Advice on weight (or lack of)

countrybumpkin85 said:
Thank you, I'll double check he did white cell counts. Barley feeds sent her loopy too! The C&C is the only feed so far thats shown a positive difference. Does linseed oil just come in a bottle from any equine shop?
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You can buy it in Tesco... Linseed or flax... Same difference. They also do rice bran oil which is good too
 
Billie1007 said:
I'm sorry but I'm really a little miffed now. How on earth did you think it was appropriate to ride her? Seriously? Is this a wind up?
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I have to say that I'm suspecting the same, although nothing would surprise me anymore.
Bangs head against brick wall...
 
Queenbee said:
Yeah well, I probably spoke to about 12 nutritionalists last year for the same reason... Not one would reccommend pp... And I doubt you would use it if you looked into some of the ingredients, protexin was recommended by them, and my vet too. In addition, exercising a horse that thin is pretty shocking, and your dentist has no idea... Because he has not seen the teeth. I'm being blunt, I know, but only because I've been exactly where you are, and it was not teeth, bloods were all fine, absolutely everything under the sun was tested for and tried and nothing could save her. So I do have a bit of a clue what I'm talking about. You really think she can even risk wasting one calorie burnt from exercise?

Look, bottom line, you love your mare, and its clear that whatever is causing this is pretty serious. You asked for advice, I'm giving you mine, which is based on experience, lots of research, lots of conversations with lots of vets and lots of nutritionalists. Believe me, when you are in a situation like yours, you take all the support, suggestions and help that's going and pray to god it's enough.
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I only spoke to the one nutritionist :( I've obviously gotten some useless advice mixed in with the good, and listened to the wrong people all round. So what if I love her? I know there is something serious otherwise I wouldn't have risked being made to feel so crap in the hope just one person may have the key to whats causing it all. QB thank you thank you thank you, I'm going to be asking about that tomorrow with the vet. Its nice to have a ray of hope that an answer has been found.
 
I think that answer is that you need to stop riding her until she has put some weight on. Just reading your 'gag' thread, and it's clear that you have been working her.
 
She's in pretty poor condition, poor mare. Anyone care to offer a guess at a body score? I'd be shocked to see her being ridden at all and can't imagine anyone seeing past her bones long enough to comment on her shiny coat. I'm afraid anyone who had been in charge of any of my animals and failed to mention it was losing condition so drastically would be very thoroughly questioned about what had been going on. It may actually be nothing they had or hadn't done - but if it has been neglect, I think difficult conversations need to be had. And, yes, you will have learned a very harsh lesson - a member on here posted recently about a similar incident - and her mare didn't make it.

On the other hand, if this has been sudden weight loss, it may well be nobody's fault and purely medical. Has the vet considered grass sickness? Please be guided by your vet and nutritionist - don't panic and try to put too much weight on her too quickly, as it could cause more damage than good. At least Dr Green is just around the corner (although again, you will have to be careful).

Bless her, I hope she improves soon xx
 
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CB don't thank me, if it is what I have suggested, well it's very hard to treat, let alone identify the cause and if it is fixable its a really long hard road.

To everyone else who is being critical, can I just say... Back off and shut up *please*

OP I think realises, she has made some errors here, but the main thing is that there is a very underweight horse here, who is very obviously struggling to gain weight. OP needs support and advice, just like I did last year. So please can we just give her that and save the running down for another time.

Please let's not scare away someone who is obviously desperate for some support and help with this. I have told op that you are all really very nice people:p (of course I had my fingers crossed when i said this;))
 
Queenbee said:
CB don't thank me, if it is what I have suggested, well it's very hard to treat, let alone identify the cause and if it is fixable its a really long hard road.

To everyone else who is being critical, can I just say... Back off and shut up *please*

OP I think realises, she has made some errors here, but the main thing is that there is a very underweight horse here, who is very obviously struggling to gain weight. OP needs support and advice, just like I did last year. So please can we just give her that and save the running down for another time.

Please let's not scare away someone who is obviously desperate for some support and help with this. I have told op that you are all really very nice people:p (of course I had my fingers crossed when i said this;))
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This ^^^^^^
 
