Advice needed on which bit for my daughter's new pony.

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callisto

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I bought a new pony just before Christmas for my 11yo daughter. New pony is 14.1 Welsh D type mare, very green (much greener than expected or sold as) and spooky but very sweet natured, talented and starting to get the idea.

Pony came with a standard eggbutt snaffle which I changed to a hanging cheek French link. She goes beautifully in this in the school, but there are braking issues when cantering in open country. She has a flash noseband and running martingale. Daughter has good hands but not yet established independent seat.

I ride the pony regularly and for me I would keep her in the hanging cheek, but she can be strong when cantering (and has a super-charged engine so is much, much faster than daughters 13hh pony) and my daughter just isn't strong enough to cope.

Pony has a fat tongue in a little mouth.
 
I would suggest that your daughter doesn't canter in open country until she has a decent seat.
Tough I know, and I have no problem with severe bits on ponies, but an 11 year old girl is never going to be able to stop a 14.1 Welsh using the reins alone. For now, could you hack the pony out to school it on steady cantering and your daughter only ride in safer environments?I get that isn't answering the question!
 
Clodagh said:
I would suggest that your daughter doesn't canter in open country until she has a decent seat.
Tough I know, and I have no problem with severe bits on ponies, but an 11 year old girl is never going to be able to stop a 14.1 Welsh using the reins alone. For now, could you hack the pony out to school it on steady cantering and your daughter only ride in safer environments?I get that isn't answering the question!
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I think that she should have lessons from a child friendly instructor, though it would be ideal if you could send them on a week's course with others of same age, but otherwise have two lessons per week, this will sort out these issues.
The bit needs to suit the mouth, comfortable in mouth, not to be used as an iron bar, all that happens then, is that the pony learns to pull harder than the child, which is not difficult for the pony, but impossible for the child.
The big risk is that said child will just stop riding, and you are left with a difficult situation.
 
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That's what we are doing at the moment, and I don't have a huge problem with her not cantering out of the school at the moment. But it's not too many months until camp and the pony needs to be stoppable for this and any xc rallies. Daughter has ridden since she was tiny, her seat isn't bad. She isn't a novice by any means.
 
To give a little more info, my daughter has competed successfully up to 85cm on her 13hh and been to several camps and countless rallies. She regularly has one to one lessons and is at the moment having a lesson once a week with a very well respected PC instructor. My daughter isn't a novice by any means. I need advice on a stronger bit.
 
callisto said:
To give a little more info, my daughter has competed successfully up to 85cm on her 13hh and been to several camps and countless rallies. She regularly has one to one lessons and is at the moment having a lesson once a week with a very well respected PC instructor. My daughter isn't a novice by any means. I need advice on a stronger bit.
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You said she does not have an independant seat, so there is something wrong somewhere if she has been riding for years and had regular instruction.
I rode a bad pony once, and he used to take off when he got the notion, what I did with him was to hold my whip up in the air, to distract him, when I knew he was going to do something [he had lots of tricks] this did not go down well at pony club, as you can imagine.
He did not frighten me when he took off: I was an adult and he was 13.2, there was no question as to which was the stronger, he actually lifted me in the air on one occasion!
Actually I have never been frightened when I have been pissed off with, as the ponies were always too clever to damage themselves.
One big horse would not stop for me, so I rode him round the field till he was ready to stop, then I rode him round again, and again, till I decided to stop. That was the last time he tried that.
I have ridden hundreds of horses, and never had a problem with them, if the bit is painful then it is likely to make the situation unpredictable, otherwise its not going to make much difference. Whenwe see show jumpers in all sorts of gear, this essentially is to control the paces and the turns, it is not to improve the brakes.
 
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Could you try a ported Pelham with two reins? You only need use the bottom rein if the brakes fail. I'm by no means a bit expert though!
 
callisto said:
To give a little more info, my daughter has competed successfully up to 85cm on her 13hh and been to several camps and countless rallies. She regularly has one to one lessons and is at the moment having a lesson once a week with a very well respected PC instructor. My daughter isn't a novice by any means. I need advice on a stronger bit.
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I'd try a kimblewick just when she needs it.
 
I'd try a kimblewick just when she needs it. With a small port for the pony's tongue. She could use I with 2 reins if her hands are big enough or being non purest for safety's sake one rein at camp. Just be aware it's a Ds fave trick to stick its chin on its chest and hide behind the contact. If this is the case then try a Wilkie with whatever mouthpiece suits the shape of his mouth best.

ETA sorry the forum keeps posting half way thru my post -
 
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Kimblewick is on my hit list, but I've never used one before - what is the action on the mouth/poll?

I think a Pelham with two reins is probably asking a bit too much of little hands, and I don't like the roundings. My default is the mildest bit I can fine, hence the hanging cheek French link. All of her ponies have been in fulmers with French link and my OTTB is in an eggbutt French link.
 
