Advice needed please - awful situation - strangles

Is this a big charity? I would not accept them being quiet on you. At the very least they should be paying the bills for their pony.

Feel very sorry for you op, an unbelievable nightmare by the sounds of it.

I wouldn't have any more operations done.

The horses in this are lucky to have you, it's you who will have to bear the pain in this scenario.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Is this a big charity? I would not accept them being quiet on you. At the very least they should be paying the bills for their pony.

Feel very sorry for you op, an unbelievable nightmare by the sounds of it.

I wouldn't have any more operations done.

The horses in this are lucky to have you, it's you who will have to bear the pain in this scenario.
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Yes it is one of the biggest, believe it or not. The pony's vets bill was well over £1k and I did ask if they could contribute but they refused. It does clearly say on the probation agreement that I am responsible for all vets bills and that the charity are in not liable for any financial consequences relating to the adoption. The real cost to me here is not financial, though. And all they have said is that it is "unfortunate"
 
I do feel for you OP and I don't know what I would do in your situation. I have had to have 2 PTS this year.One was clear cut, the other less so (could probably have struggled on for longer but I felt it was prolonging the inevitable ). It is the hardest decision to make. I would see what vet says about long term/quality of life for both.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Is this a big charity? I would not accept them being quiet on you. At the very least they should be paying the bills for their pony.

Feel very sorry for you op, an unbelievable nightmare by the sounds of it.

I wouldn't have any more operations done.

The horses in this are lucky to have you, it's you who will have to bear the pain in this scenario.
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Agree with you but thunk about it if all charities paid for vets bills etc they would go under so wouldn't be able to operate - unfortunately for people like OP.

Awful situation it really is.
 
Princess16 said:
Agree with you but thunk about it if all charities paid for vets bills etc they would go under so wouldn't be able to operate - unfortunately for people like OP.

Awful situation it really is.
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Agree with this, too. If you take on a horse or pony without a good, known veterinary history you are taking a bit of a chance wherever they come from. It just didn't occur to me that it could have such terrible consequences for my lovely cob and therein lies the lesson. The pony is a little better today so here we go on the next loop of the rollercoaster.....
 
If nothing else good comes of this situation OP at least you have highlighted the benefits of a strangles blood test before adopting a horse from a charity. I imagine that they are more likely to be carriers as they will not have had proper care in the past.
 
Sorry op, nothing of use to add. Just wanted to offer my sympathy - what an awful situation to find yourself in. The emotional and financial cost of 'doing the right thing' and adopting from a charity has had huge consequences for you and the horses.
I am surprised that a large charity wouldn't test for strangles anyway - before introducing to their existing horses and before rehoming to avoid such a situation. This thread has certainly been a learning curve for me.
Good luck op.
 
Evie91 said:
Sorry op, nothing of use to add. Just wanted to offer my sympathy - what an awful situation to find yourself in. The emotional and financial cost of 'doing the right thing' and adopting from a charity has had huge consequences for you and the horses.
I am surprised that a large charity wouldn't test for strangles anyway - before introducing to their existing horses and before rehoming to avoid such a situation. This thread has certainly been a learning curve for me.
Good luck op.
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Strangles test are not cheap!!!
 
antigone said:
Yes it is one of the biggest, believe it or not. The pony's vets bill was well over £1k and I did ask if they could contribute but they refused. It does clearly say on the probation agreement that I am responsible for all vets bills and that the charity are in not liable for any financial consequences relating to the adoption. The real cost to me here is not financial, though. And all they have said is that it is "unfortunate"
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Is there nothing in the agreement about you being given a healthy horse? I thought that was the point of taking a horse from a charity, it would have undergone a rehabilitation of some sort where it was brought back to health and perhaps given some training. Otherwise you may as well just go to the nearest auction and pick something up for £50 if all you want is a companion horse and don't mind what it is or what state it's in. The horse they gave you was ill, had it been in isolation for a short while it would have become apparent it had strangles. So did they not isolate it when they took it on? Or did their own disease prevention measures fail and the horse, having previously been healthy, caught strangles from another in their care? Unless I'm reading it all wrong and the horse didn't come to you with strangles? If it did, I just don't see how they can get out of paying the vet bill for it and I know the financial loss is the least of your worries, but they should be paying for the vet bills and (probable) loss of your other horse too if all this occurred as a result of the charities neglegence.

