Advice on 4 year olds behaviour

[Tansibel]

I'll start by saying this is my first young horse, my second horse ever, my old mare unfortunately damaged a tendon in the field and has now been retired.

I bought a 4 year old gelding in June last year, he was backed as a 3 year old and turned away then brought back into work before I bought him. He was described as very easy going and pretty much easy in any way but obviously very green. I've had him since June of last year and honestly can say until recently he was exactly as described. I've hacked him on busy roads, hacked both alone and in company, he was very green in the school and still needs lots of improvement but I'm having lessons once a fortnight and I'm trying my best to improve this, I've also boxed him to a farm ride in company and alone to unaffiliated dressage towards the end of the year, he's been easy on the ground and never any fuss in the stable.

This year unfortunately this good behaviour seems to be coming to an end, he had a growth spurt at the beginning of march to the point where my instructor could see the difference in his height between lessons, I don't know if this is related but his behaviour has changed since then. I took him to an arena hire alone mid march and he was so wired it was unreal, I was nearly dragged around the car park and looking back I shouldn't have got on however I thought a rider on may settle him, this ended up with him rearing and broncing after a couple of laps of the school, I hit the floor hard. I thought maybe the environment and being alone was too much for him, he was still his usual self at home. I took him to a second arena hire to an arena he knew with a nanny horse, he was fab the entire time. Next I tried another arena nearby for a trec clinic where he'd still be with two other horses and I'd be on the floor with him. He again got very very antsy, reared up multiple times at the venue usually whenever something passed or made noise outside. Up until then he was still always the same at home, the yard owner reported he had a squeal and a rear once as she fetched him in, I tried my best to replicate the conditions but he hasn't done that since. I hacked out with a friend the other day, he stood on a stick and spooked (happened multiple times before) but then he went up again and reared, as soon as he's back down he doesn't hold on to it and was fine to carry on. Today I gave him a bath (he was itching and really needed it), i've bathed him multiple times with 0 problems, he was absolutely fine to bath but I left him outside in the sun to dry and he started getting antsy again, I let him into his stable and went to grab a rug in case he was getting chilled, heard a squeal and turned around in time to see him go up in the stable.

He does the occasional head shake and squeal, he's not generally squealy with other horses, never seen him kick out at anything, he does pull grumpy faces and can be mouthy if asked to back up etc.

I'm at a bit of a loss, could it just be his age and he's testing boundarys (he'll be 5 in May), have I done something drastically wrong that's causing this? I feel like i've ruined him as he came as such a laid back horse, some days he seems absolutely fine other days I feel worried about doing anything with him in case he kicks off and starts rearing. He's had his saddle checked, back done, teeth done etc etc.

 

[Needtoretire]

The 'Kevin' stage. Can you get some professional help ?

 

[Gloi]

It's been a long winter is he getting plenty of turnout with a mate?

 

[Tansibel]

It's been a long winter is he getting plenty of turnout with a mate?

He's turned out in the day in at night, only been in with the high winds. He's been in 2 or 3 days at a time and been ridden straight after with 0 issues all through winter.

I am seeking professional help asap

 

[Melody Grey]

The Kevin stage was my first reaction too, though the reactivity and a lot of ‘in’ time might make ulcers a consideration? If he’s now out on the spring grass and is a bit tummy-ish, that could cause reactivity.

 

[honetpot]

With youngsters I think they all eventually get to the point where their brain can not cope with changes in their body or what the rider is asking them, and the ones that started out as compliant are often the least predictable. I always go back a step and if they are growing a lot leave off any work that is not in a straight lines, so hacking and turnout. They either get the fifth leg, or are spending so much time rebalancing themselves that its phyisically tiring.

 

[holeymoley]

I too thought teenage stage but then thinking back problems?

 

[Dave's Mam]

If he's having growth spurts could be uncomfortable with saddle being "not right", croup high can push it forwards, or just generally not feeling great?

 

[SEL]

Have you tested for tapeworm recently? I've had two runs of awful behaviour with my young cob and both times he came back with a high Equisal test - despite worming.

Another dose and gut support and we're back to normal

 

[Tansibel]

If he's having growth spurts could be uncomfortable with saddle being "not right", croup high can push it forwards, or just generally not feeling great?

