Clava
Well-Known Member
Sometimes the problem with being guided by a farrier is that they are trained to shoe and often (but not always) look for shod answers and are not always well informed about alternatives. But this is only my experience.
Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case
- Thread starter madaboutollie
- Start date
Sometimes the problem with being guided by a farrier is that they are trained to shoe and often (but not always) look for shod answers and are not always well informed about alternatives. But this is only my experience.
bensababy
Well-Known Member
Again this all depends on the farrier, i tried every possible shoe/contraption on my boy, ended up being better suited to naked.. this is just from experience. What works for one may not always work for others.
Nari
Well-Known Member
We're obviously very lucky at my yard then because most of the farriers who come up are very aware of unshod options & will cheerfully recommend them to owners if they feel shoes aren't the best option. I've never heard a trimmer suggest shoes though .....
madaboutollie
New User
Yes indeed Nari!
My own farrier suggested I give barefoot a try before going down the shoe route with my ID and that was good advice and has worked well for him.
However, as you said previously, all cases need to be treated individually because what works for one doesn't work for another. Keep an open mind, that's my motto.
My own farrier suggested I give barefoot a try before going down the shoe route with my ID and that was good advice and has worked well for him.
However, as you said previously, all cases need to be treated individually because what works for one doesn't work for another. Keep an open mind, that's my motto.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Nari...
It may surprise you that some of the UKNHCP leadership team are farriers.
It may surprise you that some of the UKNHCP leadership team are farriers.
Clava
Well-Known Member
Well my trimmer has totally supported me when I had fronts on my mare and my farrier is very happy to trim barefoot. I was only saying that "often, but not always" they look for shod solutions or else many more problem hooves would be recovering by being barefoot and there would be less threads like this.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
But what we are saying is that all horses can have beautiful hoof conformation and excellent horn quality given the right diet and management regime. For some it's easy, for others it takes more work - a bit like with humans. Some can eat whatever they want and never put on weight, whereas others only have to sniff a burger and put on a stone. No horse is born with bad feet. All horses can have beautiful feet. But ypu've really answered your own question. Your ID has great feet because he has healthy feet. Your laminitic has poor quality feet because he's laminitic!
Do you really think that a small bit of metal can stop a bone belonging to half a ton of horse piercing the bottom of a thin sole? What usually supports the pedal bone in a healthy hoof?
In fact that's not what's happening at all. It's not the pedal bone that is trying to escape out of the bottom of the hoof, rather it's a sick hoof growing away from the pedal bone, in readiness to slough away so a healthy new hoof can grow in it's place.
I would urge you to read this article:
http://www.aanhcp.net/Bulletin 113 Mythos of P3 Rotation.pdf
It explains in detail what is actually happening within the hoof - very different to what most people believe!
touchstone
Well-Known Member
I can't answer in one sentence, but I'll cheat and say read this link (scroll down and it gives details about giving support to a laminitic hoof.) http://www.hoofrehab.com/bootarticle.htm
As for where to go from here, if I were you I'd be contacting a recommended barefoot trimmer in your area, and taking it from there.
As for where to go from here, if I were you I'd be contacting a recommended barefoot trimmer in your area, and taking it from there.
amandap
Well-Known Member
mrdarcy thanks for that link, I haven't read that bulletin before! Fantastic.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Which is exactly what happened after one of ours laminitic episode - the sole looked flat and filled then one day the whole lot simply peeled off - revealing a lovely new concave sole underneath.
The important thing for the sole of a laminitic is correct nutrition and stimulation - we found pea gravel a great surface - the 5mm, not the 10.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Are you saying that there is no such thing as a rotated and sinking pedal bone then?????
bensababy
Well-Known Member
riding_high
Well-Known Member
grrr i just typed out a long reply and then the internet lost the connection as i posted!
basically what i was saying is that my horse has been barefoot for the last year and has managed fine, ok it wasn't for laminitis but the last time i tried him barefoot he was literally unable to move, he would be hobbling in the field. this time he's coped really well and has recovered from his problems. i genuinely believe that the shoes (they were dreadful when taken off) were causing him so much discomfort and pain that it was a relief to have them taken off.
an old mare at the yard i used to be on had laminitis and had the sinking and rotation. she should not have pulled through but with the love and care of her owner she did. she removed the shoes and spent hours just encouraging her to move around her stable and then building it up to a gentle walk across the yard and so on. now 18 months later the mare is being used to nanny the youngsters and she's coping absolutely fine. again i don't know if the shoes being removed has been the main reason for the good recovery or not but i tried it and so did she and both horses have recovered against the vets opinions.