FWIW I agree with the other posters that PTS is probably the best option for both the horses. I say that as someone who doesn't operate though, so they wouldn't have made it this far if they'd been mine. The tube (is that right?) in the throat doesn't bother me. I had a race horse with that who was fine, just couldn't gallop on all weather surfaces any more so went to be an amateur show jumper with the groom. But I wouldn't keep any horse alone. If it was happy with the company of another animal I think that would be a good option. Reading the other health issues the horse has though, be honest with yourself about how much these affect quality of life. Are the strangles complications just a problem in their own right, ones that could maybe be overcome, or are they the "last straw" in a horse that's already struggling/has a limited quality of life? If I was in your shoes, that would be the deciding factor I think.
 
antigone said:
Yes it is one of the biggest, believe it or not. The pony's vets bill was well over £1k and I did ask if they could contribute but they refused. It does clearly say on the probation agreement that I am responsible for all vets bills and that the charity are in not liable for any financial consequences relating to the adoption. The real cost to me here is not financial, though. And all they have said is that it is "unfortunate"
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"Unfortunate" seems like a quite flippant response to such a disastrous and sad occurrence. I would hope that they would at least review their practices and offer a full and frank apology for what has happened because to be honest, it would be more responsible of them to pts carriers, than risk the lives of healthy, privately owned horses. If the point of rescuing horses is to save lives, then they have failed miserably.

I can't offer advice as to your predicament, OP. I've never been in your position and can't begin to imagine what I would do. I did have ponies who did not always have companions when I was younger and also knew horses who coped quite well too. There seemed to be less emphasis on the importance of keeping horses in company back then. I'm not saying it isn't important but a lack of a companion would not be a deciding factor in whether to pts, for me. Health would be and you absolutely have the right and responsibility to draw the line whenever you feel is appropriate.
 
antigone said:
Yes it is one of the biggest, believe it or not. The pony's vets bill was well over £1k and I did ask if they could contribute but they refused. It does clearly say on the probation agreement that I am responsible for all vets bills and that the charity are in not liable for any financial consequences relating to the adoption. The real cost to me here is not financial, though. And all they have said is that it is "unfortunate"
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They are very fortunate that you have been responsible and taken proper care of the pony, many people would have taken it back and left the charity to deal with things, saying you have been unfortunate is a flippant uncaring response, I think if I were in your position I would not spend any more on the rescue, it may sound heartless but it really is not worth getting in deeper emotionally or financially, you need those reserves to cope with your own horse whatever your decision.
 
COldNag said:
I do feel for you OP and I don't know what I would do in your situation. I have had to have 2 PTS this year.One was clear cut, the other less so (could probably have struggled on for longer but I felt it was prolonging the inevitable ). It is the hardest decision to make. I would see what vet says about long term/quality of life for both.
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Thank you. I am sorry you have had an awful time, too.
 
COldNag said:
I do feel for you OP and I don't know what I would do in your situation. I have had to have 2 PTS this year.One was clear cut, the other less so (could probably have struggled on for longer but I felt it was prolonging the inevitable ). It is the hardest decision to make. I would see what vet says about long term/quality of life for both.
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The vet seems to think that a permanent trachy would present no problems - in fact it would be less bother than the temporary one. I am concerned about the operation, though - an hour long anaesthetic does seem a long time - I need to discuss this further with the vet. The other problem is, of course, that he may become a carrier. I can keep him away from other horses as he is at home but then there is the problem if his always being alone. He is a lovely, easy going, friendly horse but he is not a brave one and does love to have friends.
 
