers) and then hopefully hold out for someone experienced and pragmatic. If he is a solid, sound genuine horse with a record at medium then he should sell

 

[Goldenstar]

The thing about failed hock flexions they may be nothing and you may get five years of perfect soundness but this horse is the age where horses often start with serious soft tissue issues .
The capitals PSD should strike horror into the heart of every buyer.

 

[meleeka]

Hard one I think if I where you with a much loved horse I would get the suspensory Attachments to the hock blocked and if that brings the horse sound on flexion I would have the ligaments scanned .

This for me. If you are planning on reducing the price based on previous flextion tests, I think I’d rather spend the difference on investigations and keep to the original asking price if all is clear. If I was paying that much for a horse I wouldn’t buy one with the uncertainty that there might be something wrong. Having had full investigations would make me more likely to buy but I certainly wouldn’t want one with questions marks over soundness.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I hate flexion tests and so a mild lameness coming off of one wouldn't necessarily bother me if he were sound in every other way.

 

[Winters100]

You are doing the right thing being 100% honest with buyers - this goes a long way towards them ending up in the right home with the right level of work.

Personally I would not do more investigations, because how concerned a buyer is will depend upon what they want the horse for.

Good luck with finding a great home, and well done for making the right home a priority.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well quite! Obviously I have not been hanging around in the right horsey set for the past 7 decades if I never heard that one before!

Obviously not, it was an old horse vet who told me that.

 

[Spottyappy]

They are pretty well designed to break what can easily be broken, unfortunately for a seller. I wouldn't buy a horse whose owner refused them. I do them routinely on my own horses, have done for decades, and I have yet to lame one which doesn't have something wrong with it.

.

my OH is a farrier and is adamant they serve no useful purpose.
sadly, many aren’t done correctly, regardless of purpose.
We generally keep our horses for life, but this one was surplus,and sold with full disclosure on the vet issue after being turned away.

 

[Red-1]

If something was found and you didn't tell me, then as a buyer I would be furious.

For a minor head bob that dissipated quite quickly, it would not put me off her se, but not being able to insure would do. So, in some ways, if the horse is sound and nothing had been found, I would prefer you didn't tell me!

One of that age, with a vet failure, but riding perfectly sound, I would possibly still buy (with disclosure of previous vet history) but it would be 4K not 8K, due to not being able to insure.

 

[Auslander]

No-one can promise your horse 'a forever home' any more than you can.

As for flexion tests, they were originally intended to show that the horse hadn't been drugged, if the horse isn't quite sound as he trots away, the shows that he hasn't been given a painkiller just prior.

Can you explain this a bit more clearly please? I cant understand how a flexion test could be used to determine whether a horse has been drugged!

 

[Maryann]

A friend bought a ten year old pony club pony that had a good jump on him. The vet said he would be fine for up to 3ft jumping but not any bigger because the flexion tests weren't quite right. He was a great all round pony and only occasionally jumped over 3ft over the years. Last I heard he was still competing at age 26.

 

[be positive]

Can you explain this a bit more clearly please? I cant understand how a flexion test could be used to determine whether a horse has been drugged!

I also cannot see how it can differentiate between a sound horse which trots away fine, of which there are many, or a horse that is on bute to help hide discomfort.
I know the old vets used to check the feet for denerving by using a sharp instrument in the coronary band something not done nowadays, they also used to prod them with a sharp stick to test their wind but use more sophisticated methods now.

 

[oldie48]

I'm another who is a bit iffy about flexion tests as so many horses seem to fail them but have never shown any lameness and continue in work quite happily. Rose was sold subject to vetting as a just 9 yr old (for quite a lot of money) but failed a flexion test on rt hind. When i bought her subject to vetting nearly 3 years later she passed a flexion test, her hocks were clear on X rays and she's never taken a a lame step since I bought her in Nov 2018. I've known so many horses that failed a flexion test with one vet but passed with another that I'm just a bit sceptical and If I really liked the horse and it did the job I wanted well, it wouldn't necessarily put me off but tbh I would negotiate the price down.

 

[Michen]

I wouldn’t actually buy a horse now with failed flexions that didn’t have a diagnosis (e.g arthritis). There’s so much that can be hidden- my current horse is recovering from a ligament injury and had heat and slight swelling on leg. Sound on trot up but 4/10 lame after flexion. Scanned and he has tissue that has torn.

Makes me doubly wary now and I’d want to know why the horse failed for that kind of money (or more than a grand or two frankly!). If it was a bit of arthritis that wouldn’t necessarily put me off.

May be worth digging further.