Advice: Gelding aggresive towards foal

[MCP030405]

Hi Everybody, i'm new here and joined because I need some advice.

I Have a 26yo LOAN gelding cob and 10yo OWNED TB mare. They have lived on our land together, just them for 2 months. I got the loaner to keep the TB company after a move at the end of September, literally 2 months ago today.

We wanted to get some youngsters so recently purchased 2 a Shire x and a PRE, both 6 months old.

The Shire arrived last night (the other comes next weekend) and we stabled her next to the big ones overnight.

On advice from others that our herd isn't big enough to really risk anything and that they probably won't bother with her we turned her out with them this morning.

She's gone up so nicely, and the Gelding turned extremely aggressive. He saw her coming, pinned his ears, charged at her, bit her, kicked at her, and then chased her some more.

He chased her in a way i've only seen in one horse, and that horse is a nightmare and has now been paddocked alone.

He's clearly guarding my mare and luckily didn't break the skin with his old teeth and her thick coat.

Mare wanted to meet baby, kept trying to get around him and he'd run and stop her, then chase baby away trying to bite and kick. We ended up chasing them to catch, went in with some treats to distract, didn't give him any but managed to get a head collar on.

I pulled him out the field and stabled him but he's now stressing in the stable, Covered in sweat. He was trying to jump at the stable door so i've had to close the top. He's in there in such a state which is breaking my heart more.

He left the field fine once I'd caught him and walked out nicely. I've just gone to check on him (it's about 3 hours after the incident now) and he's soaking, he's being nice to me but I won't go in the stable as he's twice bulldozed me out the way to get my mare, last time he trampled over me, I luckily got away with just a busted foot and with him in this state I think he'd do it again. I threw him some more hay in over the door.

My friend who runs a training yard came down to give us a hand with baby if we needed it, witnessed all this and said she wouldn't turn them out together with that level of aggression, it was abnormal.

It was awful and I did not like it at all, it's made me question myself and what I know of horses.

He's charged out his stable twice in the two months. He's so good to ride but so rude on the ground and as he's 26 so I also feel like this behaivour is more than i was warned of and won't be taught away at this age.

I don't want to risk my weanlings getting hurt at all.

My mare is now out with baby, absolutely fine to be away from him.

Owner said this is not normal for him, (also said may he felt left out, but come on, he didn't even give the baby a chance, he saw it and charged.) She suggested paddocking him alone for a bit, but i'm scared he'll be able to take the fences down to get at them, because he want's to be with my mare. He's so strong for his size and age.

I was worried they'd be bonded as it was just them and a few sheep on the land but I hoped it wouldn't cause aggression towards a new one. I have to give a months notice if I was to send him back, but what would I do with him in the meantime? I can't risk him going for the baby, and the other one comes next weekend so if he settles and then starts again i'll be a mess. I really like this horse and wanted to keep him through retirement so i'm gutted he's acting like this.

My other half wants to send him back and is refusing to give it another go, but neither of us know 100% if the right thing is sending him back or letting them work it out. Her friend works at a rehab centre and seemed to think it was a fluke, but others say no, it was dangerous.

Am I overreacting? Should I let them get on with it or do I put it in place to send him home to his owner? The foal is 12.2 and he is 14.1.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Send him back. Not worth the risk imo.

 

[ihatework]

I wouldn’t have put them straight in together in the first place! But what is done is done.
I’d keep the mare in with baby. Have you got an adjoining paddock with proper secure fencing in that the gelding can go in alone.

 

[SEL]

Well I never introduce horses by just chucking them in together - always a fence line first so they can get all the squealing done.

Perhaps pop the baby in a neighbouring paddock and see if the gelding settles back with his mare. Then just watch how he is towards the baby over the next few days.

 

[MCP030405]

I wouldn’t have put them straight in together in the first place! But what is done is done.
I’d keep the mare in with baby. Have you got an adjoining paddock with proper secure fencing in that the gelding can go in alone.

That was my plan, I wanted to paddock baby next to them for a bit, but was overridden by others opinions. Fine, we had no real need to worry about it, until he set eyes on her and turned.
I'd rather treat them like cats, introduce slowly, but everybody around here seems to just chuck them in and let them get on with it.

I have a seperate pony paddock with post and rail but I think he'll break it down to get to mare. He is small (14.1) but so strong, it's insane how strong.
The only other paddock I have is in a position he can't see them and he'd be completely alone.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I'd send back too. My friends foal was attached by a gelding who went through 2 post and rail fences to get to her. (Jumped one, trashd the 2nd) The mare fought him off and foal was unharmed, but it was horrific. My friend moved her mare and foal immediately away from that yard. No way was she risking him getting access again and no fence is THAT secure.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Not wise just putting foals out with adult horses without some sort of introduction so you can see what the response is going to be.