Evie91 said:
Sorry op, nothing of use to add. Just wanted to offer my sympathy - what an awful situation to find yourself in. The emotional and financial cost of 'doing the right thing' and adopting from a charity has had huge consequences for you and the horses.
I am surprised that a large charity wouldn't test for strangles anyway - before introducing to their existing horses and before rehoming to avoid such a situation. This thread has certainly been a learning curve for me.
Good luck op.
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Didn't occur to me either, sadly
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Is there nothing in the agreement about you being given a healthy horse? I thought that was the point of taking a horse from a charity, it would have undergone a rehabilitation of some sort where it was brought back to health and perhaps given some training. Otherwise you may as well just go to the nearest auction and pick something up for £50 if all you want is a companion horse and don't mind what it is or what state it's in. The horse they gave you was ill, had it been in isolation for a short while it would have become apparent it had strangles. So did they not isolate it when they took it on? Or did their own disease prevention measures fail and the horse, having previously been healthy, caught strangles from another in their care? Unless I'm reading it all wrong and the horse didn't come to you with strangles? If it did, I just don't see how they can get out of paying the vet bill for it and I know the financial loss is the least of your worries, but they should be paying for the vet bills and (probable) loss of your other horse too if all this occurred as a result of the charities neglegence.

FWIW I agree with the other posters that PTS is probably the best option for both the horses. I say that as someone who doesn't operate though, so they wouldn't have made it this far if they'd been mine. The tube (is that right?) in the throat doesn't bother me. I had a race horse with that who was fine, just couldn't gallop on all weather surfaces any more so went to be an amateur show jumper with the groom. But I wouldn't keep any horse alone. If it was happy with the company of another animal I think that would be a good option. Reading the other health issues the horse has though, be honest with yourself about how much these affect quality of life. Are the strangles complications just a problem in their own right, ones that could maybe be overcome, or are they the "last straw" in a horse that's already struggling/has a limited quality of life? If I was in your shoes, that would be the deciding factor I think.
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The agreement does not guarantee a healthy horse - they specifically say that the costs relating to any condition whether known or otherwise must be met by the adopter. fair enough but I do think that strangles is different as it doesn't only affect the rescue horse.

The pony as a silent carrier. No signs for the first 2 1/2 months and only confirmed when she was scoped and her gutteral pouches were found to be full of chondroids. The vet thought she had had them for months and months - she had been in the care of the charity for a year so someone wasn't paying attention.

With respect to his quality of life, this is the hard thing. I think he is fine. On his Danilon he behaves normally. He is bright and happy to have his grass at this time of year. He has a whole field to roam in, a field shelter for when the weather is rough, lots of love and attention and he doesn't have to do a stroke of work for any of it at the moment. His COPD means he is best living out (which he prefers anyway) and it doesn't affect him. His arthritis means he isn't worked hard or jumped but that doesn't bother me or him. He is still capable of lots of things. The other problem is that as amimal/people relationships go we are very close. I have had him for 7 years and we know each other inside out. It would feel like a betrayal to put him to sleep.
 
Orca said:
"Unfortunate" seems like a quite flippant response to such a disastrous and sad occurrence. I would hope that they would at least review their practices and offer a full and frank apology for what has happened because to be honest, it would be more responsible of them to pts carriers, than risk the lives of healthy, privately owned horses. If the point of rescuing horses is to save lives, then they have failed miserably.