just to add that my lad had very thin soles, like i said he couldn't even walk in the field but i knew the shoes weren't right after the last time he was shod so i got them removed. his soles are now nice and strong and also his heels are improving. he had collapsed heels thanks to poor farriery. not all farriers are like that but the one i used messed my horses feet up.
basically what i was saying is that my horse has been barefoot for the last year and has managed fine, ok it wasn't for laminitis but the last time i tried him barefoot he was literally unable to move, he would be hobbling in the field. this time he's coped really well and has recovered from his problems. i genuinely believe that the shoes (they were dreadful when taken off) were causing him so much discomfort and pain that it was a relief to have them taken off.
an old mare at the yard i used to be on had laminitis and had the sinking and rotation. she should not have pulled through but with the love and care of her owner she did. she removed the shoes and spent hours just encouraging her to move around her stable and then building it up to a gentle walk across the yard and so on. now 18 months later the mare is being used to nanny the youngsters and she's coping absolutely fine. again i don't know if the shoes being removed has been the main reason for the good recovery or not but i tried it and so did she and both horses have recovered against the vets opinions.
just to add that my lad had very thin soles, like i said he couldn't even walk in the field but i knew the shoes weren't right after the last time he was shod so i got them removed. his soles are now nice and strong and also his heels are improving. he had collapsed heels thanks to poor farriery. not all farriers are like that but the one i used messed my horses feet up.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Soles need feeding and stimulation.
They won't develop depth or thickness without stimulation. Shoes deny them that stimulation, and worse farriers often scoop the sole and pare the frog which removes valuable protective material.
Sometimes you just have to get them through that initial 6 weeks when they are tentative on the ground. It passes.
My understanding is that as the laminar connection is disrupted the weight of the animal causes the pedal bone to sink and rotate. Toe growth slows, but heel growth continues - in an attempt to reduce the tension on the DFT and therefore lever forces - giving the pushed forward characteristic hoof shape. If it happens gradually then the laminae will stretch and give the characteristic wedge - if it happens quickly then there is no stabilisation and the hoof collapses.
The sole is similarly affected in that here is both pressure on the solar corium from a descending P3 at the front, but tearing force at the back as P3 tilts, but also compromises to the solar laminae with the same circulation reduction that damages the rest of the laminae are afected.
They won't develop depth or thickness without stimulation. Shoes deny them that stimulation, and worse farriers often scoop the sole and pare the frog which removes valuable protective material.
Sometimes you just have to get them through that initial 6 weeks when they are tentative on the ground. It passes.
My understanding is that as the laminar connection is disrupted the weight of the animal causes the pedal bone to sink and rotate. Toe growth slows, but heel growth continues - in an attempt to reduce the tension on the DFT and therefore lever forces - giving the pushed forward characteristic hoof shape. If it happens gradually then the laminae will stretch and give the characteristic wedge - if it happens quickly then there is no stabilisation and the hoof collapses.
The sole is similarly affected in that here is both pressure on the solar corium from a descending P3 at the front, but tearing force at the back as P3 tilts, but also compromises to the solar laminae with the same circulation reduction that damages the rest of the laminae are afected.
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MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Me again, barefooters! Remember, the one who posed the question about shoeing a chronic laminitic in the first instance??
LOL ! LMAO. Anyone who might answer your orginal question has been scared off by previous posts mentioning laminitus or navicular......
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The question is, where do I go from here? Answers in one sentence please, lol
You should think carefully, using the information given on this thread and other threads, about whether you can manage to take the personal responsibility and provide the very detailed level of care that a barefoot approach to curing your horse's sick body will need (it's not just his feet of course, it started in his gut) and if you can, then follow all the leads you have been given, read the books, and find someone who has experience of barefoot rehab of acute laminitis to help you get through this and if you can't, you should leave the responsibility with your farrier and vet to tell you what to do, which is psychologically by far the easier option.
bensababy
Well-Known Member
This has to be the most sensible post on here. OP just basically leave it with the professionals.. thats what they are there for. Without my farrier and vets advice i dont know where i would be with my Lammi.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
bensababy I do feel the need to point out that a considerable number of people who stick with the vet and farrier will end up with their horses put down, even more will never be properly rideable, and some will go through horrific treatments like sectioning the hoof completely unnecessarily. It's not that simple a decision, though one is certainly easier that the other because all you need to do is say to yourself "I did what the experts told me".
My post was not intended to be the unqualified approval of treatments offered by most vets and farriers that you took it to be, sorry !
My post was not intended to be the unqualified approval of treatments offered by most vets and farriers that you took it to be, sorry
!
