Advice needed please - awful situation - strangles

antigone

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I would very much appreciate thoughts on how I should proceed in what is a horrible situation.

Until June of this year I had two lovely cobs- one ridden and one retired. Sadly the retired mare had to be pts. This was not sudden and I had time to arrange to adopt a rescue pony (from a well known charity) as the geldings new companion. She was a delight and all was well until September when she was slightly unwell but recovered within 24hrs. Seen by vet and illness thought to be related to recent dental work. Dentist said she had not had her teeth done for years.

Two weeks later my gelding became very unwell - noisy breathing, high temperature but no swellings/discharge. He did not improve and was subsequently scoped and diagnosed with strangles. The rescue pony's blood test as also positive. His lymph nodes were enormous and he had to be admitted for an emergency tracheostomy. His new friend went with him. She was also scoped and her gutteral pouches were found to be full of chondroids. She had surgery to help clear this.

To cut a very long and sad story short he is home but still has his tracheostomy in place. He cannot breath without it. The lymph nodes on his right side are still enormous and there is no sign that abscesses will burst soon. The temporary trachy is getting scarred and will not be useable much longer. As time goes on I am told it becomes less likely that there will be a burst and he may have the swelling long term. So the only answer for him is a permanent trachy BUT he will probably continue to be a strangles carrier. With his tube in he is relatively well and enjoying life in the field.

On top of all this the pony companion has "reactivated" her strangles and also has a lot of mucus in her upper airway. She is very unwell today.

I just don't know what to do. If she gets worse she could go back to hospital for further surgery but there is no guarantee that this will make her "clean" or cure her. She gets stressed very easily and I would hate her to become so upset again. It is not really a money issue but she is uninsured as the charity rather unhelpfully put her age as unknown in the passport. I was told she was 6. If she stays here and I have to have her put to sleep the vet has suggested that the gelding could live here alone. (Obviously I cannot get another companion). The gelding has never been good on his own but he is more independent since he lost his long term friend in the summer.

If the crunch comes should I try it or should I just have him pts too? It seems so wrong to do this to him when he is relatively well but is it fair to keep him alone? I love him dearly and cannot imagine my life without him but this has to be for him, not me. I have them both at home, we don't compete and could live with not hacking out/ visiting friends horses anymore.

Any opinions brutal or otherwise appreciated. sorry for such a long post.
 
I wouldn't keep any horse alive in those circstances and would have my beloved mare pts rather than live with the permanent tracheotomy. Very sorry for your predicament :(
 
What a ruddy awful situation, I'm very sad for you. If the trach will not be useable for much longer, what are the options? I think, if it were me, I might PTS both, but I'm not you and only you can decide.

I love your username, but it's very poignant.
 
So very sorry hunny. Sounds like you've done all that can be done.

If they were mine I'd have them both put to sleep. But, that's what I'd do, you know your horses and yourself and you have to do what's right for all of you, with the horses coming first.
 
Thank you both for taking the time to reply. Cinnamontoast he would have to have a permanent trachy - 1hr operation, general anaesthetic (in field or hospital). These are also irreversible so if his abscesses did eventually burst he would always have the trachy whether he needed it or not. He is about to turn 18, has mild COPD and mild arthritis in hocks/SI, too. I suppose I just don't ant to face the truth. Who would?
 
If the trach will not be useable for much longer, what are the options?

I got the impression that the temporary trach would not be useable much longer but that a permanent one would be an option.

I am sorry for the situation you have ended up in OP. It sounds like an impossible decision.
 
So Sorry OP. You have asked a very difficult question and you are doing absolutely the right thing by asking it. In your position and without the emotional attachment you clearly have I would have agreed with the others that PTS is sadly the best option. But we're not in your shoes. Whatever you choose will be right because you cared enough to ask the question. <<Hugs>>
 
How unlucky you have been. I wouldn't want to keep a pony on its own, and at the back of my mind would be the 'strangles police' who whip themselves into hysteria if they found out you had a carrier. What does the charity say? I would try to think I had done my best and let go of them both, otherwise you will be left with a constant worry with no end in sight. Another hug from me.
 
