Advice needed in regards to a Non Racing Agreement please

the fact that this is written on a non racing agreement doesn't really mean anything unless you are involved in racing and the authorities would have a say in the future. Weatherby's don't care what happens to this horse, it's not a legally binding contract and in your shoes I would just go ahead and sell the horse and stop further contact with the previous owners. Offer them first refusal if you like but at your price, not theirs and then get on and sell the horse and move on with your life.
 
"Giving the horse away is disposing of it."

I suppose so yes, but I think of 'disposing' as in PTS, I guess it depends on which way you look at it. I would consider disposing & gifting as 2 different things but I guess legally that may not be the case.
 
I suspect a legal interpretation would apply here, and in non horsey circles disposing of something means getting rid of it, however that is done. Sounds horrible to talk about a horse as an object in that way, but the courts would apply the normal everyday meaning unfortunately.
 
bonny said:
If you read back I said to offer the original owners her back at the price she wants now, I think that would be fair in the circumstances and if they say no then sell her to whoever wants her....my point was that they can't expect to just have the horse back for nothing because they once owned her ! No one surely would agree to that ?
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I was replying to your statement below where you said that previous owners should only loan horses if they wish to safeguard their future. Decent responsible people who care about their horses do want to keep any horses they've owned/bred safe, but that doesn't mean we have to own them for the whole of their lives. More that we will buy them back in times of need.
bonny said:
If they had wanted a say in her future they should have loaned her.
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bonny said:
the fact that this is written on a non racing agreement doesn't really mean anything unless you are involved in racing and the authorities would have a say in the future. Weatherby's don't care what happens to this horse, it's not a legally binding contract and in your shoes I would just go ahead and sell the horse and stop further contact with the previous owners. Offer them first refusal if you like but at your price, not theirs and then get on and sell the horse and move on with your life.
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The next owner would probably find that when they send the passport in to get ownership changed, if the box was ticked, that it gets flagged up, the agreement clearly states the original owner needs to give permission in writing which I expect needs to go in with the passport, so saying to sell on because Weatherbys do not care is not fair on the next owner who will be the one having to sort this out.

The OP has been given advice to contact Weatherbys directly to see whether the box was ticked, whether this was done after she signed and to see if they will back her with dealing with the old owners, the NRA should be treated in the way it was designed to try and help get more racehorses out of training and into useful homes, the original owner of this horse is acting badly but I have a horse here who will be looking for a home out of racing and having seen the form it makes me more confident that when he moves on it should be possible to keep track of him as well as ensure he does not race again.
 
Weatherby's can stop a horse racing again but they can't stop someone selling their own horse to whoever they like....it's nothing at all to do with them, why would they get involved ? You buy a horse and it becomes yours, there are no conditions to it, if that's not what you want then loan. Anyone can ask for first refusal in the case of the horse being sold but that's not a legal contract....and neither is this.
 
Thanks that would be great
kez81 said:
I would agree with others for you to seek legal advice but I am also reasonably confident that you are legally able to sell the horse under property law as long as you have proof of sole ownership. Will see if I can find a good info link for you.
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amymay said:
Then sell her.

Although it seems a shame not to offer the trainers first refusal, as they seem to have her best interests at heart.
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Did you miss the bit about the trainers wanting the, now very saleable horse with lots more experience and training, back free of charge? It doesn't seem they are interested in first refusal unless it's free!

Op I feel for you, surely there must be some kind of time bound rule relating to this or some sort of get out, what if your circumstances changed and you could no longer keep the horse for financial or health reasons? Definitely call weatherbys and get some legal advice.
 
bonny said:
Weatherby's can stop a horse racing again but they can't stop someone selling their own horse to whoever they like....it's nothing at all to do with them, why would they get involved ? You buy a horse and it becomes yours, there are no conditions to it, if that's not what you want then loan. Anyone can ask for first refusal in the case of the horse being sold but that's not a legal contract....and neither is this.
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Absolutely....how many times on here do we get people upset because a horse they sold in good faith has been quite quickly passed on?

And what do we always say? Once it's sold, it's sold...and you have no legal hold over the seller and that contracts are not worth the paper they are written on.

I would sell. Your horse....you paid for her. If they don't want to buy back at current market value....sell her to someone who will.

You can't own a horse, sell it....and then expect to have a say in its future for ever more....that's utter madness, for by that notion any owner other than the original one is forever beholden despite making a legal purchase. The mind boggles, truly.
 
I don't think you can expect to sell the horse at a price to cover your costs. All the work you put in to it would be "worthwhile" if she had turned out to be exceptional but you have taken a gamble on this, and now need to find a home for her as she is not suitable for competition at desired level.
You can offer the horse back to trainer [was he the owner ... only an owner can sell a horse] at the price you paid. If you don't want to do this then find another buyer.
Trainers are not dealers, they train horses for a living.
I am very surprised that the horse has a high market value given its limitations.
any money [£1000] you had to pay out is just part of the normal cost of ownership. It is a hobby, we have to pay for our hobbies.
If you had had the horse vetted it might have thrown up problems which required treatment.
 
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Trainers are not altruistic, they may like working with horses but they are out to make a living out of horses. What ever the trainer sold the horse for he was covering some of his costs, it can not been worth much as a racehorse as if it was he would have put through the sales. I have a friend who trains and he gives them away to people he knows and would be really happy if one of his old horses was doing well out of training whether they sold it on or not, the other option once 'owners' stop paying training fees is the bullet.
 
