Advice needed for vet visit due tomorrow please?

[Fransurrey]

She might well be sensitive all over her body, if the problem is her skin. I had a mare who appeared to have behaviour problems but eventually we found out that she was reacting to her feed. Her nerve endings must have been inflamed, as she too was sensitive to touch all over her body. This might explain why your mare struggles when you give an aid but doesn't actually have a physical problem with the movements.

I was going to say similar. In the field or on the lunge, my mare will canter willingly, but if I ask her to on a hack, it's like I've applied a handbrake. When she's keen to get somewhere, she'll break into canter of her own accord and it's lovely!

 

[ester]

Although imaging has come on a lot there’s a lot of things pain wise they aren’t able to pick up on. Especially when nerves become sensitised. There are very few places you could touch me without it being either a bit or very painful in the particularly sensitised areas. I’d probably vet pretty sound and although I’m still ?SI it is suspected not to be mechanical.

I often think I’m glad I’m not a horse as no one would believe anything hurt.

 

[Nudibranch]

My latest response might answer that question. Upbringing I would have thought.

Well, I was going to refrain from sharing as it's somewhat doom and gloom but hey ho...
I had a big, very smart gelding who had been over handled and spoiled as a foal. He came right and learned manners but was guaranteed to try it on with anyone new and was the kind of horse who would have been called rude and "badly brought up" if given the chance. I could have blamed it all on that.
As it happened, the subtle "not quite right", the odd hitch in trot, the little bucks going into canter, turned out to be neck and hock arthritis and SI issues. Along with probable wobblers. That part we will never know as he was pts aged 7. I'm just glad I listened before his whispers turned to screams.

 

[Ellietotz]

Well, I was going to refrain from sharing as it's somewhat doom and gloom but hey ho...
I had a big, very smart gelding who had been over handled and spoiled as a foal. He came right and learned manners but was guaranteed to try it on with anyone new and was the kind of horse who would have been called rude and "badly brought up" if given the chance. I could have blamed it all on that.
As it happened, the subtle "not quite right", the odd hitch in trot, the little bucks going into canter, turned out to be neck and hock arthritis and SI issues. Along with probable wobblers. That part we will never know as he was pts aged 7. I'm just glad I listened before his whispers turned to screams.

Sorry to hear that.
They've xrayed her hocks and injected the SI and it's all come back negative.

 

[Ellietotz]

The amount doesn't really matter. On the face of it, there isn't much in there that she might be reacting to but there is one poster on here whose horse is allergic to grass - and the grassnuts might contain something that she reacts to. I bought a sack of grassnuts from the local farmstores rather than the tack shop, only to find that they were a mix of grass and alfalfa. They could (almost certainly will) also have some sort of binder. It might be worth stopping feeding the grassnuts, or swapping them for something like Agrobs Haycobs for about a month to see if that makes a difference.

She's been on hay cobs, fast fibre and even no feed. She still only likes being touched when she wants to.

 

[Ellietotz]

She might well be sensitive all over her body, if the problem is her skin. I had a mare who appeared to have behaviour problems but eventually we found out that she was reacting to her feed. Her nerve endings must have been inflamed, as she too was sensitive to touch all over her body. This might explain why your mare struggles when you give an aid but doesn't actually have a physical problem with the movements.

Wouldn't something like this show up on bloods though?

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm really upset about it all. I don't understand why he agreed she was moving stiffly last week to then tell me today that she moves fine and it's just her. I specifically took her through the stress of travelling to the practice so that they could use the lameness equipment that they couldn't bring to the yard which they didn't even use. All they did was xrays and ridden assessment then just thought it was best to inject her SI. And £1900 later, I'm not even sure how much further I can go after a pointless lot of time spent with nothing to show for it.

 

[BBP]

I’m also confused as to why a ridden assessment 1 week after injecting is enough to say it can’t be SI? Mine was still being walked out in hand after a week, let alone being trotted and cantered under saddle. And he was injected 2x at 4 weeks apart.

There are so many things it could be and it p*sses me off when a vet says it’s behavioural just because they can’t find the problem. I’ve written on here so many times about my horses SI, ulcers, allergies and my own hyper sensitisation issues, including I think on one of your threads so I won’t bore you with it again, but as Ester says, I’d certainly be one that the vet said was behavioural and yet was in a world of pain. I guess if I can’t convince my own GP then how on earth can a horse convince a vet.

