Advice on returning a dog

[Dobiegirl]

Dobiegirl! thanks for that! She hasn't realised that I'm not up to the job. I have had dogs before. I am more than willing to spend some time as I said keeping on top of the training, reinforcing what an already part trained dog should be able to do. I also wanted to do some agility or obedience once a week with my trainer - hence why I have been seeing her.
I can't believe some people are so rude!

You have said before that you didnt have the time to train this dog, my post was with the very best of intentions as I felt you were out of your depth with this dog. If you wish to continue with this dog go to a training class it will be an hour out of your week and will also help socialise him with other dogs. Everyone on this forum including me will be only too happy to give advice which you have already received but its up to you whether you take it or not.

I would still like to know why you paid £1k for this dog when you were not interested in shooting.

 

[lochpearl]

but surely you want to bond with this dog? training is part of the process and it's not really the topping up, it's gaining a partnership for you both. As you said, the dog has been living in a family for the last 6 months, now he has come to you and his world has totally changed. If the bond with you and him gets stronger and you learn how to work with him, I'm sure he will be fine.

 

[CorvusCorax]

That's dogs for you but I am sorry you had to spend £1k to find that out in this instance
TBH I have sunk most of my time and money into my older dog who needed a lot of work but it has opened up a whole new past time, passion and set of friends to me!

Bear in mind if you are out with a buggy that equipment will be a big factor in how pleasant your walk will be - good headcollar or control collar, good lead with a hands free option if you need it, bodywarmer with treats and balls if you need to distract or play with the dog, etc x

 

[blackcob]

blackcob - I would really appreciate a brief summary about it. I really would like to know more about this as I have just been told that that is how it is. i.e. he thinks he is in charge and he is being a protector

I really would recommend getting a copy if at all possible, it makes for very enlightening reading, but I'll try and summarise a few points re: the dominance thing.

Dominance theory came out of studies on captive wolf packs. Domestic dogs are not wolves, neither are captive wolves like wild wolves.

Dogs are disobedient because they have no idea what is being asked of them, are undermotivated to comply, or something else has 'won' at the time, like a fleeing squirrel (dogs are products of their genes - they are predators, they 'live in the moment' (one thing Cesar Milan got right), they are highly social, they are oppotunistic scavengers, 'it's all chew toys to them' and are wholly self interested). They are not capable of staying up at night planning how to take over the family or understanding of concepts like revenge.

Training involves a steady history of reinforcement, a supplied motivation, generalisation to the context in which the command is given and proofing the behaviour against competing motivation in order to = 100% obedience.

Dogs are born unaware that they are in a culture in which biting is not acceptable. Fight + flight is a natural response to increase the distance between the dog and whatever has spooked them. Which reaction a dog displays is partly in their genetic makeup and partly historical - if they've scared off a dog that scared them in the past by lunging and snarling, they will lunge and snarl at anything else that approaches them in a manner in which they are not comfortable with.

This is all tied in with the person on the end of the lead - you know your dog will react badly to other dogs so you punish the behaviour - voices are raised, the lead is held tight, the dog throttled back, everybody is tense, the dog is forced to sit and be throttled and watch as something he totally doesn't know how to interact with passes him by and he's fearful, he's anxious, so is the owner and it's all transmitted down the leash and in the body language. The entire situation is stressful - the dog generalises to understand that other dogs - stress. Maybe the other dog is the same, hasn't been adequately socialised - there's a face-off.

 

[pinky1401]

I am willing to go to a class once a week with him. That was the plan from the start to do agility or obedience. What I can't do when I am walking him with my daughter in her buggy is things like turning round in the opposite direction when we see another dog and he starts growling. That is what I mean when I say I'm not able to put the time in. Sorry I should be more specific.

 

[lexiedhb]

lexie read previous posts about walking with him. Am worried that she will be in the way next time he wants to be aggressive to another dog.

Ok but walking any dog of size, like a lab could mean you getting dragged over if they see a squirrel etc, jump up on buggy, dogs are animals not robots, so will react to differing situations.