Saddles been checked since this started, i had her out after my fall

 

[Tansibel]

Have you tested for tapeworm recently? I've had two runs of awful behaviour with my young cob and both times he came back with a high Equisal test - despite worming.

Another dose and gut support and we're back to normal

He has been tested and treated twice last month

 

[dougpeg]

It's often worth getting the vet out for a full lameness workup with a behavioual change. The mouthyness could be teeth related, cheekyness and/or stress related.
Physical causes ruled out it could be a case of spring grass combined with him feeling stronger and more confident in himself. Mine squeals when he is feeling full of himself

Not a criticism however it sounds like he's done quite a bit at a young age. It could possibly be he's been so compliant until now as he's been a bit a little shut down, and now he is feeling stronger and more sure of himself, you are simply getting more feedback.

Just throwing some thoughts out of course. Getting professional help / assessment is a good move. Going back a step and checking your groundwork basics can be helpful too. Reading between the lines it sounds like there may be work to do there. Problems under saddle sometimes present when there's been a deterioration on the ground.

Take heart. You've not runied him. He sounds a lovely horse and I'm sure you'll find your way again

Edited to add the itching while unlikely to be the cause of all could be making him irritable. When horses are already stressed their tolerance threshold is lower. I've just treated mine for lice due to this. According to my vet it's been a bumper year.

 

[ycbm]

I'll start by saying this is my first young horse, my second horse ever, my old mare unfortunately damaged a tendon in the field and has now been retired.

I bought a 4 year old gelding in June last year, he was backed as a 3 year old and turned away then brought back into work before I bought him. He was described as very easy going and pretty much easy in any way but obviously very green. I've had him since June of last year and honestly can say until recently he was exactly as described. I've hacked him on busy roads, hacked both alone and in company, he was very green in the school and still needs lots of improvement but I'm having lessons once a fortnight and I'm trying my best to improve this, I've also boxed him to a farm ride in company and alone to unaffiliated dressage towards the end of the year, he's been easy on the ground and never any fuss in the stable.

This year unfortunately this good behaviour seems to be coming to an end, he had a growth spurt at the beginning of march to the point where my instructor could see the difference in his height between lessons, I don't know if this is related but his behaviour has changed since then. I took him to an arena hire alone mid march and he was so wired it was unreal, I was nearly dragged around the car park and looking back I shouldn't have got on however I thought a rider on may settle him, this ended up with him rearing and broncing after a couple of laps of the school, I hit the floor hard. I thought maybe the environment and being alone was too much for him, he was still his usual self at home. I took him to a second arena hire to an arena he knew with a nanny horse, he was fab the entire time. Next I tried another arena nearby for a trec clinic where he'd still be with two other horses and I'd be on the floor with him. He again got very very antsy, reared up multiple times at the venue usually whenever something passed or made noise outside. Up until then he was still always the same at home, the yard owner reported he had a squeal and a rear once as she fetched him in, I tried my best to replicate the conditions but he hasn't done that since. I hacked out with a friend the other day, he stood on a stick and spooked (happened multiple times before) but then he went up again and reared, as soon as he's back down he doesn't hold on to it and was fine to carry on. Today I gave him a bath (he was itching and really needed it), i've bathed him multiple times with 0 problems, he was absolutely fine to bath but I left him outside in the sun to dry and he started getting antsy again, I let him into his stable and went to grab a rug in case he was getting chilled, heard a squeal and turned around in time to see him go up in the stable.

He does the occasional head shake and squeal, he's not generally squealy with other horses, never seen him kick out at anything, he does pull grumpy faces and can be mouthy if asked to back up etc.

I'm at a bit of a loss, could it just be his age and he's testing boundarys (he'll be 5 in May), have I done something drastically wrong that's causing this? I feel like i've ruined him as he came as such a laid back horse, some days he seems absolutely fine other days I feel worried about doing anything with him in case he kicks off and starts rearing. He's had his saddle checked, back done, teeth done etc etc.

I think I would pretty much always suggest scoping for ulcers with any sudden behaviour change like this, especially when pulling grumpy faces is involved.

Insurance and future exclusions can really muddy the waters but I think I would also want back x-rays and a basic lameness workup.

