Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case

quirky said:
It's asking somebody to take a massive leap of faith in taking shoes off a laminitic.

I had a laminitic who when his shoes were taken off was in so much pain he wouldn't eat, he stood up rarely and was generally a very, very unhappy pony. We tried frog supports (the rubber ones) but still he wouldn't stand/eat. It was absolutely heart breaking to see and I lost many a nights sleep fretting over that pony :(.
I was lucky, we got him on his feet long enough to have Imprints and filler in. This support was enough for him to turn the corner and he was on the road to a slow recovery.

He came back fully into work and I lost him to an altogether different condition.

So, Barefooters, how can you honestly tell somebody to their pony's shoes off when she has already said he won't/can't cope :confused:?
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No I couldn't , but I would never shoe a pony who was prone to lami as that way you can see any of those minute changes before you get to that stage and hopefully treat earlier.
 
My mare was diagnosed laminitic last March and it was touch and go at one point, I can only tell you how my vet and farrier went about things.

My mare is 16.1 warmblood cross and she was on box rest for 5months. In those months she had 4 pairs of Imprints then 2 sets of heartbars, however both the vet and farrier said she had good feet. I also rang the Laminitis Trust and joined the Metabolic Horse Group on Yahoo for advise. I fed her Happy Hoof and weighed and soaked hay, feeding her 1.5% of her bodyweight.
 
quirky said:
It's asking somebody to take a massive leap of faith in taking shoes off a laminitic.

I had a laminitic who when his shoes were taken off was in so much pain he wouldn't eat, he stood up rarely and was generally a very, very unhappy pony. We tried frog supports (the rubber ones) but still he wouldn't stand/eat. It was absolutely heart breaking to see and I lost many a nights sleep fretting over that pony :(.
I was lucky, we got him on his feet long enough to have Imprints and filler in. This support was enough for him to turn the corner and he was on the road to a slow recovery.

He came back fully into work and I lost him to an altogether different condition.

So, Barefooters, how can you honestly tell somebody to their pony's shoes off when she has already said he won't/can't cope :confused:?
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Because we hear it all the time and have seen time after time that if you get the diet/management right then barefoot works 100% of the time. That's not to say getting the diet/management right is easy because for some it's incredibly hard but I have yet to hear a convincing argument/explanation as to how shoes - be they metal and nailed on or plastic and glued on - can cure inflammation of the foot.
 
So, Barefooters, how can you honestly tell somebody to their pony's shoes off when she has already said he won't/can't cope :confused:?[/QUOTE]

Because you make sure that the horse is comfortable and supported correctly with boots and pads - there is no reason for leaving a horse in pain just because his shoes have been removed. The beauty of pads is that you can get them to where the horse is comfortable and adjust easily if necessary, once you have something permanently attached to the hoof you've lost that ability.

I believe the research of Dr Bowker has shown that it is pressure and release that builds a healthy sole, that is something that boots and pads provide.
 
quirky said:
It's asking somebody to take a massive leap of faith in taking shoes off a laminitic.


So, Barefooters, how can you honestly tell somebody to their pony's shoes off when she has already said he won't/can't cope :confused:?
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It is and tbh if you aren't sure how to manage the horse and don't have the appropriate advice and support it's very daunting and imo may not be the best decision until a plan of action and supportive professionals are in place. Seeing a horse in pain is hard for us and we want to fix it now so shoes often help this in the short term.
 
mrdarcy said:
I have yet to hear a convincing argument/explanation as to how shoes - be they metal and nailed on or plastic and glued on - can cure inflammation of the foot.
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Not saying they cure inflamed laminae, surely that takes time and the shoes allow the horse to be comfortable enough to begin that process.

You see, if you said, right, have Imprints on for 4 weeks (or whatever) in that time, your horse 'may' be more comfortable and be able to go without shoes.
Surely, if you have seen a horse in the throes of laminitis, you can see my point?
They have good periods and bad periods, why not wait for a good point to remove shoes rather than advocate taking them off at any time?


Clava - you state that you'd never shoe a horse that is prone to laminitis. I guess that means you don't agree with any horse being shod then?
 
amandap said:
It is and tbh if you aren't sure how to manage the horse and don't have the appropriate advice and support it's very daunting and imo may not be the best decision until a plan of action and supportive professionals are in place. Seeing a horse in pain is hard for us and we want to fix it now so shoes often help this in the short term.
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We cross posted but I am glad you have said this :).
I do wish that barefoot people could admit that sometimes shoes do have a place.

* applauds for amandap *
 
quirky said:
Not saying they cure inflamed laminae, surely that takes time and the shoes allow the horse to be comfortable enough to begin that process.

You see, if you said, right, have Imprints on for 4 weeks (or whatever) in that time, your horse 'may' be more comfortable and be able to go without shoes.
Surely, if you have seen a horse in the throes of laminitis, you can see my point?
They have good periods and bad periods, why not wait for a good point to remove shoes rather than advocate taking them off at any time?