I can't offer advice as to your predicament, OP. I've never been in your position and can't begin to imagine what I would do. I did have ponies who did not always have companions when I was younger and also knew horses who coped quite well too. There seemed to be less emphasis on the importance of keeping horses in company back then. I'm not saying it isn't important but a lack of a companion would not be a deciding factor in whether to pts, for me. Health would be and you absolutely have the right and responsibility to draw the line whenever you feel is appropriate.
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Thank you. I hope they review procedures too. To be fair, if they had known they would have pts
 
antigone said:
Yes it is one of the biggest, believe it or not. The pony's vets bill was well over £1k and I did ask if they could contribute but they refused. It does clearly say on the probation agreement that I am responsible for all vets bills and that the charity are in not liable for any financial consequences relating to the adoption. The real cost to me here is not financial, though. And all they have said is that it is "unfortunate"
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In that case I would be telling them you will be going to the horse press with your story. This is at their discretion. They gave you an animal which was seriously ill and I hardly think they will want it back. Not only that they have infected your beloved horse with a life ending condition. They should be falling over themselves to pay these vet bills for you. I would write them a letter setting out the costs and the situation and requesting that they do the right thing and cover the bills. I've work for charities most of my working life. They will not want this getting out. You've been very fair minded with them in your thread here, but this is a terrible situation and their policies need to be looked at to prevent it happening to someone else. I would ask them how they will be ensuring this too.
 
Horrible situation, really feel for you. If the temporary tracheostomy doesn't work, I would put both to sleep.
My thoughts would be a day to early rather than to late. A hard position though.
 
I am not sure if a blood test would reveal if a horse was a carrier. i thought they needed to flush out the guttural pouches to establish that but maybe i am wrong? Anyhow it is really awful that a charity should hand over a strangles carrier and leave you in this terrible situation. I haven't heard of horses living with permanent tracheostomies either but if the horse is happy enough then...............
 
Princess16 said:
Agree with you but thunk about it if all charities paid for vets bills etc they would go under so wouldn't be able to operate - unfortunately for people like OP.

Awful situation it really is.
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Actually most charities have millions sitting waiting to find something to spend it on, especially the big ones. I have worked for two fairly big players for many years and I can assure you in a situation like this if the right buttons are pushed they will do the right thing.

They have rehomed a horse with a serious, life threatening highly contagious disease and it is probably going to finish off the OPs horse. If they don't have suitable policies in place to avoid this (and clearly they don't!) what's to say they aren't spreading strangles all over the country via their rehoming centre, which will have staff, visitors, members of the public. You name it. It is a PR disaster and they certainly shouldn't be ignoring the op.
 
I am so so sorry to hear of your terribly sad situation. If you do go ahead with the permanent Trachy for your boy you could maybe get a sheep or two for companions for him they cannot catch equine strangles or maybe find a horse or pony who has previously had strangles and had clear gutteral pouch tests as I believe horses who have had strangles recovered and are not carriers have a strong immunity to getting it again
Good luck in whatever you decide not an easy situation and dreadful lack of support from the rescue place
X
 
antigone said:
The vet seems to think that a permanent trachy would present no problems - in fact it would be less bother than the temporary one. I am concerned about the operation, though - an hour long anaesthetic does seem a long time - I need to discuss this further with the vet. The other problem is, of course, that he may become a carrier. I can keep him away from other horses as he is at home but then there is the problem if his always being alone. He is a lovely, easy going, friendly horse but he is not a brave one and does love to have friends.
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We have a mare that started coughing in feb this year also 5 other liveries, the vet said it was a virus 4 stopped coughing ours got worse and was put on antibiotics which made no difference she was getting worse . We decided to change vet and have her scoped ,new vet new medicine but the next morning she could not eat, the vet scoped again to find her airway almost closed so she had an emergency trachy to secure her airway ,lightly sedated in her stable no problem .I did query abscess as there was a swelling some where beyond the larynx,vet came back next morning and fitted the permanent tube which we thought would be in forever
Vet thought better to have her in the hospital for a few days ,the abscess burst on route ,so 12 days later the tube was removed and all healed within 3 weeks .
I think the horse coped very well she had the tube removed twice a day cleaned and replaced with no sedation ,the mare is 20 yrs old .
OP why would your horse need a GA to fit a permanent tube? and is there not a risk to other horses taking a horse with strangles in to an equine hospital . Also a strangles carrier can be tested and treated ,so your horse could have company again in the future. Fingers crossed for your horse .
 