 

[be positive]

I’m also confused as to why a ridden assessment 1 week after injecting is enough to say it can’t be SI? Mine was still being walked out in hand after a week, let alone being trotted and cantered under saddle. And he was injected 2x at 4 weeks apart.

Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...rrow-please.771876/page-2#AoJctg2tq4pwPJEx.99

So am I, mine had two months of walking and trotting in straight lines plus a load of physio after his injections, he would not have been happy to canter so quickly into the rehab, I thought the whole purpose of the injections was to reduce the inflammation around the area so that the rehab could be done to build the muscles up and it was that that fixed the issue not the injection itself.
Mine was never reassessed by the vet as there was no need the gradual improvement was fairly clear, he took around 4 months to be completely happy working because the injury was chronic, which is the same in this case I would suspect if it is in part due to poor confo, if the OP continues with a sensible rehab plan, goes back to basics there is still a chance that the mare may improve over time but it will not be a quick fix.

 

[Caramac71]

OP, if you are in Facebook it might be worth reading some of the posts on the Horses with sacroiliac problems group. I was just reading a post from last night when someone was asking about symptoms and I thought if you when reading the replies.

Regarding your comment about hurting all over - when our mare was showing discomfort, she was like that. I tried doing the ulcers test and she reacted to everything. We had to brush her with the softest brush and she still didn’t like it. I’d actually forgotten about that as she’s nothing like it now!

I know myself when I’m in low grade pain (I have arthritis in my neck which flares up from time to time) - I become tense and grump, I hurt everywhere, not just the site of the pain, and my anxiety worsens. My body and mind are tense and I suspect this is how my horse is when she’s in pain, as she becomes more stressy and less compliant.

I also think my mare is highly sensitive and not as stoic as many horses would be. If something isn’t to her liking she lets us know! We’ve always said there are probably lots of horses in worse discomfort than her that just get on with it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am afraid I think your vet is (at best) frustrated, knows that your insurance company might not pay for much more investigation and doesn't really know what to look at next. Or he just can't be bothered.

Unfortunately it is your job to work out what is wrong, which I know you are trying to do, and it isn't easy but she is trying to tell you that something is wrong. I'm afraid that it sounds as if it could be an inherited problem, if her mum and sister are the same - goodness knows why mum was bred from but it isn't good enough just to say that they are all like that. Pain from any site can be referred all anywhere in the body and inflammation can affect the nerves, making the skin seem very sensitive. When my (undiagnosed) allergies were at their worst, I couldn't bear to have a shower, because I couldn't stand the water falling on my skin. MY GPs thought it was all in my mind for years. It wasn't! There are a few recommendations on this thread and others for people for you to contact who may be able to help her.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'm disabled, in constant low grade pain with flare ups of pain so bad I'm always hovering just around the "call an ambulance" stage. And that's with max doses of opiate pain killers. The extent of the damage doesn't show up even on an MRI. It took all sorts of tests to work out just how much was wrong and where. I dont like being touched full stop. It might not hurt if you lightly touch my arm right now, but in an hours time it might set off horrific nerve pain. The thought it might hurt is enough not to want anyone to touch me ever.

After all of this and seeing what Tom Beech did for my horse, I found myself an incredibly good osteo and hes managed to, not fix me, but make my life bearable. But its taken 18 months of treatment, plus a podiatrist and a sports therapist to get there. Ironically barefoot is not recommended for me Clearly I'm not a horse, but I am a very good example of chronic pain and unlike a horse I can explain it

I'd wait and see what your vet comes back with. I've been concerned from the start that he didn't even discuss a rehab plan with you, and has now effectively walked away leaving you in limbo. I am really hoping they come back with some answers for you today. Its awful when you trust someone and their expertise but deep down don't think they are doing the right thing.

 

[Fransurrey]

I'm afraid that it sounds as if it could be an inherited problem, if her mum and sister are the same - goodness knows why mum was bred from but it isn't good enough just to say that they are all like that. Pain from any site can be referred all anywhere in the body and inflammation can affect the nerves, making the skin seem very sensitive.