Clava - you state that you'd never shoe a horse that is prone to laminitis. I guess that means you don't agree with any horse being shod then?
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Not at all, for the last two summers my tb has had fronts on, this year I hope not to but it is always an option. I only don't agree with back to back shoeing without a break and shoeing laminitics. I would only shoe a strong hoof not a weak one.
 
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quirky said:
Not saying they cure inflamed laminae, surely that takes time and the shoes allow the horse to be comfortable enough to begin that process.
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it's true that glued on Imprints are a whole lot better option than nailing metal to an already painful and compromised foot - how can anyone say that's ever a good thing? But I still prefer the option of boots and pads for support than fixing something, even semi permanently to the foot. With boots and pads you can remove them at any time and monitor how much the horse is improving. With Imprints how do you know if the dietary/management changes you've made are working?
 
I don't mean to say that I thought nailing was a 'good' thing. I was trying to say how I thought many owners choose shoes because they haven't the support or knowledge needed to take the plunge into barefoot unsupported. I also query whether taking that plunge with no support and knowledge of how to manage, then shoes may be a better option in the short term.

Many owners it seems end up taking that plunge when there is nothing else left except pts and that determination gets them through the learning and worry. It's such a sad state of affairs imo.
 
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quirky said:
We cross posted but I am glad you have said this :).
I do wish that barefoot people could admit that sometimes shoes do have a place.

* applauds for amandap *
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I'm a committed barefooter. I'm so committed that some people think I should BE committed :)

Shoes have a place when the owner is unable or unwilling to provide what their particular horse needs to be happy barefoot. For a small minority of horses this can be VERY difficult to provide and for many, particularly in spring and summer, it can be a bit of a nuisance.

Yes, shoes have a place.

But NOT in the management of a laminitic.


1) They mask the very early signs, so the horse can appear to go into acute laminitis with no warning when an acute attack might have been prevented by earlier action.

2) They reduce pain in an acute attack by preventing movement of the hoof wall pulling at the laminae and by taking pressure off the sole. Pain exists for a reason. It is there to stop the horse from moving while the laminae are so inflamed that they will pull apart if stress is placed on them. Mask that pain and the horse will move, with its weight taken on the walls/shoe (ie on the laminae) and not the sole and make pedal bone rotation MORE likely, not less.

3) NAILING to an inflamed and painful foot while making the horse stand on one painful inflamed foot? Barbaric.
 
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I give up :(, I'm never going to get a decent explanation and that is why the barefoot brigade are so bloody annoying.
You either cannot or will not answer what I thought was a simple question.
 
I can't see how the 'barefoot brigade' are being 'bloody annoying'???

Each person has responded with their reasonings as to why they recommend removing shoes. I'd also wonder why some are so opposed to using boots and pads, which can support as well as if not better than expensive imprints and filler, bearing in mind that over four weeks the hoof wall will grow and move the support further away from where it should be?
 
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You can't "fix" a laminitic hoof, you can only grow a better new hoof.

Laminitis is inflammation of the sensitive laminae, and the internal structures therein of the foot.

Growing a 'better new hoof' is totally oversimplifying the condition......
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Well if you can tell me any other better way of getting a new, sound hoof on that pony then I'll eat my own rasp! :)

You can't repair a damaged connection - you can only relieve pressure and limit damage or perhaps make it worse - it has to be replaced, and it is growing a new hoof that replaces it!

If you can explain how peripherally supporting a hoof where the laminar connection is very compromised, and forcing the sole into a bridging rather than a supporting role can bring benefit to a laminitic, then I'll eat my own hoof nippers too! :)

If you can convince me that it is acceptable to nail into a hoof that is already inflamed and painful, and indeed possible to do it without doing further damage, then I'll eat my own hoof stand! :)
 
brucea said:
Well if you can tell me any other better way of getting a new, sound hoof on that pony then I'll eat my own rasp! :)

You can't repair a damaged connection - you can only relieve pressure and limit damage or perhaps make it worse - it has to be replaced, and it is growing a new hoof that replaces it!

If you can explain how peripherally supporting a hoof where the laminar connection is very compromised, and forcing the sole into a bridging rather than a supporting role can bring benefit to a laminitic, then I'll eat my own hoof nippers too! :)

If you can convince me that it is acceptable to nail into a hoof that is already inflamed and painful, and indeed possible to do it without doing further damage, then I'll eat my own hoof stand! :)
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Lol - that's a lot of metal you'd be eating Brucea!
 
mrdarcy said:
With Imprints how do you know if the dietary/management changes you've made are working?
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This question?

I can only go on the experience with my laminitic, which was steroid induced :(.

When he was in Imprints, he was confined to his stable - if he had been ok in his frog supports, he would still have been confined to his stable. Any improvement would have been difficult to judge due to the limited movement/space.
So, I don't really see, if they are still at the confinement stage what difference it makes :).
 
quirky said:
This question?

I can only go on the experience with my laminitic, which was steroid induced :(.

When he was in Imprints, he was confined to his stable - if he had been ok in his frog supports, he would still have been confined to his stable. Any improvement would have been difficult to judge due to the limited movement/space.
So, I don't really see, if they are still at the confinement stage what difference it makes :).
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But your original post said that without shoes your pony couldn't even stand and with Imprints he could. You agree that the Imprints didn't cure him, just made him able to stand. So how did you know when his feet actually started to get better as the Imprints were only masking the problem not curing it?