It's a curb bit so acts on mouth curb grove and has some poll action. But it is milder than most so a good one to see the horses reaction. It sounds as tho you are a competent rider so I would ride horse in whatever you choose prior to daughter just in case the horse objects strongly to the new action.
 
blitznbobs said:
It's a curb bit so acts on mouth curb grove and has some poll action. But it is milder than most so a good one to see the horses reaction. It sounds as tho you are a competent rider so I would ride horse in whatever you choose prior to daughter just in case the horse objects strongly to the new action.
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Yes, I will definitely try pony in any new bit first. She is a sweety and doesn't do anything in a nasty way. She certainly hasn't shown any evidence of pinning her chin to her chest - which I really wouldn't be impressed with. It's more lack of schooling and lack of understanding what is expected of her.
 
The other thing is that your daughter may now be too nervous to relax, so she is holding him up, and this is making the situation a self fulfilling prophecy, its quite a common scenario with people who have never ridden a strong animal, I found this out when I took a racehorse on the beach for a canter, I thought I was being run away with. I can laugh now, but my first reaction was to pull hard on the reins, and she duly stopped!
I don't like French link, the action is painful, why do we want the horse to stop because it is painful to procede, that is just madness.
I also don't like a Fulmer, and I don't think the way you do about how to ride. To me, the horse needs a mouth to be made, and this is the main reason to move away from a lozenge bit like the Neu Schule Starter which is as kind as an egg butt snaffle, or kinder as there is no nut cracker action.
 
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I was going to suggest a wilkie bit with French link. Just for a small bit of extra control.

I had a Welsh D as a teen and because he was green, he seemed terribly strong. I started with a Cheltenham gag and worked down through a Pelham, a Kimble wick and eventually to a snaffle for everything.

Good luck..

Fiona
 
Exploding Chestnuts said:
The other thing is that your daughter may now be too nervous to relax, so she is holding him up, and this is making the situation a self fulfilling prophecy, its quite a common scenario with people who have never ridden a strong animal, I found this out when I took a racehorse on the beach for a canter, I thought I was being run away with. I can laugh now, but my first reaction was to pull hard on the reins, and she duly stopped!
I don't like French link, the action is painful, why do we want the horse to stop because it is painful to procede, that is just madness.
I also don't like a Fulmer, and I don't think the way you do about how to ride. To me, the horse needs a mouth to be made, and this is the main reason to move away from a lozenge bit like the Neu Schule Starter which is as kind as an egg butt snaffle, or kinder as there is no nut cracker action.
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So far you have told me that my daughter can't ride and that all of my bit choices are the worst I could use. I can't see anywhere that you have actually given any constructive advice at all.
 
Your pony sounds very similar to my 14.2 whizzy pony. She came to us in a Pelham but chomped on it constantly. We changed her to a snaffle with a roller but she still chomped on it. Finally an instructor recommended the Hilary Vernon loose ring, rounded Mullen as she has a very fleshy tongue. She goes beautifully in this but is very strong hunting or X Country. So I use a Hilary Vernon dalehead now for fast work in company.
 
Jumping back a tiny bit - even if your daughter's hands could cope with two sets of reins you're not allowed to use a pelham with two reins for pony club - you have to use roundings.

Obviously the bit has to suit the pony but a kimblewick is a good possibility. We used one for a sec A ex mounted games pony who had two paces - fast and flat out! Wilkies are a popular choice in PC - but I have to confess not my favourite. If the mare has a tendency to drop behind the bit that can make it worse - and a horse with its nose on its chest is a challenge to stop in any circumstances! A tom thumb can be effective for those with smaller mouths.

It is worth speaking to the Bit Bank and there is such a wide range of bits available now. Plus you can trial a bit for up to 30 days before buying it. Saves you from accumulating what I used to call my "naughty pony bit bag" a fair selection of pretty much anything in common use then (Before NS!) that we had tried over the years and over the ponies.
 
My D came with a french link and although she never tanked off she was always pulling and trying to go faster. I changed her to a kimblewick and the pulling has stopped completely. The nice thing about a kimblewick is that the curb only comes in to play when you need it and allows you to have light hands the rest of the time so you don't get in to any kind of battle with them. And that's the thing with welshies as you've probably found....you really don't want to get in to a battle with them and trying to hold them back can just make them anxious and upset. Before you know it they're using all that pent up energy to nap or buck or rear instead!

I always planned to go back to a french link eventually but I have to say that at the age of 24 she is still rather...um...jolly!

:)
 
My old D went very well in a Kimblewick. If you like the hanging cheek though you could try a different mouthpiece with the same cheeks? My boy has a mullen mouth hanging cheek for 95% of his work but he also has a waterford one for more exciting stuff. You may not want to go as far as a waterford but you could try a different mouthpiece?
 
callisto said:
I bought a new pony just before Christmas for my 11yo daughter. New pony is 14.1 Welsh D type mare, very green (much greener than expected or sold as) and spooky but very sweet natured, talented and starting to get the idea.