AmyMay
Situation normal
*******s - now you are just scaremongering.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what Jaime Jackson believes isn't happening! Read the article Brucea - it makes a lot of sense. How on earth can the very flexible but delicate laminae connections ever hold the weight of half a ton of horse? It doesn't make sense - they simply aren't strong enough. Hence his theory of hemodynamics.
Also toe growth doesn't slow and heel growth increase - rather it's where the moisture in the foot is directed, like the rings of a tree - they are wider in wetter years and closer together in dry years. So in a laminitic foot all the moisture is directed into the back of the foot/heel and away from the toe - this gives the (false) impression that the toe is growing more slowly (rings closer together at the toe, wider apart at the heel). The ultimate aim is that the toe becomes so dry it simply breaks off, removing the sick/dead hoof and allowing the healthy hoof to grow down.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I think one of my posts was seen a bit that way.My post was not intended to be the unqualified approval of treatments offered by most vets and farriers that you took it to be, sorry
Excellent advice given by cptrayes imo. In the end, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it's all about responsibility to your horse. In the end it's the owners ultimate responsibility imo whatever we decide about anything really, it's just a lot easier to shift it onto vets and others.
Most of us try to make the best decisions we can at the time and looking back and regretting is not very helpful to moving on and learning.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Can we discuss this bulletin on another thread for learning? I found it really interesting and would like to clarify I have understood the concepts but don't feel it's appropriate on this thread...
Or do peeps feel Forums aren't a place to learn?
bensababy
Well-Known Member
bensababy I do feel the need to point out that a considerable number of people who stick with the vet and farrier will end up with their horses put down, even more will never be properly rideable, and some will go through horrific treatments like sectioning the hoof completely unnecessarily. It's not that simple a decision, though one is certainly easier that the other because all you need to do is say to yourself "I did what the experts told me".
My post was not intended to be the unqualified approval of treatments offered by most vets and farriers that you took it to be, sorry
As the same could be said a percentage that are treated by a barefoot trimmer? Each individual horse will respond differently to treatment, what works for one may not always work for others, all i know is i put 100% trust in the "experts" which to me are my farrier and vet - which so far have not ever let me down.
On another note - i have copies of my boys x-rays here with me, i cannot post them up here from work - but i would be interested to see what people/trimmers/experts make of them. Can email? or if someone else wants to post for me?
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
Have you read the article? It explains everything in great detail - would be daft me typing it out.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
amandap
Well-Known Member
A 30 page pm on it's way to you mrdarcy! Only joking, it's not quite that long.
Only joking, it's not quite that long.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
A much lower percentage is my impression bensababy. And if you consider that most foot-diseased horses are taken barefoot after vet and farriery treatment have already failed, then the percentage that come right is even more surprising.
I am glad for you that you have never been let down by an expert, I truly am. I hope that you have already reached your nineties and can say that, but many, many of us who are the most criticised for our profound belief in barefoot have got into this situation because we certainly have been let down by professionals. We have seen horses that they have said will never be ridden again work as if there was never anything wrong with them. Once you have experienced that, you never quite have the same faith in an expert again. I have no problems with experts occasionally being wrong, they are humans. What I have a HUGE problem with is the increasing body of evidence that is building up that shoes are not the right way to treat a number of diseases, which many of them are simply not interested in learning about even though they know it exists. Where, for example, is The Laminitis Trust research project comparing the outcomes of barefoot treatment for laminitis versus shoes? The supposed fount of all wisdom about laminitis, and it isn't happening. Perhaps they are too busy taking licencing fees from feed companies for recommending feeds which contain up to 10% molasses?
Ooh , sorry, rant over!
bensababy
Well-Known Member
I would be interested in seeing statistics and case studies that could prove this.. not meaning to be snotty - just a general wondering.
I have no issues with bare foot, as my post will say my boy is currently bare foot after a acute attack and this seems to work better for him. At my request (as i felt my pony was uncomfortable) i asked for farrier to try alternatives - which after a while proved to be of no benefit to him at all. In this case the "expert" was right.
brucea
Well-Known Member
v. interesting article. Can understand the arguments. A useful way of looking at it - and makes one rethink the mechanics. The "foot in a bag" approach
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't we all! But the only people with the money to pay for it, the FRC, The Laminitis Trust, whatever organisations the vets belong to, aren't doing the research, and until they do we are stuck with anecdotes. And until that research is done, only the brave vet and/or farrier will go for it, for fear of being sued if it doesn't work. They can't be sued if they use "accepted best practice". There is no money in barefoot rehabs, so there is no incentive for anyone to research it. Catch 22.