Ok, then I think the mare needs rest, and Dr Green. Keeping her locked up in a stable 24/7 isn't the answer. The temperatures are rising, she could do with some sunshine on her back, and grass in her belly. I know that the grass is taking a while to come through, but it IS growing, and that is what it best for horses. I'm not saying to out her out 24/7 on it, but a few hours a day will do her the world of good. Keeping her in, when it sounds like she is getting wound up about it, will only cause her to stress more weight off. Also, when you say that her worming is upto date, when was she last wormed and what with? The teeth should have been dealt with months ago, no excuses there I'm afraid.
Good luck
 
countrybumpkin85 said:
Just a thought...after going out to put some more hay in, would there be a reason (other than worms as thats been checked) that a few horses would drop weight this badly? Just petted another pony (not mine) and his hips are just as bad. Also a very valuable show jumper in the field has dropped suddenly. (Again not one of mine).
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Countrybumpkin - liver problems can cause horses to lose weight very rapidly. Has the vet run bloods and tested for liver function? I'd ask for gGt, bile acid, alp and gldh to be done. (of course your vet may have already tested for this)

I have some experience of this as I have recently treated a horse with liver problems. Also Box of Frogs on here is an expert in liver probs (if it is liver problems your horse has, of course).

I'd ask for those bloods straight away, because IF it is a liver problem, then adding the oils to the diet would be a BIG no no.

If you and your vet are sure it is not the liver, then oil, especially micronised linseed, is a good way of adding calories for weight gain. Also, yea sacc is really good too.
 
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I wouldn't exercise her untill she's got weight on, Also I would do a double dose of strong gid p for tape worm, my boy was wormed and everything but still managed to have tape worm wich ate everything I was feeding him! Worms get used to the wormer so always good to change.

Also calm and condition won't do alot IMO, Didnt for my boy. He wasn't far from looking like ur poor mare, He's on d&h ERS pellets and Alfa beet. With Alfa chaff. All sugar n molasses free as he has ulcers, Kind to tummys I would let her rest for a good month. If some one can help u feed her. Put her on 4 feeds a day. Help build her.

Hope she improves soon x
 
You took a chance posting pics on here!

At the risk of being shot to pieces, I would say don't beat yourself up, you're doing all you can to bring your mare up to speed. It's been a long winter, last year was a bad harvest and lots of the forage was got late and is poor quality, a lot haven't fared well through no fault of their owners.

If she were mine, i'd keep her warm, get the best forage you can and make sure she has plenty in front of her all the time and as soon as is humanly possible, get her out on some grass.

Oh, and stop worrying and blaming yourself
 
we have a 30 something arab on the yard and she drops badly every winer and we had her on build and glow this year and has made a difference she has wobbly teeth so we soak the build and glow into a pulp and add sugarbeet and soaked sizteen plus too. she has cushings and is rugged to high heaven to get her to stay warm but bless she keeps on going but my i dread peaking under her rugs to do my weekly checks as she is so boney! owners not the best and giving her everything she needs but myself and yard owner do our ebst within owner constriaints and the build and glow has definetly made an improvement plus she also has to see the dentist every 3-4months as her teeth are gappy and crap so we have to frequently clean out the gubbins stuck in between them we also syrigne her mouth with warm water after feeds to clear out and this has made a big difference.
Good look in can be horrifying watching thier boney bodies whilst your doing your best to keep them warm and stuffed with lovely feed
 
poor mare, being in somerset I am quite sure there are both dentists and quality vets who would not use power tools if you discussed it with them. It is not unusual for some horses- particularly older ones to need their teeth doing every 6 months. Mine also has gaps that need clearing like Hawks.

Clearly turnout and just haylage was probably completely insufficient for this mare through the winter and if you are unable to care for her again she will need to be fed (and checked) on a regular basis.

If the vet thinks that medically she is ok then you need to give her future feeding serious consideration. It might be wise to employ an independent nutritionist because 2 kg of CC is not a lot.

She also doesn't seem to have a lot of coat development for a nov/dec clip though perhaps they are all different on that.
 
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Lolo said:
It'll only pass through what it can't digest and I'd rather that.
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Lolo said:
2kg is nothing, unless she's a very small pony! Reg is eating 2 full buckets (water bucket types, not little feed buckets) of high-fat/ conditioning feed a day to maintain weight. Mum reckons weight wise he must be eating 8-10kg of hard feed a day.
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Please, please don't listen to this advice, it is seriously ill informed.

Excess feed WILL NOT just pass through and do no harm - particularly if high in starch. A horse should never, never have less than 50% of it's diet as forage.

A horse should never be fed more than 1g of starch per 1kg of bodyweight. Feeding any more than this at a time can have VERY serious health implications.

A diet to put on weight should always be based on forage, which you have with ad lib hay. After that, use oil. Up to 100ml per 100kg of bodyweight is safe - no more. Only then reach for the cereals.

I would say you could up the calm and condition to at least 3kg a day (two stubbs scoops) and add something like alfa a oil. Then start adding the oils and extras. Something like Protexin I think has already been mentioned, and is a very good idea.

But please don't just lose your head and start chucking hard feed at her in spades, as it could do serious damage to her very sensitive digestive system. 10kg of hard feed isn't normal - that's half a sack a day! Barmy.
 