Pony came with a standard eggbutt snaffle which I changed to a hanging cheek French link. She goes beautifully in this in the school, but there are braking issues when cantering in open country. She has a flash noseband and running martingale. Daughter has good hands but not yet established independent seat.

I ride the pony regularly and for me I would keep her in the hanging cheek, but she can be strong when cantering (and has a super-charged engine so is much, much faster than daughters 13hh pony) and my daughter just isn't strong enough to cope.

Pony has a fat tongue in a little mouth.
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Instead of getting mixed advice from loads of people, I would contact the bit bank or bit hire. So you can have bits to try before you buy, and they are great for advice too. Here you will get so many personal choices you will get conffuzzled.
 
callisto said:
So far you have told me that my daughter can't ride and that all of my bit choices are the worst I could use. I can't see anywhere that you have actually given any constructive advice at all.
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Sorry, you told us that your daughter can't ride this pony [no independent seat], and that you can hold the pony but that she can't.
You have mentioned a number of bits, and I have suggested that your ideas on bitting a pony are not the same as mine. How anyone can be expected to make anything other than a few suggestions without seeing the problem is beyond me., others have made suggestions, I have nothing to add.
You are paying people to instruct the child, but she is still struggling with the basics, I suggest you sort the problem out with an experienced BHS II or above. Very often the RS instructors who give lessons to kids have limited experience, they are OK to cope with beginners on RS horses, but have limited outside experience, which means your child is learning the same thing every week, and not progressing.
You daughters first pony may have carried her round a 85cm and won rosettes galore, but that does not always mean your daughter is a good rider, it often means she has a good pony.
You can try half a dozen bits and you may find one which suits your purpose.
If the pony is green, then it needs to learn to respond to the aids, that must be the way to go, surely.
Or phone the pony club secretary and find out what they suggest.
Alternatively, find a pony which is better suited to your child's ambitions.
Worse case scenario is that one day, she just gives up riding because it is not fun any more.
 
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Exploding Chestnuts said:
Sorry, you told us that your daughter can't ride this pony [no independent seat], and that you can hold the pony but that she can't.
You have mentioned a number of bits, and I have suggested that your ideas on bitting a pony are not the same as mine. How anyone can be expected to make anything other than a few suggestions without seeing the problem is beyond me., others have made suggestions, I have nothing to add.
You are paying people to instruct the child, but she is still struggling with the basics, I suggest you sort the problem out with an experienced BHS II or above. Very often the RS instructors who give lessons to kids have limited experience, they are OK to cope with beginners on RS horses, but have limited outside experience, which means your child is learning the same thing every week, and not progressing.
You daughters first pony may have carried her round a 85cm and won rosettes galore, but that does not always mean your daughter is a good rider, it often means she has a good pony.
You can try half a dozen bits and you may find one which suits your purpose.
If the pony is green, then it needs to learn to respond to the aids, that must be the way to go, surely.
Or phone the pony club secretary and find out what they suggest.
Alternatively, find a pony which is better suited to your child's ambitions.
Worse case scenario is that one day, she just gives up riding because it is not fun any more.
Click to expand...

Ouch
 
Exploding Chestnuts said:
Sorry, you told us that your daughter can't ride this pony [no independent seat], and that you can hold the pony but that she can't.
You have mentioned a number of bits, and I have suggested that your ideas on bitting a pony are not the same as mine. How anyone can be expected to make anything other than a few suggestions without seeing the problem is beyond me., others have made suggestions, I have nothing to add.
You are paying people to instruct the child, but she is still struggling with the basics, I suggest you sort the problem out with an experienced BHS II or above. Very often the RS instructors who give lessons to kids have limited experience, they are OK to cope with beginners on RS horses, but have limited outside experience, which means your child is learning the same thing every week, and not progressing.
You daughters first pony may have carried her round a 85cm and won rosettes galore, but that does not always mean your daughter is a good rider, it often means she has a good pony.
You can try half a dozen bits and you may find one which suits your purpose.
If the pony is green, then it needs to learn to respond to the aids, that must be the way to go, surely.
Or phone the pony club secretary and find out what they suggest.
Alternatively, find a pony which is better suited to your child's ambitions.
Worse case scenario is that one day, she just gives up riding because it is not fun any more.
Click to expand...

Goodness, are you always such a bitch or has it been a bad day at the office?
 
callisto said:
Goodness, are you always such a bitch or has it been a bad day at the office?
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There is no magic wand, sorry, I have ridden over a 1000 horses, started breaking ponies age 12, never had one that I could not stop, though some have tried....., its not about strength, its about technique, there are many riders far better than me, I have never been a good rider, but nearly always "in control"
 
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