 

[pinky1401]

Cave Canem you should see my jacket when we go out! I have tennis balls, squeakers, treats and poop bags spilling out of it!

 

[pinky1401]

Ok but walking any dog of size, like a lab could mean you getting dragged over if they see a squirrel etc, jump up on buggy, dogs are animals not robots, so will react to differing situations.

I can deal with being dragged off etc I'm heavily anchored having a bitten face is a different matter.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Everyone no matter how experienced should be prepared to have to spend time keeping on top of training, not just once a week but constantly. I have just come back from a training class with my daughters pup, he was a horror as I expected, shrieked his excitement at everyone and forgot everything he has been taught, I expected that, and know with time he will improve. Similarly your dog even if he is partly trained, has had a lot to take in over the 3 weeks you have had him. I do not subscribe to the dominance theory, but it is a possibility he feels he has to protect you and your daughter. My very laid back GSD became quite sharp with people when I first had my daughter, I had to be very careful that people didn't sweep in and try and pick the baby up etc when the dog was round, I know it is early days but there is a chance your dog feel this new little person in their life needs protecting.
If you are prepared to put more time in persevering with this dog it would probably be worthwhile, but if you really do not feel he is the dog for you I think you should return him and unfortunately I think it is unlikely you will get all your money back.

 

[lochpearl]

pinky - you should really be chastised for this!!! WHERE are the PICTURES!!!!!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Good good!

I second the recommendation of The Culture Clash, of which BC has given an excellent summary. I do disagree with the author on the issue of choke chains, used properly I have no issue with them, but the book is an excellent look into the brain of a dog and it gave me a lot of lightbulb moments, even though I thought I knew a lot, I actually didn't.

 

[blackcob]

I only read it for the first time quite recently and am still feeling pretty evangelical about it, sorry. In Defence of Dogs is next on the list once I've got a spare evening.

 

[lizness]

I think that some of you have been rather unfair. From what I have read of it OP has got a trained, i.e housetrained, taught to walk on lead etc. An adult dog as she doesn't have time with a small child, maybe not to watch constantly. She has got a failed gundog that has also been a family pet and for the money has expected the dog as advertised. OP has stated that the dog will get up to 3 hours exercise a day also a training class and has chosen a lab, a very common family pet. Is there really anything wrong with this??

Maybe you need to give it a bit longer to settle but for that sumwhat crazy money I would expect a very genuine dog!

 

[Broodle]

OP - I suspect Cayla has hit the mark with her comment that your dog has probably not often left his breeder's farm, and is therefore not well socialised with dogs outside of his old 'pack'. This would, I think, explain why he is lunging at other dogs out walking, especially if he is on the lead and therefore has no escape route from the (to him) scary other dogs.

Anyway, I guess only you can decide whether you have the time and energy to work through your dog's problems. If you don't then he'll have to go back, but I imagine the only way to get your money back will be via small claims court, and then only if you have really good documentary evidence of the breeder's claims and some sort of expert testimony (vet, behaviourist etc) that the dog is not as described and his problems are not of your making I think you may have to write the money off sadly, as a legal claim would seem to be sending good money after bad

For all those focussing on the price paid by the OP - really, is that any of your business? Also, this 'still unsettled after 3 weeks' is just silly imo - my dogs and those of my friends regularly stay with dog minders or at friends houses for holiday cover, and they don't suddenly lose their manners/recall/socialisation skills just because they've gone somewhere new...

Also, there is nothing wrong with the OP wanting to spend good money to buy a really nice natured well trained dog. Just because most people either make their own from scratch (i.e. buy a puppy) or rehabilitate/retrain a rescue, doesn't mean it's wrong to want a dog without having to do the difficult early work. Certainly doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't be allowed to have a dog at all!