It was years after buying my mare that I discovered that her sire, well known in the show circuit, was known for throwing sweet itch foals. They must have made a fortune from him, breeding crud. I bought her as a companion, so ridden wasn't essential, so her allergies only became a serious issue under saddle (due to behaviour). For this reason, I'm buying a horse so that when my gelding is pts, she can retire and go out for walks and runs with me instead. After 4 years, it's just not worth any more hassle or faceplants!!

Hope you get her sorted, OP. I think there's a few on here that feel your frustration. My mare only had one blood work up done, 2 years ago. It showed high alkaline phosphatase - a general inflammation marker. At the time she'd stopped eating and pooing for nearly 24 hours. I took her off grass (again) and she was fine within hours. Vet confirmed noisy, sloshy guts, but that was it. She's not insurable for skin, guts and colic, so no other tests have ever been done.

 

[SEL]

I'm another with a horse that is confusing the vets. I haven't ridden her since boxing day when she pretty much forgot how to use her back legs with me on board. Tom Beech out hopefully soon to see if he can give pointers. Plus I'm insisting on a blood test for Lyme just because its niggling at me - and last time something niggled the vet and I had a row and sadly I was proved right.

Anyway, that's not the reason for posting. When she had her hocks injected last October to vet told me to give the steroids a good couple of weeks to bed in and do their job. Hand walking for a week then slowly build up.

 

[Ellietotz]

Thanks everyone.
Just a quick update, I've sent them a long email to explain why I'm upset with the results. I've questioned why I was told to get my mare to the practice when they didn't use the lameness equipment they have there which was the whole reason for having to put her through the stress of travelling. I have said I'm upset that last week I was told she is stiff behind and he is certain it's the SI but didn't continue to do any other tests other than the xrays of back and legs I had asked for which showed nothing and then to be told yesterday she is fine and its in her head.
I have a huge outstanding bill that I'm not sure what to do with, whether to get them to put the claim in for SI or insist they continue investigating which will only rack up more money. I wanted them to check hind suspensories yesterday which he said he didn't feel the need to do so asking them again to do it is yet another call out charge too. I don't know whether to get a second opinion and leave the bill outstanding until I have an answer which could then hopefully be put in as a continuation claim. I just don't know what to do, I feel so lost with it all.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Frankly, the first thing I would have demanded is a faecal test for hind gut ulcers. Of course, that doesn't make much money for the vets - which might be why they haven't suggested it already.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I really feel for you Ellie it sounds like your vet has just given up with it, are you near any of the big equine hospitals? I would ask for a referral and get her there I know it's a headache but it's worth it if your going to get some answers.

 

[D66]

When I was investigating my horse's behaviour problem I was advised to try thunderbrook's base mix and their ulcagon because the feed was organic and didn't contain any nasty additives. I had been very happy feeding fast fibre and a bit of linseed and didn't think it would make any difference, but I was paying for the advice and might as well follow it.
Changed the feed in the evening and the next morning had a different horse. It wasn't the complete answer but it was another layer unwrapped.

 

[Ellietotz]

Frankly, the first thing I would have demanded is a faecal test for hind gut ulcers. Of course, that doesn't make much money for the vets - which might be why they haven't suggested it already.

My problem now is the outstanding bill I already have with no answers when that probably could have been avoided if they did things properly in the first place.

 

[JanetGeorge]

My problem now is the outstanding bill I already have with no answers when that probably could have been avoided if they did things properly in the first place.

Tell them that - in no uncertain terms! I think I'd be sacking them and getting another vet to do it - and starting a claim against your ex-vets. (Be warned - it's a PITA dealing with the Veterinary Defence Society - but fun watching them wriggle.)

 

[Hormonal Filly]

If she moves odd and doesn't want to canter, did they look at her neck at all? My gelding was very similar to that, took months then looked at the neck which showed bad arthritis lower neck. Just a idea.

 

[Ellietotz]

If she moves odd and doesn't want to canter, did they look at her neck at all? My gelding was very similar to that, took months then looked at the neck which showed bad arthritis lower neck. Just a idea.

She does want to canter, just not when she's told to. She will canter when told but she isn't happy about it. She has no issues going into canter herself!

 

[scats]

She does want to canter, just not when she's told to. She will canter when told but she isn't happy about it. She has no issues going into canter herself!

This is exactly what Polly was like. Would pop into canter of her own accord on the lunge or under saddle and in the field, but ask her and she’d have an absolute complete and utter meltdown.