Just ring the owner and say they need to collect him as soon as possible as he can't be turned out with your horses.

I would only put him in an adjoining field that he can't escape from.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

ETA usually a notice period is when people just change their mind. Does your loan agreement have a clause that says you can terminate immediately if....?

I would not wait a month unless you have VERY secure fencing. I would not try them together again.

 

[MCP030405]

Well I never introduce horses by just chucking them in together - always a fence line first so they can get all the squealing done.

Perhaps pop the baby in a neighbouring paddock and see if the gelding settles back with his mare. Then just watch how he is towards the baby over the next few days.

They were introduced over the door and did their squealing, I stabled the baby between the two last night and the stables have bars so they could all see each other. I didn't see any nastiness at any point then. If anything she wanted to be near him, was constantly looking at him and trying to smell him through the bars. It was cute.

Baby and mare are nice and settled, I don't know if it would be best to split them for him, he's not mine but they are and i'd rather keep them happy together if it's too dangerous to let him around baby

 

[ihatework]

That was my plan, I wanted to paddock baby next to them for a bit, but was overridden by others opinions. Fine, we had no real need to worry about it, until he set eyes on her and turned.
I'd rather treat them like cats, introduce slowly, but everybody around here seems to just chuck them in and let them get on with it.

I have a seperate pony paddock with post and rail but I think he'll break it down to get to mare. He is small (14.1) but so strong, it's insane how strong.
The only other paddock I have is in a position he can't see them and he'd be completely alone.

I’d probably avoid the hassle and send him back. But if you are going to try once more I’d add a second inner electric fence and hook it to the mains

 

[SEL]

I have a seperate pony paddock with post and rail but I think he'll break it down to get to mare. He is small (14.1) but so strong, it's insane how strong.
The only other paddock I have is in a position he can't see them and he'd be completely alone.

Do you think he'd go for the youngster if he was in with the mare and the youngster next door? Personally I'd tell the owners it isn't working out but you may have to give them notice so you'll need a temporary solution.

 

[meleeka]

I’d have done what you were originally going to do and put the foal in an adjacent field. Once the other comes it’ll have company and they can all get used to each other over the fence. Whether he eventually accepts the babies into his herd remains to be seen, but they do often get used to the idea once they’ve all gotten to know each other.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would ask the owner to accept him back ASAP. If you explain that you don't have a truly secure field that he can be in, they might be able accommodate him better than you can.
I wouldn't want the hassle of a bargain, bad-mannered horse on top of the other problem. Then after a proper introduction the mare and both foals can make a nice small herd

 

[MCP030405]

ETA usually a notice period is when people just change their mind. Does your loan agreement have a clause that says you can terminate immediately if....?

I would not wait a month unless you have VERY secure fencing. I would not try them together again.

It's just the standard BHS loan agreement? I've given it a read and can't see a clause for behaivour. Only that he's not fit for purpose or as described, and all it says is light hacking home.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Well he is not as described or fit for purpose! As in dangerously aggressive to your other horses.

He can go into that paddock out of sight for now, but if I was the owner I would not be happy with that anyway as an environment for my horse, and would take him back without notice.

It's no-one's fault but it is what it is and hopefully owner will understand that the risks are too high and it's not going to work out.

 

[MCP030405]

I’d probably avoid the hassle and send him back. But if you are going to try once more I’d add a second inner electric fence and hook it to the mains

I think i'll have to.
I'm gutted because the two of them were settled and the plan was always to add more, i've even told his owner about the foals and spoke about him being a "grandad" to them.

The change was appalling, it made me feel sick watching him.
Mare was nonplussed, he was violent, I was terrified for the baby.

There are electric fences, One is on, but non between where I could paddock him away from them.

When it was just the occasional bolstering out the stable and mowing me down, i could laugh it off. I could laugh off the bucking when he was ridden away from her, I can laugh off the rudeness with his headcollar, but I can't laugh off this combined with all of that, it's painted a picture I don't like

 

[MCP030405]

Well he is not as described or fit for purpose! As in dangerously aggressive to your other horses.

He can go into that paddock out of sight for now, but if I was the owner I would not be happy with that anyway as an environment for my horse, and would take him back without notice.

It's no-one's fault but it is what it is and hopefully owner will understand that the risks are too high and it's not going to work out.