 

[CorvusCorax]

OP volunteered the info about the money therefore I feel entitled to say that *I think* it is an outrageous price for an adult dog, part trained or not...and in this case, not.
Re your dogs doing well away from home, horses for courses, some dogs cope better than others, a read through of posts on here could confirm that not every dog is the same

Agree re socialisation though

 

[Broodle]

OP volunteered the info about the money therefore I feel entitled to say that *I think* it is an outrageous price for an adult dog, part trained or not...and in this case, not.
Re your dogs doing well away from home, horses for courses, some dogs cope better than others, a read through of posts on here could confirm that not every dog is the same

Agree re socialisation though

Fair enough! I just thought the comments about the price weren't helpful in the context.

And fair comment about the coping away from home thing too, but I think that it is probably also unhelpful to give the impression that the OPs problems might just go away once the dog settles in (which I know isn't what you/others were saying, but is something that can be inferred from the idea).

 

[CAYLA]

Sorry completely off topic but.....CAYLA can you find me a female lab like the boy you described pretty please

I could have ..........LAST WEEK We have rehomed a fair few labs this months, a fab (very well bred bitch) just last week

 

[s4sugar]

How old is this dog as from the Op's comments it is just a puppy?
In what way did it fail as a gundog?

BTW I agree the price was extortionate for a "not quite all it could be" older puppy or young adult & at what age was it castrated?

 

[The Original Kao]

I could have ..........LAST WEEK We have rehomed a fair few labs this months, a fab (very well bred bitch) just last week

Damn just missed out. Please let me know if anything else comes in, doesn't have to be a pure bred lab either.

 

[tori252]

1k for a part gun trained dog thats not working anymore. Madness. My spring was ALOT less from pup and is the most brilliant dog in ANY situation. Rehome the dog to someone who beats or can have it out all day and get thee a pup. Hard work. Yes. B

 

[tori252]

I wouldnt trust a dog that wasnt in the house before baby or grown up with it

 

[Fii]

Did your lab go for the other dog while your child was there?
Could be he is very protective of your child.
What is he like around the baby?

 

[echodomino]

I wouldnt trust a dog that wasnt in the house before baby or grown up with it

Technically you shouldn't trust any dog, no matter what it's temperament or history, with a baby. They're animals at the end of the day and as such have their own mind and are unpredictable. Children should never be left alone with dogs.

Just hope that if the OP decides he goes back to his breeder that he doesn't get passed from pillar to post

 

[Spudlet]

It took Henry a good six months to really settle down and be himself - yes, he now deals with staying with other people and seems ok, but that doesn't mean he's himself and as relaxed as he is at home with me. Three weeks is nothing, nothing at all.

TBH, given the information on this thread, given the fact that the breeder was happy to palm the dog off for a grand onto someone who, with the greatest of respect, seems not to be right for this particular dog, I don't hold out much hope for the future. Sounds like the dog will go to the first person who stumps up the readies, no questions asked.

 

[Naryafluffy]

OP - I suspect Cayla has hit the mark with her comment that your dog has probably not often left his breeder's farm, and is therefore not well socialised with dogs outside of his old 'pack'. This would, I think, explain why he is lunging at other dogs out walking, especially if he is on the lead and therefore has no escape route from the (to him) scary other dogs.

!

Agree, my friend had 3 dogs and took 2 puppies from her brothers accidental litter (2 puppies from the same litter is an entirely different thread) so there were 5 dogs on the yard, plus another couple that other people brought to visit, I always thought they were well socialised until I took the female off yard to do a bit of agility, it wanted to kill every other dog in sight (and she's not a big dog), she did eventually settle down at the dog agility but with rather a lot of grumbling. Started obedience classes with her earlier this year and again, different dogs, they all deserved to die, we stuck it out and whilst she still wants to savage other dogs when she's on the leash if I let her off leash she's great (has actually started to learn to play with the other dogs, but that could just be that no one can resist playing with the ridgeback youngster and he's pretty insistent that everyone plays!!!).
Could you try taking him for a walk with friends dogs and letting them off leash, I never thought I would be brave enough to do this, but we now walk most nights with her brother and my friends 2 ridgies and sometimes my bosses ridgie gets dragged along as well (he does get into trouble from her frequently but then he acts like tigger on speed so I can see her point)

 

[Spudlet]

TBH, given the information on this thread, given the fact that the breeder was happy to palm the dog off for a grand onto someone who, with the greatest of respect, seems not to be right for this particular dog, I don't hold out much hope for the future. Sounds like the dog will go to the first person who stumps up the readies, no questions asked.