There's no doubt, though, that "feisty fives” is a real thing. I would be inclined to look for ulcers now but wait until we're through spring before doing much more investigation. Five and spring could certainly result in this behaviour, imo.
.

 

[SEL]

He has been tested and treated twice last month

Treated because he was positive? In that case you may well be dealing with gut issues. I hadn't realised quite how painful tapeworm could be for horses until it was discovered to be the underlying issue behind a friend's horse bolting (teenage mare, not thin, behaviour came out of the blue).

Given the age I may drop the workload for a couple of weeks then think about ulcer investigations - or start on a really good gut supplement

 

[MissTyc]

My now rising 6yo did very little last year as he kept growing awkwardly and the saddle would fit yesterday but not today. He outgrew his bridle, changed shape in all weird ways. He was occasionally explosive, occasionally docile - he had had his 5th winter off after backing but "coming back" into work was a bit of a trial. We ended up doing a lot of in hand "hacking" and some riding out. I stopped pretending I would school him and asked very little as I lowered my expectations from "baby eventing" to "broken horse". I ended last year quite despondent as he seemed unrideable as a 5yo when he'd been such a lovely freshly backed 4yo (I've had him since foal, so I know all history). Obviously in this time I did all the usual pain/ulcer/KS investigations, nothing was diagnosed and I was sent home and told to ride him on. He didn't want to be ridden on!

Between Feb and April this year, he's suddenly grown a leg at each corner, a doubled shoulder, a strong tight topline. His entire carriage has changed from gangly youngster to big powerful horse. And suddenly, he is forward and fresh and eager for his tack. He has found boldness that was not there last year, engages with the world with his giraffe vision. He can even cope with our in season mares now, when this time last year he just wanted to sh4g all day and got agitated when removed from his ladyfriends (he is a gelding but lives in a herd).

I guess what I am saying is the "kevins" exist for a reason, and it's likely some type of discomfort be it physical or mental or even social. It can be really difficult to figure out, but some horses are very slow to mature. It's OK to take the pressure of your horse and yourself. Obviously make sure it's nothing obvious and treatable, but maybe find the time to reconnect with him on the ground and make sure he enjoys your company, so that when you ride it all feels natural and comfortable again.

 

[Pinkvboots]

They can get a naughty when they hit 5 but the behaviour seems a bit extreme so a vet check wouldn't go a miss, could be ulcers could be something else but it definitely needs ruling out.

I also think his doing quite a bit if his going through a growth spurt it could be that the saddle or just work in general is uncomfortable for him, it could also be that because his young your doing too much too soon and it's just blown his brain a bit.

My first port of call would be the vet and I wouldn't ride until his cleared of anything physical, then I would want him turned out as much as possible and just scaling his work back a bit, going out to arena hires might just be a bit too much for him at the moment.

 

[paddi22]

I had a rising five year old that that was an absolutely quiet donkey up to that age. then bucking and messing started after a growth spurt. I just felt he wasn't happy being ridden. gave him a year out to level off and he came back in fine. you hit that stage sometimes with young horses and throwing them in a field till their bodies look a bit less babyish is the only way I found to fix it. to me it felt like the combo of hormones, growth pains, saddle feeling different, feeling unbalanced and uncoordinated, more workload and more experiences in the world can just overwhelm a few young horses! I find it more in the quiet ones because they are quiet because they tend to bottle it up until the pressure builds and then they explode.

as regards the rearing I'd def get a pro in before it becomes an ingrained stress response. at this age the right person can help the horse and riding find coping mechanisms so it doesn't get to the rearing point.

 

[Tansibel]

Treated because he was positive? In that case you may well be dealing with gut issues. I hadn't realised quite how painful tapeworm could be for horses until it was discovered to be the underlying issue behind a friend's horse bolting (teenage mare, not thin, behaviour came out of the blue).

Given the age I may drop the workload for a couple of weeks then think about ulcer investigations - or start on a really good gut supplement

He was positive but very very low numbers, I treated him twice to make doubly sure they were gone

 

[Tansibel]

It's often worth getting the vet out for a full lameness workup with a behavioual change. The mouthyness could be teeth related, cheekyness and/or stress related.
Physical causes ruled out it could be a case of spring grass combined with him feeling stronger and more confident in himself. Mine squeals when he is feeling full of himself

Not a criticism however it sounds like he's done quite a bit at a young age. It could possibly be he's been so compliant until now as he's been a bit a little shut down, and now he is feeling stronger and more sure of himself, you are simply getting more feedback.