Equine hospitals would be well practised at barrier/isolation nursing techniques etc. The same with parvo in small animal hospitals etc.
 
That is so sad.

I know any horse can be a carrier and there is always going to be a risk when taking on a new horse but you can blood test for strangles and it looks like a blood test is available that can help identify strangles carriers. http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/Testing_for_Strangles_Explained.pdf

I would have thought if it was one of the big charities they would routinely blood test for strangles all new horses that come into the sanctuaries as a big strangles outbreak at the sanctuaries could cost them a fortune in treatment and because I am guessing that a lot of the rescued horses may come from yards or places with no bio security.

I do hope your cob makes a good recovery and does not become a carrier and can have a suitable companion.
 
Firstly, i am so sorry about the situation you are in,

From what I have understood , to summarise, you have a very much loved 17 year old ridden cob who has developed strangles following exposure from a recently acquired rescue companion mare who is a carrier.
Your cob already has copd and arthritis in hocks/si joints.
He currently has a temporary tracheostomy due to extremely swollen lymph nodes affecting his ability to breathe but this cannot stay in much longer and if the swelling does not decrease/abcesses burst, his would require an irreversible permanent tracheostomy and may always be a strangles carrier. He is already on danilon.
To compound matters, the companion mare (uninsured) who has already had recent surgery is quite unwell with strangles and may require put to sleep imminently leaving you with a gelding "who has never been good on his own" and the difficulty of getting a new companion if the gelding does turn out to be a carrier resistant to treatment.
Currently, your gelding does not seem distressed by the temporary tracheostomy and is living out and appears well altho is on danilon.


I hope i have got the above correct ^^^ Just trying to think of options.

Regarding the mare, she sounds very unwell at the moment and has already had surgery. It does sound like the kindest thing to do if the only option is more surgery is to pts if she is suffering and further surgery is unlikely to help her. This will however, will leave your gelding alone but you have to do what is best for her not your gelding if she is suffering.

In terms of your gelding, all round best case scenario, although it sounds unlikely, would be that your geldings swelling would go down before permanent tracheostomy is required and could have treatment to eliminate him being a carrier.

Can your vet advise you how long roughly you have got until you have to make a decision about a permanent tracheostomy, ie days? weeks?
Has your vet said he will always be a carrier? Why can he not have treatment to eradicate?

So you have option of permanent tracheostomy but horse is alone for rest of his life or depending what vet says about him being a carrier, a horse with permanent tracheostomy and horse has a companion. (altho he may have to be alone for unknown number of weeks whilst strangles is eradicated)

Having a permanent tracheostomy will mean he is more at risk of respiratory infections and he already has a respiratory disorder - copd.
There is also a chance the tracheostomy could become dislodged/blocked while the horse is in the field and if the swelling in his lymph nodes is still present it would mean that he would not be able to breath and may suffocate.

Doing a quick google search, it seems there are horses out there who are leading long lives with permanent tracheostomies so it can be done.

If it was me, i would not have a horse or any animal with a permanent tracheostomy and I would not have any horse alone, however he is not my boy and it must be heartbreaking. I do not envy your decision, you obviously love your horses very much.
 
antigone said:
With respect to his quality of life, this is the hard thing. I think he is fine. On his Danilon he behaves normally. He is bright and happy to have his grass at this time of year. He has a whole field to roam in, a field shelter for when the weather is rough, lots of love and attention and he doesn't have to do a stroke of work for any of it at the moment. His COPD means he is best living out (which he prefers anyway) and it doesn't affect him. His arthritis means he isn't worked hard or jumped but that doesn't bother me or him. He is still capable of lots of things. The other problem is that as amimal/people relationships go we are very close. I have had him for 7 years and we know each other inside out. It would feel like a betrayal to put him to sleep.
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Then if you're happy to operate and have the funds to do so, I'd go with that. He doesn't sound as if he needs to be PTS yet on health grounds. You could try him with other animals as companions and see how he goes. There's a risk of the operation going wrong I presume as you you seem worried about it, but what do you have to lose? Nothing that I can see. If you PTS he dies, if you operate and it goes wrong he dies. All you'd lose is the money, so if you don't mind that then go for it. If he becomes unhappy living without other horses and his quality of life is gone, you can PTS then knowing you did all you could. On the other hand, if you can't afford this operation then I don't see that you have anything to feel guilty for if you PTS, none of this situation is your fault, all you did was try to find him a suitable companion horse. He may not be ancient but has reached a fair age and had a happy life, that's a better life than some have had.