I'd gladly offer to pay her for a month of livery at her yard, if she'd cut the notice short, I want to be so right about this because I had my heart set on him being with me till he passed.

 

[MCP030405]

I would ask the owner to accept him back ASAP. If you explain that you don't have a truly secure field that he can be in, they might be able accommodate him better than you can.
I wouldn't want the hassle of a bargain, bad-mannered horse on top of the other problem. Then after a proper introduction the mare and both foals can make a nice small herd

The owner has been asking me to use our paddocks as she knows it's just us on this land - I've said no because of various reasons So i know 100% she doesn't have space for him at her yard (she literally purchased a youngster a few weeks after I took him on which took his stable) which is why i think it'll be made difficult, which isn't fair on him.
I'm not nervous around horses but I think i'll be going back to something bad later, I think he will try to mow me down again to get out the door when it's time to muck him out, i'm apprehensive of it.

 

[MCP030405]

I’d have done what you were originally going to do and put the foal in an adjacent field. Once the other comes it’ll have company and they can all get used to each other over the fence. Whether he eventually accepts the babies into his herd remains to be seen, but they do often get used to the idea once they’ve all gotten to know each other.

hindsight is wonderful. I really felt that was the right thing but was overridden by SO and their horsey friends (I've had horses 2 years and them 9, so I do get over ridden a lot and told I don't know a lot). Nobody said to paddock her alone but me, i even pushed to keep her stabled for a few days.

My mare and the foal are very chilled together, it's really sweet to watch but with him in the stable in a state, i've been one cat photo away from sobbing all day.

None of us expected that reaction from him to be fair, it was terrifying, I was in shock for a few seconds when it begun, I didn't even register.

 

[MCP030405]

Do you think he'd go for the youngster if he was in with the mare and the youngster next door? Personally I'd tell the owners it isn't working out but you may have to give them notice so you'll need a temporary solution.

I don't think so to be fair, but my other half won't do that, they want the mare to be with the foal for the foals sake, and we own both. They don't want to upset the foal now by splitting them from Mare, and don't want Cob in with Mare again at all so he can learn to be separate from her.
We did think they'd be buddy sour as it's been just them for a few months, but never expected that reaction. I've only seen something so violent between horses once, my other half twice.

 

[meleeka]

I don't think so to be fair, but my other half won't do that, they want the mare to be with the foal for the foals sake, and we own both. They don't want to upset the foal now by splitting them from Mare, and don't want Cob in with Mare again at all so he can learn to be separate from her.
We did think they'd be buddy sour as it's been just them for a few months, but never expected that reaction. I've only seen something so violent between horses once, my other half twice.

Well if you definitely don’t want to put the gelding back with the mare, I think you have your answer. It’s not really fair on him either, to have him living alone.

 

[MCP030405]

Not wise just putting foals out with adult horses without some sort of introduction so you can see what the response is going to be.

Just ring the owner and say they need to collect him as soon as possible as he can't be turned out with your horses.

I would only put him in an adjoining field that he can't escape from.

We weren't overly worried, my mare was a broodmare before we got her and has been with foals with us, she's fantastic with youngsters, stern but kind.

We didn't expect the reaction from him as we were told he's good with horses, I spoke to owner before getting the babies and no concerns were raised - i specifically asked if there could be an issue for him - nothing.
I adore this horse, he was exactly what I wanted, but this baby was to be my project to replace him when he retires, so she has to be my priority.

Would it be crueler to keep him stabled or to put him in a paddock when he can't see them as they're the only secure one's i have. I will do whats best for him

 

[MCP030405]

Well if you definitely don’t want to put the gelding back with the mare, I think you have your answer. It’s not really fair on him either, to have him living alone.

I agree. It's shit all around.
I'll talk to his owner tonight and see what we can arrange.

 

[SantaVera]

Putting them together too soon. My new introductions are stabled overnight adjacent to each other for at least two weeks and kept in adjacent paddocks for at least that same amount of time, often longer is better before putting in same field and when they do go together its in a big as safe as possible field, I use our three acre piece for this they are walked to middle of field then alk turned loose at the same time with plenty of space between them. In the evening they got back to their own paddocks or stables for the night.

 

[MCP030405]

Putting them together too soon. My new introductions are stabled overnight adjacent to each other for at least two weeks and kept in adjacent paddocks for at least that same amount of time, often longer is better before putting in same field and when they do go together its in a big as safe as possible field, I use our three acre piece for this they are walked to middle of field then alk turned loose at the same time with plenty of space between them. In the evening they got back to their own paddocks or stables for the night.

Can it be fixed?