I think it depends what some term 'hard feed' too given that things like speedibeet/readigrass/alfalfa etc etc are really essentially forage but likely higher DE than the hay- especially as there are potentially teeth issues ongoing
 
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ester said:
I think it depends what some term 'hard feed' too given that things like speedibeet/readigrass/alfalfa etc etc are really essentially forage but likely higher DE than the hay- especially as there are potentially teeth issues ongoing
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I agree fibre based feeds are safer in higher quantities, but 10kg dry weight is the ENTIRE ration for a 500kg horse based on 2% of bodyweight. No less than 50% of that should be hay/haylage/grass unless the horse physically can't eat them due to poor dentition.
 
yup, just thought it was worth pointing out for the sake of clarity iyswim, especially as I have known a few poor doers do very well off buckets of readigrass/beet instead of upping their starch intake.
 
ester said:
yup, just thought it was worth pointing out for the sake of clarity iyswim, especially as I have known a few poor doers do very well off buckets of readigrass/beet instead of upping their starch intake.
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This is what I did with out old mare in her latter years due to teeth, lots of beet and alfalfa was easier for her than hay.

I think there is some great advice on here and some very poor advice, the trouble with internet forums is you get a spectrum of people who have very different opinions on feeding.

OP I would get a couple of nutrionists to come out, meet you both and advise you from there. Best of luck.
 
Why are you avoiding all the posts to do with working your mare? I think it's shocking that you even think it's acceptable to be riding such a poor mare, I can't begin to imagine how much that saddle was rubbing on her bones.
Also why are you ignoring the posts about your choice of feed? C&C is crap. Lots of people have told you this. Are you considering changing it for a more effective conditioning feed? Also 2kg is not all that much for a horse who needs as much condition as she.
Keep her well rugged, if someone was to see her and not this the full story, you could get reported. Sorry.
 
Not going to comment on other elements of the thread but I thought I'd add some info which hopefully will help in terms of feed. I've been talking to the RVC specialist about getting more weight and condition on my mare, who lost a lot due to a virus and/or pain from KS which has just been diagnosed.

She was rated a 2/3 out of 9 - although she had bags of energy, great coat, bright eyes etc., she dropped a lot over a few weeks and is looking pretty poor. But I'm afraid she looks a lot better than your mare, who does look in a bad way, sorry :(

Speak to your vet about a plan and a feed specialist. This is what RVC said -

Def agree with those saying that the key is forage - as much hay or haylage as you can get into her. The new grass will help. She should be getting 3/4 feed via roughage and 1/4 through concentrates.

Weigh feeds and count the calorie content - lots of info on the web to help you do that.

Veg oil is good for calories in small volumes, building up slowly.

I am using show improver pencils for a conditioning mix, micro linseed and equi jewel which is an oil based supplement. She also gets chaff and beet but more to bulk out and give her something to chew and non stop hay.

She has put on a bit of weight in the last 10 days and we ruled out issues like teeth, gut absorption, ulcers etc. after extensive testing. I would def try to make sure there is no underlying cause as you could fill her full of food and it still doesnt treat the cause.

Good luck and good on you for asking for help x Have to confess, I wouldn't post pics of my girl just now as am feeling v low about it all.

ETA - for the KS, she's getting walked for 15-20 mins a day in hand/pessoa and I won't get on her until she's looking a lot more muscled and well.
 
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Gosh the people who keep asking why she is working her... she isn't!! Shes taking her for in hand walks for goodness sake and leading her over poles. She said she is not riding her in her original post if you read it grrrr. With old horses they have to be kept moving! In hand walk for half an hour is not going to make any difference to her weight.. standing in 24/7 however will make her stiffen up and loose even more muscle.
OP it has been a really really tough year.
My TB is normally FAT over winter on just hay and half a scoop of high fibre nuts. This winter despite adlib haylage in his stable, millions of rugs and twice as much hard feed as I normally give him he really dropped off. Not like your girl, he's young and in work so kept his muscle but I could see all his ribs. I can quite understand how yours has gotten in this state and yes it shouldn't of happened but it has and now you are doing everything you can.
We have had the vet out to our yard because the horses have picked up viruses, not looked as good, had no energy to ride ect. The vet said this winters grass and hay/lage has had nothing in it after the heavy rains and little sun of last summer. Apparently hay they have been testing has come back with pretty much 0 nutrients.. so horses have been eating it but getting nothing from it, they may as well have eaten poor straw the good it was doing.
This would make sense to me as I have been stuffing my horse with haylage while watching him get thinner and thinner.
The thing is none of us knew or we would have got them on conditioning feeds sooner to compensate but everyone says fibre is the best and it is IF it is good quality!!
My boy has picked up a lot now he is on full rations of cubes and alfa a oil and the grass has suddenly shot up the past week and he is finally starting to loose his ribby look.
Your girl would do best on the spring grass, that will help more than anything else. I'd also add equijewel to her C&C, it is extremely dense in calories and is high oil, it's expensive but it is good! 2k of C&C are you sure you could not add more? My boy is getting 3.5k weight of spillers cubes which is 2 gigantic stubbs scoop full each day (split in to two feeds) plus half a scoop in his ball, could be worth asking if you could up the C&C a bit?