The confinement thing is also an issue for me - the horse should be allowed to move as much as they are comfortable with. The fact some vets still insist on box rest for thirty days after the horse has become sound makes my mind boggle!
 
quirky said:
This question?

I can only go on the experience with my laminitic, which was steroid induced :(.

When he was in Imprints, he was confined to his stable - if he had been ok in his frog supports, he would still have been confined to his stable. Any improvement would have been difficult to judge due to the limited movement/space.
So, I don't really see, if they are still at the confinement stage what difference it makes :).
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Ok I am butting in for which I apologise in advance.

Laminitics are more comfortable if they can adjust the support under their hooves to suit themselves; which is why conformable surfaces are recommended. This precludes the use of imprints.

As the laminae are damaged anything which increases the likelihood of peripheral loading is unwise, which is why shoes are not the best idea. Especially as they also restrict the circulation which is required for healing.

Anything permanently fixed to the bottom of the foot will disturb the natural balance of the limb and this gets worse over time. This includes boots (while they are on), but at least these can come off when not needed for protection, enabling the hoof to wear more naturally.

All horses including laminitics need to move, for both physical and mental health. They also need buddies and restricting them to a stable prevents both.

I am sure someone somewhere can say this much more articulately than me.
 
I manage my pony in an acute attack by deep shavings bed in a barn. No shoes or pads initially. She can move around as she wishes and stays on the shavings herself. She begins to move more and then off the shavings onto the earth floor for increasing periods. Her mates are in the yard outside her gate btw.
When she is moving happily round the barn I cut and tape pads onto her feet for walks out. This gradually increases and she is turned out with non pushy mates during the day in pads, pads off at night in the barn. She has been able to go padless quite quickly this time out in the yard but I do limit who she mixes with because I have one quite pushy/bossy mare and I want her to be able to move at her pace not forced to trot or canter.

I've found this regime works very well for her. She is never totally in isolation as she can always see and touch her mates through the gate and is able to move at her pace with no pressure. I find she doesn't do the bucking and cavorting because she hasn't been isolated. I'm convinced this social contact is very important to healing, so is high on my priority list.
 
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mrdarcy said:
But your original post said that without shoes your pony couldn't even stand and with Imprints he could. You agree that the Imprints didn't cure him, just made him able to stand. So how did you know when his feet actually started to get better as the Imprints were only masking the problem not curing it?
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We tried frog supports prior to Imprints, it just didn't make him comfortable.

How did I know he was getting better? He wanted to come out of his stable. When he was at his worst, he was more than happy to stay in his deep shavings bed. I can't remember how long he was in there but I would say at about 8-10 weeks he decided he wanted a walk out, so that is what we did :).

How do I know he as cured?
I rode him for 18 months before he was pts and he was as sound as sound could be :).

Can't say if I'd persevered with frog supports we'd have got to the same point eventually or not as I chose not to subject him to more pain than he was already in.
 
Me again, barefooters! Remember, the one who posed the question about shoeing a chronic laminitic in the first instance?? :)

It looks as if I've opened a can of worms here but it does make very interesting reading! It's actually taking my mind off my poor horse for a few minutes ......

As I said previously, I do have a barefoot horse - a five year old ID who has never been shod - but the difference between him and the chronic laminitic is that he has beautiful hoof conformation and excellent horn quality. His feet are checked on every farrier's visit (approx 6 weeks) and he is trimmed accordingly.

When the heart bars were removed from my Arab X, he immediately started pawing the ground. My farrier (who knows him very well) said not to let him go down at that stage as we would be unlikely to get him up again :(

He spent a few hours last Friday without the heart bars (we took further xrays to see if the pedal bone had moved further) and he was really struggling barefoot. You could see his relief when the shoes went back on - he was able to move again, even though it was just to his water bucket!
Since then, I think he is getting uncomfortable again and presume this is from the pressure of the frog plate.

So, barefooters, if he was to go barefoot from here, please tell me how the pedal bone would be supported? He is on box rest at the moment on a huge shavings bed. He can groom his 'brother' through the connecting stable window, and he isn't stressed or particularly unhappy (although given a choice, I'm sure he'd prefer the paddock!). The farrier will be trimming every 4-5 weeks after the vet has xrayed.

The question is, where do I go from here? Answers in one sentence please, lol :D
 
OP - when you say you want a one sentence answer - do you really want one?

One sentence precludes the preamble necessary for full explanation. But...

The laminitic foot is most effectively supported by the use of a conformable surface, this includes the pedal bone, which can not and should not be the target of isolated 'support'.

That in one sentence is the neatest I can get it for now.

For a serious, more correctly explained answer - read the texts previously suggested.
 
One sentence?

Be guided by your farrier, your horse & your gut feeling.



I'm not in either camp, I'm a believer in doing what's best for the individual & balancing short & long term needs. I don't believe that any single way suits every horse.

Good luck & lots of prayers for you & Ollie x
 
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