I'd go with FfionWinnie's suggestion of putting pressure on the charity too. I think it's disgraceful that you've ended up in this position. If you lose your original horse then you lose him and money won't bring him back. But what is the better position to be in: a few thousand pounds down and no horses, if you have to pay the vet bill; or a few thousand pounds down with a new healthy horse, if those responsible for causing the situation are made to pay the vet bill, enabling you to buy another horse? I realise you aren't thinking of a new horse at this moment in time and of course a new horse isn't a replacement emotionally for the current one, but as an outsider I can look to the future in a practical way which is why I mention it.
 
i would have thought charities would have been hot on the whole strangles thing. This pony who is a carrier may well have infected horses at the charity too if she was shedding the bacteria or whatever the phrase is.
 
I'm amazed the charity didn't pick up guttural pouch empyema - a well known sequela to strangles. To have chondroids long term is inadvisable as they will eventually (as in guttural pouch mycosis) rot the carotid artery, which passes adjacent to the g.p.

The pony in my avatar had chondroids/empyema but somehow cleared the g.p. herself. The vet at Leahurst was pretty amazed as the x-rays showed a comprehensively stuffed g.p., although not a chronic case as we were on it immediately. You can't not know as the breathing is affected and a foul discharge and cough will also be present. We were given a poor to hopeless prognosis but, after scoping and flushing, the vet felt confident there would be no recurrence and he was correct.

I'd be going back to the charity as in our case also, our other horses were affected to varying degrees and this was our pony who was borrowed and infected. I was NOT happy as we got left with the bills. Another pony loaned by this family also contracted strangles and from what I can gather also secondary infection which did actually result in her bleeding fatally out through her nose. Awful.

I would press the vets, having been given very much a worst case scenario and escaping unscathed.
 
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shergar said:
We have a mare that started coughing in feb this year also 5 other liveries, the vet said it was a virus 4 stopped coughing ours got worse and was put on antibiotics which made no difference she was getting worse . We decided to change vet and have her scoped ,new vet new medicine but the next morning she could not eat, the vet scoped again to find her airway almost closed so she had an emergency trachy to secure her airway ,lightly sedated in her stable no problem .I did query abscess as there was a swelling some where beyond the larynx,vet came back next morning and fitted the permanent tube which we thought would be in forever
Vet thought better to have her in the hospital for a few days ,the abscess burst on route ,so 12 days later the tube was removed and all healed within 3 weeks .
I think the horse coped very well she had the tube removed twice a day cleaned and replaced with no sedation ,the mare is 20 yrs old .
OP why would your horse need a GA to fit a permanent tube? and is there not a risk to other horses taking a horse with strangles in to an equine hospital . Also a strangles carrier can be tested and treated ,so your horse could have company again in the future. Fingers crossed for your horse .
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apparently the permanent trachy does not use a tube - they cut a new hole (cannot re-use the old one) and attach the tracheal lining to the outer tissues. It doesn't need cleaning the way the tube does so is better in many ways. My vet doesn't like to do them standing so he wold need a ga. With regard to his carrier status even with the new trachy he will still have a massive swelling in his throat which may not burst in the future. Because of this he may become a carrier. Cannot operate on the abscess as it is too close to major blood vessels and nerves. He could have the trachy done in hospital but I am reluctant because of the stress involved. I need to decide if it would be appropriate for him to have it done at all and then decide where. It is all so complicated.
 
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