Re-reading that, I should clarify that I'm criticising the breeder and not the OP.

 

[CL66]

I think, going back to the original question, you'd be very lucky to get a penny out of the people you bought the dog from. Not because I think you've done anything wrong, but IMO they ripped you off in the first place, selling you effectively a 'failed' gundog (if it wouldn't do it's job and hence 'needed' a family home) at the price of a trained gundog. Not that that's your fault, i guess you just had some high expectations of a trained gundog (excellent recall, work on leash etc) trouble is dogs behave differently when working and when out on a ramble.

So, best bet is to either take the hit on the money and try and rehome it elsewhere or maybe give a few months and see if it improves with time/training.

But sadly think you'll have to accept the money is long gone.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There is a wider issue here and not aimed as a kick to the OP but to any potential buyer.

There are a lot of shysters out there (more?) not automatically suggesting that this is the case in this instance but we do get a lot of people who have been told, this is a working pup because all the relatives have their qualifications, paid out £££, the dog is not interested in food or a ball/toy at all - desire for those things is the basis of all the training we do and should be in the genetics.

This is a show dog, £££, it is a longcoat so cannot be shown, it's ears have not come up, it walks like a kangaroo, etc etc etc.

Dogs imported/sold for ££££ with all their qualifications and whistles and bells, that look at you blankly when you throw a dumbbell or lay a track.
People who take in dogs for training, take lots of money and return a dog who does that ^^^

If you're (anyone) being asked for a tonne of cash for a dog because it is supposed to be trainer or part trained or have all these amazing attributes, ASK to see it doing what it is supposed to have been trained to do, the seller should be happy to demonstrate, even on a video or web link.
If it's a pup, ask to see video or in-person demonstration of the mother and father displaying some sort of aptitude for a task.

Buyer beware of course, but it is becoming harder these days to take people at face value.

 

[PolarSkye]

Dogs are disobedient because they have no idea what is being asked of them, are undermotivated to comply, or something else has 'won' at the time, like a fleeing squirrel (dogs are products of their genes - they are predators, they 'live in the moment' (one thing Cesar Milan got right), they are highly social, they are oppotunistic scavengers, 'it's all chew toys to them' and are wholly self interested). They are not capable of staying up at night planning how to take over the family or understanding of concepts like revenge.

Training involves a steady history of reinforcement, a supplied motivation, generalisation to the context in which the command is given and proofing the behaviour against competing motivation in order to = 100% obedience.

Dogs are born unaware that they are in a culture in which biting is not acceptable. Fight + flight is a natural response to increase the distance between the dog and whatever has spooked them. Which reaction a dog displays is partly in their genetic makeup and partly historical - if they've scared off a dog that scared them in the past by lunging and snarling, they will lunge and snarl at anything else that approaches them in a manner in which they are not comfortable with.

This is all tied in with the person on the end of the lead - you know your dog will react badly to other dogs so you punish the behaviour - voices are raised, the lead is held tight, the dog throttled back, everybody is tense, the dog is forced to sit and be throttled and watch as something he totally doesn't know how to interact with passes him by and he's fearful, he's anxious, so is the owner and it's all transmitted down the leash and in the body language. The entire situation is stressful - the dog generalises to understand that other dogs - stress. Maybe the other dog is the same, hasn't been adequately socialised - there's a face-off.

The most sensible and coherent reply on this thread so far . . . totally agree with all of it.