 

[Ellietotz]

This is exactly what Polly was like. Would pop into canter of her own accord on the lunge or under saddle and in the field, but ask her and she’d have an absolute complete and utter meltdown.

So what is the reason? Is it just them or is it pain? I think her movement tells me something else is going on but I don't think her reactions to being asked to do things is because of that.

 

[whiteflower]

I really feel for you Ellie it sounds like your vet has just given up with it, are you near any of the big equine hospitals? I would ask for a referral and get her there I know it's a headache but it's worth it if your going to get some answers.

This. Sadly I have learnt through experience that where there is not a clear cause of a problem it's often better and cheaper to get referred to one of the large equine hospitals for a full work up. I've had a similar experience with my ex vets stabbing in the dark costing me money and not achieving anything or following any logical train of thought. I told them I wanted a referral as I believed the issue was more serious than they were saying. They told me I was over reacting to which I told them either they would refer me or I would be getting another vet to do so. Low and behold the diagnosis at newmarket was as I had predicted and sadly not the 'nothing' they had predicted. Now anything above basic lameness checks I will then asked to be referred even for the ones not insured.

 

[scats]

So what is the reason? Is it just them or is it pain? I think her movement tells me something else is going on but I don't think her reactions to being asked to do things is because of that.

Polly caused the vets a lot of head scratching. She was difficult to deal with and they couldn’t nerve block as she was dangerous. Bone scan showed hotspots in hocks and underside of the latter part of her thoracic, which they actually weren’t too concerned about. Hock x-rays showed mild arthritis so they injected. Sent her home on a rehab plan, which I did for four months. Her general condition improved and she was moving better, but her behaviour had got worse. Her reactions were extreme- rearing when asked to go forward into canter (then even trot), lathered in foamy sweat within minutes, throwing herself on the ground once back in the stable.
We took her back and checked ovaries. All fine. Vets said she was too dangerous to attempt to inject SI, plus they didn’t think it was that causing it. I pushed for suspensory scan, as this hadn’t been done. Was told I was barking up the wrong tree as she wasn’t trotting up, lunging or flexioning like a PSD horse. I was told to take her home and accept she’s not a riding horse. I asked them to scan her anyway, I had money to spare. They found PSD in her right hind, albeit mild. What they found still doesn’t really match how reactive she was, and I was told that they do think a lot of it is due to how senstive she is and that she may never be suitable for riding as a result. I’ve had to suck that up and accept it. She came home and has had 8 months off and is just returning to inhand work at the moment. I have no idea if she will ever be rideable. She might just be one that I have to shrug off as one I couldn’t fix and enjoy her for what she is. She’s comfortable and happy, a nice person to have around, I can afford to keep her and she’s a good companion. If any of those change, I’ll say goodbye.
Sometimes, no matter what you try, you can’t fix them all.

 

[Ellietotz]

This. Sadly I have learnt through experience that where there is not a clear cause of a problem it's often better and cheaper to get referred to one of the large equine hospitals for a full work up. I've had a similar experience with my ex vets stabbing in the dark costing me money and not achieving anything or following any logical train of thought. I told them I wanted a referral as I believed the issue was more serious than they were saying. They told me I was over reacting to which I told them either they would refer me or I would be getting another vet to do so. Low and behold the diagnosis at newmarket was as I had predicted and sadly not the 'nothing' they had predicted. Now anything above basic lameness checks I will then asked to be referred even for the ones not insured.

My vets have a big practice with gait abnormality analysing and lameness monitoring equipment. They have most things they needed to have probably been able to tell what was going on. I'm so angry that no one has even come back to me yet too. I have no reasons why or how they've come to this conclusion or even what the conclusion is, all I have is a huge bill!

 

[Leo Walker]

Its not so much the equipment, its the expertise you get at vet hospital. I'd be furious and upset too!

 

[Ellietotz]

Basically, this was their thought process:

1. Doesn't look right, stiff movement, classic signs for SI pain, let's inject and do absolutely nothing else or even scan the SI joint.
2. *one week later* Oh, doesn't look like the injections have done anything. Must be nothing then and she looks like she's moving fine. That's £1900 please. Bye!

 

[scats]

I’m amazed they even looked at her again a week later. Usually after a steroid injection, you are given a pretty extensive rehab plan.

Write it all down in an email Ellie and get your concerns through to the vets.