Just throwing some thoughts out of course. Getting professional help / assessment is a good move. Going back a step and checking your groundwork basics can be helpful too. Reading between the lines it sounds like there may be work to do there. Problems under saddle sometimes present when there's been a deterioration on the ground.

Take heart. You've not runied him. He sounds a lovely horse and I'm sure you'll find your way again

Edited to add the itching while unlikely to be the cause of all could be making him irritable. When horses are already stressed their tolerance threshold is lower. I've just treated mine for lice due to this. According to my vet it's been a bumper year.

He went out three times last year, twice to a small lowkey venue thats 15mins from home, and three times this year, my plan for the arena hire wasnt to be doing anything in particular just walk him around. The trec clinic was based around baby horses it wasnt anything overly taxing. He's schooled once a week for 30mins max and hacked 3 or 4 times but only really up to an hour and a half, mostly hour rides. Would that really be too much for a horse turning five or already turned five if you follow the birthday in january rule? Not being grumpy about the comment just honestly curious.

 

[dougpeg]

He went out three times last year, twice to a small lowkey venue thats 15mins from home, and three times this year, my plan for the arena hire wasnt to be doing anything in particular just walk him around. The trec clinic was based around baby horses it wasnt anything overly taxing. He's schooled once a week for 30mins max and hacked 3 or 4 times but only really up to an hour and a half, mostly hour rides. Would that really be too much for a horse turning five or already turned five if you follow the birthday in january rule? Not being grumpy about the comment just honestly curious.

For some horses maybe. As I said, my thoughts are just that. You were asking for suggestions. You can of course disregard them. I wish you well with him.

 

[SEL]

He went out three times last year, twice to a small lowkey venue thats 15mins from home, and three times this year, my plan for the arena hire wasnt to be doing anything in particular just walk him around. The trec clinic was based around baby horses it wasnt anything overly taxing. He's schooled once a week for 30mins max and hacked 3 or 4 times but only really up to an hour and a half, mostly hour rides. Would that really be too much for a horse turning five or already turned five if you follow the birthday in january rule? Not being grumpy about the comment just honestly curious.

Possibly. Mine will be 6 in a few weeks and was vile this winter then turned back into his usual happy self about a fortnight ago. He spent most of winter looking like 4 legs weren't coming out of the right corners so I think he wasn't comfortable in his body. He also dropped a lot of muscle tone so I think his body was working quite hard to develop into a teenager.

The weather meant we pootled and didn't do much but I think that's what he needed anyway.

 

[Polos Mum]

My 5 y/o had 6 months off when he grew suddenly - the saddle was slightly tight everything was downhill and the physio found all sorts of unusual tightness.
My previously angle pony was sore and weird feeling with everything out of kilter.

I could have done loads of interventions, fiddled with saddle and had physio but realistically they are still really young.

A not unreasonable rule of thumb is 3 human years to a horse year - so your 4 y/o is c. 12-15 year old boy - all sort of stuff going on physically and this weather (in lots, -2 one night and +13 the next) is taking it's told on many of them.

You can do loads of prodding and poking - but one alternative to think about for such a youngster who's been started young would be 6 months off and see if things settle.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Lots of good advice above but I would also look at his diet. Has his feed changed/ increased as his work has increased? I would step back to ground work only for a few weeks and strip his feed back to grass-based only.

 

[Tansibel]

Lots of good advice above but I would also look at his diet. Has his feed changed/ increased as his work has increased? I would step back to ground work only for a few weeks and strip his feed back to grass-based only.

He has a handful of molasses free chaff just to give him a magnesium oxide supplement (something recommended after he had me off)

 

[maya2008]

Is he out on spring grass? Magnesium supplementation is cheap, doesn’t do any harm if it wasn’t needed, and is worth a try. We have had two change behaviour this spring, becoming more spooky, more touchy, generally antsy and not right - added Magnesium and they went back to their previous happy selves.