Thanks all of you, you are very kind. The charity is keeping very quiet and I have had no contact from them or about a month but it was my boy and not the pony who as initially very poorly. She is not even mine yet as the adoption is not complete but I had permission to pts when we thought he was going to die and I don't think there would be a problem with that. I must admit I have felt quite abandoned by them. They clearly do not want her back. Poor little thing - she is such a sweetie. I would say to anyone considering adoption that you should get them tested. I didn't and am paying the ultimate price for that. I clearly did not know enough about strangles. That is one reason I went to a well established charity - to be safer. Not their fault either, though, is it?

Yes, honetpot I am sure tongues would wag if I kept a carrier but I am very careful about clothing and footwear and handwashing and don't visit other horses now. Its more about his long term welfare if kept alone.

Does anyone know if I could vaccinate a potential companion or is that just ridiculous? Don't know which end is up at the moment
 
I am very sorry to hear of your predicament. There was a vaccine some years back but it proved to be ineffective and was taken off the market.

I think in your shoes I would have both PTS to be honest. Your gelding sounds like he's been unlucky and would you really want to put him through more treatment? Would the charity have the mare back as the adoption is not yet complete?

I hope that you find the solution that suits you and the animals best interests.
 
I am so terribly sorry for the situation you are in, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Only you can decide but for what it is worth I would give the temporary one as long as possible and when that is no more use and if the swelling is still there I would PTS both.
 
What a horrible situation for you.
I would have them put to sleep,from what you have described. It doesn't sound as if surgery would be in the little mare's best interest and your much loved boy has been through the mill already. I'm so sorry if this is not the kind of opinion you want to hear, but is is just an opinion.
 
Gosh what a horrible situation to be in! I would have both pts, I would never keep a horse on its own or one that had to have a permanent trachy. Big hugs and good luck with whatever option you go with!
 
Terrible situation and the charity well they must think it's going to cost them money and a lot of the well known ones run as businesses rather than rescue charities. Anyway I think I would pts but it's a very hard decision for you to make and it's easy to say when your on the outside.
 
Oh how awful and what rotten luck. It's certainly gives one something to think about (I'm thinking of a rescue) so thank you for pointing out pitfalls although I know your case is rare.

FWIW I too would PTS but it's your decision and no-one can berate you for what you decide to do.

I'm so sorry x
 
I know the Animal Health Trust have done a lot of work on strangles, I wonder if its worth seeing if they will take a referral for some advice. Then at least you can say to the charity you have had the best advice, to be honest if she is not signed over I would be worried they would back track. I have loaned out ponies and I would never leave a loaner in this situation, one died out on loan and I paid all the bills and did all the organising.
http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/strangles.html
 
I have nothing to add from what the others have posted.
I'm very sorry you're in this situation. I'm sure you'll make the best choice.
Thinking of you and sending hugs
 
You are in a terrible position but my question would be "does the gelding have a quality of life" that to me is the only question that matters. Will he cope on his own? no one can answer that question until he is on his own. He may cope well, who knows or he may not. I had a terribly bonded gelding whose companion died. For 3 days he was a nightmare but after that he did cope albeit not alone. So on the mental part I would allow a bit of time. On the clinical part I would ask if he was suffering. If he had a reasonably quality of life I would let him get on with it. That is horrible as it does prolong the agony for you but personally I would err on the side of caution and let the gelding prove he was no good alone and he did not have a quality of life due to his clinical symptoms. I would allow at least a month or possibly 2 for things to get sorted with him which would basically be him making the decision. No one could blame you for whatever you did in the situation.
 
Thank you all, once again. I know I will have to make a decision and you are all just confirming what I was thinking anyway. It is helpful to have the views of knowledgeable horsey people who don't know us personally as it is more objective. Thank you honetpot for the aht idea. I think the vets would be a bit sensitive about involving experts from outside the practice but I will ring the aht anyway. I should add that the vets are from a specialist equine hospital rather than a general practice.