My SO doesn't want to paddock him with our mare again as the behaivour was like resource guarding, he was attacking the baby each time mare showed interest (she's a brilliant foster mum, she looks after all newbies and babies at our old yard so i knew she'd never cause an issue). So I can't pop him back with her, they're refusing to consider it. I think it's the wrong way to go about it but they've decided he's best to go back to his owner, I stand on the side of putting him back with mare and putting the baby in the adjacent paddock would be best, but that's been vetoed.

I'm concerned about putting him in the adjacent pony paddock because of his strength, I think there's a high chance he'll have the fences and posts down.
The only safe containment I have for him would be in his stable, which is brutal.

I also don't think his owner will be pleased to have him back and may try to refuse, I don't know what i'd do then.

 

[SEL]

Can it be fixed?

My SO doesn't want to paddock him with our mare again as the behaivour was like resource guarding, he was attacking the baby each time mare showed interest (she's a brilliant foster mum, she looks after all newbies and babies at our old yard so i knew she'd never cause an issue). So I can't pop him back with her, they're refusing to consider it. I think it's the wrong way to go about it but they've decided he's best to go back to his owner, I stand on the side of putting him back with mare and putting the baby in the adjacent paddock would be best, but that's been vetoed.

I'm concerned about putting him in the adjacent pony paddock because of his strength, I think there's a high chance he'll have the fences and posts down.
The only safe containment I have for him would be in his stable, which is brutal.

I also don't think his owner will be pleased to have him back and may try to refuse, I don't know what i'd do then.

Who is refusing to consider putting the gelding and mare back together? If they're your horses then you make the decision!

Otherwise he can't stay in a stable so he'll have to go in the paddock where he can't see anyone - and that might give you more issues.

I suspect he'd be fine back in with his mare and your youngster will have his new friend shortly so could live next door.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

The owner has been asking me to use our paddocks as she knows it's just us on this land - I've said no because of various reasons So i know 100% she doesn't have space for him at her yard (she literally purchased a youngster a few weeks after I took him on which took his stable) which is why i think it'll be made difficult, which isn't fair on him.
I'm not nervous around horses but I think i'll be going back to something bad later, I think he will try to mow me down again to get out the door when it's time to muck him out, i'm apprehensive of it.

When you go back out, get help to bring in the mare and weanling, before you attempt to do anything with grumpy socks.
Then you'll at least know they are safe if he does bash the door past you.

Agree with the others, what's done is done and you need a high level of risk management till he goes, even if it means the weanling is only out for a few hours while grumpy one can then be turned out.

 

[MCP030405]

When you go back out, get help to bring in the mare and weanling, before you attempt to do anything with grumpy socks.
Then you'll at least know they are safe if he does bash the door past you.

Agree with the others, what's done is done and you need a high level of risk management till he goes, even if it means the weanling is only out for a few hours while grumpy one can then be turned out

Absolutely, the plan is to go a bit earlier to get mare and foal in, then see what happens with him.
I've stripped him and have a spare stable I could put him in to keep him a bit further away from them? I could also go every lunch and bring the 2 in and let him out, but I feel awful him just being alone. I really do like him but can't trust this behavior.

I'll talk to his owner when we've got them settled tonight.
If you were in my situation, would you offer to pay for a month of livery if she took him back ASAP? I have 1 month notice, so I feel like paying that if she'd take him before would be the kindest thing for him.

I don't want him locked up, i'd gladly pay for her livery, give her the joint supplement I got him and tbf even give her the stable rug i purchased, I just want him safe and happy away from my girls. He was fine at her yard apparently, but she filled his stable when I took him on, getting a youngster.

 

[SEL]

Absolutely, the plan is to go a bit earlier to get mare and foal in, then see what happens with him.
I've stripped him and have a spare stable I could put him in to keep him a bit further away from them? I could also go every lunch and bring the 2 in and let him out, but I feel awful him just being alone. I really do like him but can't trust this behavior.

I'll talk to his owner when we've got them settled tonight.
If you were in my situation, would you offer to pay for a month of livery if she took him back ASAP? I have 1 month notice, so I feel like paying that if she'd take him before would be the kindest thing for him.

I don't want him locked up, i'd gladly pay for her livery, give her the joint supplement I got him and tbf even give her the stable rug i purchased, I just want him safe and happy away from my girls. He was fine at her yard apparently, but she filled his stable when I took him on, getting a youngster.

I'd offer a month's livery just to see if that helps get him back to her -especially as you know she's filled his stable

 

[Arzada]

If you were in my situation, would you offer to pay for a month of livery if she took him back ASAP?

Yes I would.

What does SO stand for?