Good luck, I can tell you are doing all you can and i'm pregnant now with just 7 weeks and I can understand how you cannot give them the time you normally can, I struggle just getting in and out of my car now!
 
The OPs other posts (ie not this thread) have suggested she has been riding the mare, that is what people have questioned.
 
I'd say that it's fat and muscle that's missing. I'd not be working her, at last not until she has put on quite a bit of weight, but walking out in hand to keep her moving won't use a lot of calories....

Can you add linseed meal to her feed - the extra calories from that will help, and it won't risk laminitis as it's oil not starch. can she have haylage rather than hay?

if it's any consolation, she doesn't look as bad as some I've seen this spring, and ours aren't looking as well as I'd like either.

You know yourself how you've been looking after her so it's irrelevant what criticisms you get from here or elsewhere. If anyone was to make a complaint about her to one of the authorities, at least you could point them in the direction of your vet for proof that you're trying to sort it out.
 
I also think it's utterly baffling that you aren't more concerned that you trusted someone to feed your horse while you could not, and she ended up a welfare case. I'd be seeking whatever legal advice I could and certainly wouldn't have kept my mouth shut.. sorry but with that in mind and the fact you lied about riding your mare in such an appalling condition.. something doesn't ring true to me.
 
Maybe OP Has more than one mare.. She does state in first post friends were looking after horses plural!
 
She only opens it out hacking/hunting. In the school she's usually lovely to work with and she's come a long way. Yesterday I think the issue in the school was I took her for half a hack as more of a warm up/get canter out of system hack, before going in the school to pop a few small jumps (1st time since a bad jumping accident). She was "spirited" on the hack, but put that down to being in season, and couldn't hold her up too much as it wound her up more. Then when we got home and I turned her into the schoo, rather than stables (which is usually followed by food!) she started protesting and wouldn't do anything she was asked.
she's like jekle and hyde when she's in season! Again..this was a reason for the gag, I can step up and down a gear, and its been very successful with her to date.
This was a horse that tripped round the school in walk and now does poles in 3 paces, bends, spirals and surpentines beautifully.


The above is taken from ops previous post about gag bit...... horse is most certainly being ridden and op has conveniently ignore questions about this.... if she loves mare so much etc then stop riding her when she is so poor!

A rubbing numnah seems to be more of a concern than the fact horse extremely poor !
 
countrybumpkin85 said:
I only spoke to the one nutritionist :( I've obviously gotten some useless advice mixed in with the good, and listened to the wrong people all round. So what if I love her? I know there is something serious otherwise I wouldn't have risked being made to feel so crap in the hope just one person may have the key to whats causing it all. QB thank you thank you thank you, I'm going to be asking about that tomorrow with the vet. Its nice to have a ray of hope that an answer has been found.
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I'm sorry, but I really don't understand why anybody would go on an internet forum where you know nothing about the knowledge of the people posting and ask for advice when you are already working with an equine nuitritionist and a vet??

I have read some daft stuff on this thread, so I really think you would be better dealing with the professionals on this situation rather than taking advice from people whom you know nothing about and who may not know one end of a horse from the other.
 
Basically I was asking her to do a bit of school work and pop a couple fo jumps after a short hack (the hack being to get her focused as often schooling her when she's fresh resorts in her just not focusing and we don't get very far).

She wouldn't trot, just canter or a fast and messy walk. I took her over poles to make her focus but she walked/trotted them beautifully then as soon as she was free of them off we went. The refused to go past the gate out (I wont "boot or whip" my horses to move") so took her for some cirlces work and obviously decided she wasn't in the mind set to jump, she wanted her feed and buddies in the stable block (late gelded gelding!!)
Opening the gate she barged into it, kept trying to open the rider latch herself, so I worried she'd catch her reins/bit in it and freak. I opened the gate and she went to rush through before there was enough space. So I dismounted and walked her down, still jogging next to me and spinning round me. I was wondering if maybe she got into the oats store!!!!

Another quote from ops previous post..... truest words you have said is she didn't want to jump , she wanted her feed !!
 
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