I am worried that the charity will backtrack too but I have to trust them. How kind of you to meet the health costs for your loan pony. At the end of the day the charity does have some duty of care towards us even if they refuse to acknowledge it. I am not really interested having a go at them in any way as what is done is done for us and to make a fuss would just stop lots of lovely healthy horses from being rehomed, but I would like to stop this from happening to anyone else.
 
I wouldn't keep one with a permanent trach sorry :(. What a horrible situation, whatever you decide to do I would make sure you tell the charity even if they don't seem interested.
 
Thank you or your thoughts. This is one of the hardest things about it. His temporary trachy doesn't really bother him - it upsets me but not him. I do worry about how he would cope with the operation but I am sure that if he coped with the anaesthetic then the trachy would not bother him. I am sure he is a bit uncomfortable from the swelling in his neck but he can and is eating his head off and running about as usual. I don't need to restrict his grazing at this time of year so he is a happy boy at the moment.
 
:-( I can't see how your horse looks, so can't give an opinion on pts or not, as for a companion, what about a different animal that isn't subject to strangles problems ?
 
What do your vets advise? Has the rescue mare given your one strangles? I am so very sorry for you with this unusual and difficult situation!

yes he got it from her. vets happy to operate on both just not sure it is the right thing to put her through that again/put him through a general anaesthetic/keep him on his on if she has to be pts
 
:-( I can't see how your horse looks, so can't give an opinion on pts or not, as for a companion, what about a different animal that isn't subject to strangles problems ?
he looks great apart from the slight swelling behind his jaw and a hole in his neck. he is glossy and bossy. Not sure there is a horse that would not get strangles - I understand that if a horse has had it they don't necessarily maintain a high level of immunity and can get it again. I would love to be wrong. I think it would be immoral to take a risk with another horses life to say nothing of the suffering
 
:-( I can't see how your horse looks, so can't give an opinion on pts or not, as for a companion, what about a different animal that isn't subject to strangles problems ?
That's a good idea we have goats and they are always in with the horses. Easy to keep and very sociable.
 
So sorry to hear this, what rotten luck. :(

Can I ask if your boy is having intensive anti-inflammatory/antibiotic tx at this stage? Has poulticing or lancing been tried/suggested?

Personally, I don't think I would opt for a permanent tracheostomy in this case but I'm not the one in this situation.

Regarding the mare, shame the surgery to remove the chondroids doesn't appear to have cleared the infection.

It is impossible to predict whether any horse will develop immunity/become a carrier.

I've thought about what to say for quite a while and thought of many circumstances to consider, sadly my honest opinion is to have both PTS.

Big hugs, this must be awful for you, yet you have your head screwed on and thinking of other horses not just your own. Kudos, not everyone can be as selfless.
 
So sorry to hear this, what rotten luck. :(

Can I ask if your boy is having intensive anti-inflammatory/antibiotic tx at this stage?

He is on Danilon mainly to control his temperature. His temp keeps spiking and that is when he becomes unwell

Has poulticing or lancing been tried/suggested?

The swelling is in the retropharyngeal (?) nodes and vet said poulticing would be ineffective. Apparently the surgery to lance them is too dangerous because of the proximity to nerves and major blood vessels

Personally, I don't think I would opt for a permanent tracheostomy in this case but I'm not the one in this situation.

Regarding the mare, shame the surgery to remove the chondroids doesn't appear to have cleared the infection.

It is impossible to predict whether any horse will develop immunity/become a carrier.

I've thought about what to say for quite a while and thought of many circumstances to consider, sadly my honest opinion is to have both PTS.

Big hugs, this must be awful for you, yet you have your head screwed on and thinking of other horses not just your own. Kudos, not everyone can be as selfless.

Not sure I can bear it but I think that might be the right thing to do. I couldn't bear it if his last days were spent anxious and alone, either
 
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