We learned the hard way about "energy" and how being fearful or anticipating a problem only means you set your dog up to be fearful/have a problem. Dogs do not need to be dominated to learn how to behave in your home - but they do need leadership and guidance. Being firm but fair and very, very consistent is the way to teach your dog right from wrong. Being dominant and/or aggressive will only result in a fear aggressive dog. An example:

We had a lovely staffie/collie cross called Tilly. We adopted her from a rescue when she was 6 months old or so. She was our first dog. The shelter told us she was possessive of her food and a little hyper and that she had been rehomed because she had been beaten up by another dog in the house. All of the above should have rung loud warning bells - but I felt sorry for her. Biiiiiiiiiiiig mistake. We brought her home and she proceeded to go totally barmy . . . I don't think she had any idea how to live in a home - she had zero manners. She also didn't know how to play. She was, however, extremely sweet with both of my children (staffies aren't known as the nanny dog without good reason). She was very food aggressive - we taught her to sit and wait for her food which helped, and we taught her "leave it" if food dropped on the floor, but we didn't put her in situations where either she or we would be challenging each other over food. She wasn't allowed on the furniture because she would growl if she was moved and she was very, very unsure of/worried about elderly men. Three days after we got her, my girls were walking her in the park (thankfully with my OH) when she was viciously attacked by another dog. About six months after we got Tilly, I thought she might like a companion (yes, I know . . . ) and went back to the shelter. They had a litter of puppies and I brought one of them home. Fred is a collie/jrt cross and walked into our house like he owned the place. Tilly took an instant dislike to him, but aside from teaching him some manners now and again, just tolerated him. They didn't play together, they didn't curl up together and Fred learned early on to stay well away from food when Tilly was around. Not long after Freddie arrived, Tilly was really poorly with an obstruction in her gut - she had life-saving surgery. Shortly after she came home from the vet, Fred accidentally bounced on her and she tore into him . . . ripped a hole in one ear and the poor boy shat himself in fright. This was the beginning of a pattern . . . Tilly would tear a strip off Fred for getting above himself (although never actually hurting him) and Fred would become ultra submissive. This went on for three years - a "spat" about once every 8 months or so. One day my girls were walking both dogs when, for no reason we could see, Tilly went for Fred - and didn't stop. A passerby had to pull her off him - the girls were terrified. I put it down to some food or a food wrapper that the girls hadn't noticed. About three weeks later, she did it again - and this time Fred fought for his life and she landed him in the hospital with multiple really deep bite wounds requiring stitches - there was blood everywhere. From that moment on, they couldn't be in the same room without Tilly going for him - and Fred was so terrified of her that he wouldn't even walk past her if she were crated. I do think that Tilly should never have been homed with another dog - and that we were idiots for bringing another dog into the house. I also believe, however, that despite getting lots and lots of help to try and resolve the issue, we (actually my eldest daughter) couldn't help her past it because we were too worried about it happening again. We created tension that kept us all stuck - and we just couldn't get past it - Em used to go and stand outside in the cold and the dark rather than be in the same room with both dogs. It broke our hearts, but in the end we decided to take Tilly back to the shelter so she could find another home where she would be the only dog and could live with people experienced at handling dogs with issues. We know that she has found such a home and is very happy now, but we still miss her (three years later).

I don't believe that your dog is a problem dog, I just think it needs to learn how live in a family setting and deal with other dogs/people - but I do think you haven't spent enough time getting to know the dog or allow it to settle - I also think that as long as you are expecting a problem, you will get one.

What you have described is a very intelligent dog with a busy brain - and one that has been used to having a job to do. Just going for a walk with you (however long the walk may be) and your little one in a buggy isn't really a substitute for the kind of stimulation this particular dog has been used to. Also, if the dog needs to learn some walking manners (e.g., how to meet and greet other dogs/walkers) then you're better off walking it when you can give it your undivided attention, i.e., without your daughter.

P

 

[Cop-Pop]

The people who bred Yellow Dog keep a couple back from every other litter as he's a game keeper. If one of them doesn't work out as a gundog then its generally given away for free or a nominal amount of money - he offered an 18 month old one to me last year for £50. He sold a fully trained one with experience for about 1k...