The standard 5year old Kevin stage is usually a more extreme presentation of their usual behaviour. So we had a slow and steady one that started napping in front and absolutely refusing to do anything that required too much effort, a kind and gentle one with trauma around being touched behind who reverted to being funny about that with adults but still fine with her adored children, a speedy one who became just a little nuts and ran everywhere, a stroppy one who decided to argue about everything, ran off and spun, aiming to dump rider if not getting her own way, a NF who bucked you off when she’d had enough and tanked out hacking if she thought you were being boring…and so on. All had a tendency towards those things before, but it was massively muted. Age 6 arrived, it all faded away and they grew up.

 

[Esmae]

If he was mine I would rule out all the physical stuff with the vet anyway and then turn him away until the autumn to mature and relax and then start over. He is still a young chap. give him some time.

 

[Nasicus]

My 6yo was horrible coming out of this winter. She had the winter off, but her general attitude was suddenly pretty crap, and she'd discovered the two legged waving technique. Had osteopath, vet check, bloods taken, ovaries scanned, all sorts, all came back clear. Then, same as SEL, about a week to two weeks ago, she was suddenly sweet as pie once more.

 

[honetpot]

My three in June Highland colt was gelded last week, he still looks a bit like a cut and shut if you look hard, but most people wouldn't notice. He has outgrown his cob sized headcollar, and the only one I could find to fit was full sized last used on a 16hand IDX, but his head looks proportion to the rest of him. I think its difficult sometimes to judge how much they have grown, and where that growth has gone.

To a degree when they start to say no its almost a good thing, because if that is the worst they are ever going to do and you have avoided the confrontation and diverted the energy else where, you are over the main hump in their life, its working out what is the pressure point and how much pressure to apply.
With rearing and generally messing around its belt and braces approach, nobody handles them but me, its headcollar, bridle, lead rope, lunge line, gloves and hard hat and personal space, and what ever they do you just are unmoved, and not take it personally.

TBH I haven't had a really xxxx one for a while because I have had them mostly from yearlings, or two year olds, I think buying them in when older you just do not know what they have been allowed to get a way with. My home grown youngster came back off loan and had obviously been allowed to be pushy, I also have a older pony that at three had perfect manners, but the person I bought back from was frightened of him, so he had become abit of an ahole, so rearing may have been and effective way to scare the life out of the handler, and a default avoidance.

So there may be a physical problem but I think you always have to think what if there isn't and what I am going to do to manage it, be it handling, and general horse care, and don't worry too much. My favorite sayings with horses and kids is, its just a passing phase, and tomorrow is another day

 

[Needtoretire]

If he was mine I would rule out all the physical stuff with the vet anyway and then turn him away until the autumn to mature and relax and then start over. He is still a young chap. give him some time.

Taking this route will put lots of exclusions on the insurance and cause problems in the future.

As I found out recently. Behaviour problems with a slightly older horse, suspected hocks but nothing on xray. Bordering dangerous to ride so he went in for full work up and MRI. Found his problem was his hocks which were dealt with. Insurer excluded, at renewal, skull, neck, spine, pelvis and both hind legs. I questioned their reasoning and they said arthritis could affect the rest of him so they excluded his skeletal structure basically. Of course they still wanted £1400 to insure what was left.

I would be very wary about going too quickly down the full vet work up with a young horse showing a bit of attitude. Before we has access to all the diagnostic kit we would have either given down time or sent it hunting for a season to reassess its outlook on life.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Taking this route will put lots of exclusions on the insurance and cause problems in the future.

As I found out recently. Behaviour problems with a slightly older horse, suspected hocks but nothing on xray. Bordering dangerous to ride so he went in for full work up and MRI. Found his problem was his hocks which were dealt with. Insurer excluded, at renewal, skull, neck, spine, pelvis and both hind legs. I questioned their reasoning and they said arthritis could affect the rest of him so they excluded his skeletal structure basically. Of course they still wanted £1400 to insure what was left.

I would be very wary about going too quickly down the full vet work up with a young horse showing a bit of attitude. Before we has access to all the diagnostic kit we would have either given down time or sent it hunting for a season to reassess its outlook on life.

The horse has reared and bronced her off I don't think I would want to continue riding him after that without ruling out pain though.