Advice needed on returning a horse to a dealer

[Floralaura]

Hi all looking for some general advice please. Does anyone have any experience with getting a refund after bying a horse from a dealer? I purchased a horse off a video from what I thought was a reputable dealer. Passed a 5 stage vetting. Horse arrived and making a noise when exercised. This is very apparent. Hoped it was due to picking up an infection, two courses of antibiotics and still making very noticeable noise. Scope shows complete paralysis on one side. I have kept in touch with dealer the whole time. Keeps saying never made a noise with them. Im fairly sure I have grounds to gety money back but now said dealer is avoiding my calls. What do I do? Is there anyone that can advise me please?

 

[ycbm]

Was the horse bought from a dealer in the UK?

If so, in theory you have a right to return, but unfortunately, if your vetting mentions no wind noise then the dealer is well placed to insist that the paralysis happened after it left his yard and it will be difficult to prove it didn't.

Unless you can find any evidence that the horse made a noise before you bought it (any videos on Facebook that you hadn't seen?) or a vet will stand up in court and swear this paralysis can't happen overnight (which is unlikely because I've had one where it did) then I think you are on a loser with this one, sorry.

If you are insured then I hope you were outside 14 days on the policy when you first noticed it, but it sounds like not. The tie back operation is very effective and relatively quick and simple to get them through.
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[Floralaura]

Yes UK dealer, noticed it straight away, only have the horse a month. Given it time to improve. My vet thinks I'm entitled to send back? Tie back no good as purchased to sell on would have to declare that only a 3 year old.

 

[ycbm]

I think the dealer can use your own vetting to prove that the horse did not have laryngeal paralysis on the day you bought it. And if he's right he will also have video he can produce with no excessive breathing noise audible on the soundtrack. I would be prepared for them to fight you all the way to court.

The trouble with nerve damage is it can happen any time. I owned a big young horse for months and suddenly one day he was roaring when I trotted up a hill. You might know this, but all big horses have the propensity to become roarers, and it's always the left hand side because of the crazy length and routing of the nerve on the left, down the neck, around the aorta and back up again to the larynx. So it could be problematic to claim that the horse had an inherent weakness, they all do. (Though of course not all of them end up roaring, and a good lawyer in front of the right judge might be able to use that point to "prove" yours was flawed when sold.)

Did you use a vet recommended by the dealer?

Will your own vet swear in court that this has to be a long standing problem and can't be sudden onset?

Can you obtain any evidence that the horse was a roarer before you bought it?

I'm sorry you're in this situation, it's pants, but I think it's possible that the dealer sold you a horse which didn't roar.
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[shortstuff99]

You should look up the distance selling rules, as I believe you have a right to return regardless if there is an issue or not.

 

[ycbm]

Only if returned in the condition in which it was bought, and this horse has a vetting certificate with no wind defect mentioned.

I think it can also be argued that a representative of the buyer viewed the horse for her (the vet) and that this is therfore not distance selling.
.

 

[stormox]

It depends how bad the noise is. I had a horse who made a slight whistle on inspiration at fast work, I sold him to a man at 5 as he grew to 18hh, the chap had him vetted and the vet (a top equine specialist) I was expecting him to fail but he just said it was very minor, he was fine for what the chap wanted him for (hunting) and wasnt going to be an issue unless he was being used for racing and so he passed as fit for the declared use.
So I think it might depend on what you told the vet he was to be used for

 

[LEC]

Are you a member of BD? They have an excellent legal service. Much better than BHS. A friend had similar - got money back from vetting and sent horse back and got money back. This was on chronic side bone diagnosed a few weeks later but not picked up in vetting. You should also be picking this up with vet who did the vetting.

 

[Flyermc]

Have you spoken to the vet that vetted the horse and also perhaps the person who transported the horse? I appreciate that the transporter wouldn't have exercised the horse, but worth asking if they have noticed anything.

 

[Sossigpoker]

It sounds like your first call should be to the vet who did the vetting. How can the horse have passed the lunging and ridden assessment without the roar being noticed ?
What does your vet say about the possibility that the horse might not have made the noise in the vetting?

 

[Cowpony]

Were you there for the vetting? If not, is there a possibility that the vet didn't actually vet this horse, but a substitute? If you didn't see the horse until it came off the lorry it may not be the one you thought you were buying.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Were you there for the vetting? If not, is there a possibility that the vet didn't actually vet this horse, but a substitute? If you didn't see the horse until it came off the lorry it may not be the one you thought you were buying.

The last vetting I had done, the vet checked the passport against the horse and scanned the chip to check that matched too.

 

[Wishfilly]

Were you there for the vetting? If not, is there a possibility that the vet didn't actually vet this horse, but a substitute? If you didn't see the horse until it came off the lorry it may not be the one you thought you were buying.

The vet should have checked the microchip to the passport, though? Which OP's vet has also hopefully done?

 

[Fred66]

You’ve mentioned you bought to sell on this implies that you are buying on a commercial basis and therefore the rights given to a member of the public buying from a dealer won’t apply.
Your insurance might cover you immediately as you had a vetting, this is likely to be your best option

 

[Cowpony]

The vet should have checked the microchip to the passport, though? Which OP's vet has also hopefully done?