MrsD123 said:
I don't think you can expect to sell the horse at a price to cover your costs. All the work you put in to it would be "worthwhile" if she had turned out to be exceptional but you have taken a gamble on this, and now need to find a home for her as she is not suitable for competition at desired level.
You can offer the horse back to trainer [was he the owner ... only an owner can sell a horse] at the price you paid. If you don't want to do this then find another buyer.
Trainers are not dealers, they train horses for a living.
I am very surprised that the horse has a high market value given its limitations.
any money [£1000] you had to pay out is just part of the normal cost of ownership. It is a hobby, we have to pay for our hobbies.
If you had had the horse vetted it might have thrown up problems which required treatment.
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^^^
¦¦¦

This is what I think.

You should offer horse back to trainer for what you paid them.
Any money spent on horse is to be expected and is normal in horse ownership, you can't expect to recoup this.

Them expecting to get horse back for free is wrong, I agree.

How much did you pay them out of interest?
 
I would offer the horse back to the trainer at the price you paid for him (what you spent on him for tack, vets and physio are not things you factor in anyway) and tell them otherwise you'd take legal action.
 
OP says purchase price was small but significant ...... this is subjective, when I worked in racing we sold some of the lesser lights at public auction, most fetched over £5,000, but they were still in racing. We were riding horses worth six figures every day of the week.

When an owner of a RS type told me they paid a lot for their horse [£3000], I was rather amused.
 
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Not a lawyer but I don't see anything in that contract that says that you have to give the horse back FOC to the previous owners.

In saying that, there is also nothing that says that they have to give permission to sell on either.

IIWY, I think that I would, in the first instance, join the BHS as a gold member and ask their legal advice line whether The Jockey Club/Weatherbys have a protocol/rule that can be used in these circumstances as the trainer will be governed by them.

If there is nothing there (and I'm sure there must be - they have rules for everything else!) I would invest in a consultation with a good solicitor to find out whether the clause is realistically enforceable in a civil court and go from there.

Good Luck.
 
honetpot said:
I do not see how it can be legal, and because it to stop people racing horses registered you would not be breaking the terms of the agreement. If it is enforceable it is restricting free trade and counter productive because why would you want to the invest in the education of a horse when you have no chance of recouping that outlay if the horse is not suitable.
If they say they want the horse back and do not want to pay you that is blackmail, I would only use e-mail or letter in any negotiations and try Citizens Advice as well as the BHS.
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It not blackmail ,
Blackmail is if you don't give x I will do y .
 
Does anyone know if this Non Racing Agreement is a legal document and would stand up in court? I have just rang weatherbys and they've said they don't even hold the back 2 pages of the NRA. Also rang the BHA and they said that trainers do this sort of stuff all the time, but couldn't advise me on the legalities.

I have also been looking through my paperwork and I have a copy of this which I scanned after I had signed it... A blank one without any ticks on. Again the BHA could not advise me on this.

Ideally I don't want to have to go to court.

All whetherbys and BHA care about is whether it races or not, not whether it's sold. That's what the agreement was made for to stop a horse being entered into races not to stop it being sold.
 
time to consult a specialist equine solicitor and find out how to proceed, if it does end up in court it would be expensive as it's a civil matter not criminal so best to get things cleared up before you decide what to do. do keep us updated though as i'd be very interested to know what a solicitor says having had a similar contract with a gifted horse.
 
I'm not in a position to afford a solicitor otherwise I would probably just buy myself a new horse. Not a gold member either. I won't be taking anyone to court in any case anyway. I meant if they took me to court.
Ibblebibble said:
time to consult a specialist equine solicitor and find out how to proceed, if it does end up in court it would be expensive as it's a civil matter not criminal so best to get things cleared up before you decide what to do. do keep us updated though as i'd be very interested to know what a solicitor says having had a similar contract with a gifted horse.
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OP, do you have house insurance? Horse insurance? Most of those have free legal advice attached. I don't think you need specifically equine solicitor tbh.
I am not really qualified to advise, so it is my personal opinion only:
sell the horse as the box ticked means nothing, give the trainer first refusal at whatever price you want in writing, if you get no response or he still wants the horse for free, just advertise said horse and sell it to whomever you fancy. The trainer would find it difficult to take you to court, as there can't be a loss established on his part, really.
 
I would phone BHS for the legal advice TBH.

May not be blackmail, but it's definitely some form of extortion! Who in their right mind would ever tick that box if they thought they would have to give the horse back for free?!
 
flojo said:
The OP sates that she is NOT trying to make a profit. She just wants to find a suitable home and not be out of pocket herself. Sounds reasonable enough to me.
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Sorry, haven't had time to read any replies and no doubt mine will be unpopular but speaking as someone who keeps their word I find it awful and dishonorable that the OP is thinking of breaking the agreement which enabled her to buy the horse in the first place.
The money she's spent on the horse should not be seen as recllaimable in this instance at all; you don't try to recoup your travel costs when selling a car so why should a horse be seen as any different?
The agreement was made honorably by the trainer in the quest to find it a suitable home at a lowish price because they wanted to know where the horse was going to; if they couldn't be bothered it would just as easily have gone to the sales for anyone to buy it; the fact that the OP's requirements have changed because the horse does not fit the bill now is not the trainer's fault. The OP knew they were issued with a contract of sale and it's their own fault they did not read it thoroughly to start with and query at the time then this whole thing wouldn't be happening. As it is, they just come across as someone wanting to renage on an agreement that was put in place to give the horse a chance of a second career; the money they've spent on it just comes down to running costs I'm afraid and not something to barter with; for all the trainer knows, the OP could have made a hash of the reschooling which will make the horse worth less now than at the start if they have it back; I'm not saying they have, just pointing out what any horse seller looking at having to buy back would be thinking.
Bottom line, you should not break an agreement like that simply because you don't like the rules now you have read them.
 
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