Wouldn't be the first time a vet and a dealer had colluded, although OP does say it's a reputable dealer, so I agree it's unlikely.

 

[Goldenstar]

You have recourse against the vet for missing it .
And you can return to dealer as well get an equine solicitor.

 

[Wishfilly]

Wouldn't be the first time a vet and a dealer had colluded, although OP does say it's a reputable dealer, so I agree it's unlikely.

I agree the vet and dealer could have colluded, but in that case it's more likely the vet just signed the horse off than the dealer presented a healthy horse and the vet did a vetting but didn't check the microchip?

 

[Jenko109]

Buying unseen allows you more time to return.

Yes. You have every right to return this horse for a full refund. You do not have to prove anything.

Put your foot down. If they refuse to take the horse back then start court proceedings. You will win.

 

[Cowpony]

I agree the vet and dealer could have colluded, but in that case it's more likely the vet just signed the horse off than the dealer presented a healthy horse and the vet did a vetting but didn't check the microchip?

I'd clearly be a rubbish fraudster! Never thought of that

 

[Wishfilly]

I'd clearly be a rubbish fraudster! Never thought of that

Fair enough!

To be clear, I'm not an expert fraudster, but did used to work in a job where I came across this sort of thing sometimes!

 

[ycbm]

Buying unseen allows you more time to return.

Yes. You have every right to return this horse for a full refund. You do not have to prove anything.

Put your foot down. If they refuse to take the horse back then start court proceedings. You will win.

I bought unseen two weeks ago. Nobody connected to me saw the horse before it was delivered to me. In a legal sense, the horse this thread is about was not bought unseen, it was fully inspected by a representative of the buyer, the vet.

It is also entirely possible that the horse did not start to roar until after it was vetted, and the sale was agreed as soon as it passed the vet.

Some clinical features of laryngeal hemiplegia in 127 horses are described. Possible aetiologic factors were found in only 11% of affected animals. The onset of clinical signs was either sudden or insidious.

Equine laryngeal hemiplegia part II: Some clinical observations
B E Goulden 1, L J Anderson

I think would be unwise to proceed on an absolute assumption that the buyer will win a court case under those circumstances. Depending on the price of the horse, though, there would be little to lose from taking a small claim, though it could be very unfair on the seller to do so.
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[ycbm]

I agree it's quite possible that the buyer has been scammed on this horse. But that may not be the case, and even if it is, that doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to prove that or to get a refund.

I hope the OP returns and tells us how the vet was chosen.
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[stormox]

As the OP is a dealer of some kind, saying she bought the horse to sell on, this does mean she cannot use small claims court I believe and also that the rights are different to a private buyer......please correct me if Im wrong but I took a dealwr to amall claims court and Im sure I was asked if I was a private buyer.

 

[Fred66]

Buying unseen allows you more time to return.

Yes. You have every right to return this horse for a full refund. You do not have to prove anything.

Put your foot down. If they refuse to take the horse back then start court proceedings. You will win.

The buyer may well also be classed as a business, as OP said they bought with the intent of selling on, in which case the Consumer Credit Act wouldn’t apply.
As others have said the OP had a vet check it on her behalf.
I think the probability of winning any court case would definitely not be a sure thing.

 

[ycbm]

As the OP is a dealer of some kind, saying she bought the horse to sell on, this does mean she cannot use small claims court I believe and also that the rights are different to a private buyer......please correct me if Im wrong but I took a dealwr to amall claims court and Im sure I was asked if I was a private buyer.

Businesses can use small claims but I don't think consumer protection law applies the same way.

 

[ester]

yup trade to trade is different

 

[Melody Grey]

I, as a business, have taken individuals to the small claims court- not horse trade related though, but businesses can use SCC.

 

[Floralaura]

Hi all thank you for all your comments and advice. I used a vet recommended by the seller. Which I know was stupid but I super trusted in the seller and they told me horse was A1. Now horse was only let of loose in large arena to check wind. No lunging or riding as not broken.
Have spoke to vet and they originally told me I would be entitled to refund now they have spoken to seller and shown them the video I had shown vet as proof. They are telling me it must have happened on travelling. noticed noise day 3 of owning horse as gave two rest days after transport, immediately told seller and vet of my concerns. Is it really plausible that a horse can go from no noise to very noticeable at the trot at the commencement of exercise within 4 days?

 

[Floralaura]

I agree it's quite possible that the buyer has been scammed on this horse. But that may not be the case, and even if it is, that doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to prove that or to get a refund.

I hope the OP returns and tells us how the vet was chosen.
.

On sellers recommendation stupidly.

 

[Floralaura]

It sounds like your first call should be to the vet who did the vetting. How can the horse have passed the lunging and ridden assessment without the roar being noticed ?
What does your vet say about the possibility that the horse might not have made the noise in the vetting?

Initially vet said it is possible that you can miss it in a vetting and that the horse was very fresh. They told me that they had purchased a horse themselves which was wrong of the wind which they hadn't noticed. However no details have emerged for how long they listened to l this horse at the vetting and how hard he was made to blow. etc.