Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case

[amandap]

Looks to be an interesting research project. No support for barefoot vs shod I could find, and in fact there is currently no information on their hoof research.

I think the research is ongoing until 2012.

Interesting research, but don't see any papers relevant to the debate.

The relevance is the work Bowker has done that supports and is a basis for BF thinking and how the hoof works. Also the fact that Bowker collaborates with a few BF Fairriers to explain his work and barefoot rationale.

Seems to pretty much accept that managing horses barefoot is impractical, only their solution is glue on boots rather than shoes. If anyone can explain the difference between a glue on boot, and a glue on imprint shoe with sole filler then please do.

We're not reading the same stuff then. Ramey is one of Jaime Jacksons former students who is another ex Farrier. If you read his work ( Making Natural Hoofcare Work For You'), his book is reasonably priced and is a practical rather than theoretical book you will find he is very pro barefoot rationale and uses non stick on boots and pads to allow laminitic horses to move in comfort very often. I cannot explain any difference of a glue on boot to a glue on shoe, I have no experience of either.
I must have misread it then. I thought the glue ons were one option suggested which may be acceptable to vets and owners rather than nailing metal. Pete Ramey isn't a complete purist in natural healing.

Both these are regarding the nutritional side of laminitis. Any self respecting horse worker, be they a vet, a farrier or a barefoot trimmer recognises the importance of nutrition in laminitis. Just because I personally recommend shoeing laminitics does not mean I don't also examine the diet extremely closely.

I have lost count of the times I have read or heard vets have recommended restrict hay, no mention of soaking which is the most basic error imo. That's just one example.

I put the links up for people to read and follow other links to find out stuff if they wish to.

I don't believe Robert Eustace is a BF advocate at all. Has he changed his thinking then?

The vet and wet grass story I told was an illustration of the fact that vets are given to forming opinions just like the rest of us.

I take it that the huge amount of barefoot recovery stories of laminitic horses does not constitute a body of evidence even when vets are involved?

I personally don't know if shoes are a help in laminitis or 'cause' recovery. I do know that a barefoot do no harm holistic approach and trim will cure laminitis, the trim alone will not cause a cure but it may give some relief I believe.

 

[alsiola]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much

Methinks the lady has no sensible reply.

 

[soloequestrian]

Equally, while there may be an association between barefoot treatment and laminitic recovery (as yet unproven), this is not the same as saying that barefoot treatment CAUSES laminitic recovery. There may be a confounding variable, for example, it may be that barefoot treatment is associated with dietary change, and the dietary change causes laminitic recovery. The shod vs unshod state of the horse may make no difference, but because it is coexistent with a third variable it gets called a causative factor.

The bottom line is we cannot trust what we observe with our own eyes, I can't, you can't, no-one can. Unless the scientific approach is used, then the conclusions we draw mean nothing.

But you can say exactly the same about all the shoeing evidence - it's shod horses who are shod slightly differently. They can't say that shoeing CAUSES laminitic recovery. And actually, when you look at the shoes that are put on, they are slightly closer to the horse having a bare foot than a normal shoe is ie there is some support in the centre, which the ground gives to an unshod horse.

It isn't always the case that we can trust what we observe with our own eyes, but neither is it a case of always seeing a mirage.

Although direct comparitive studies have not been performed, there is a body of literature describing improvement in laminitic horses that have been shod. This does not exist for barefoot.

Does this demonstrate how clearly the evidence for barefoot approaches is overshadowed by the evidence for shoeing?

Same point as above. There is a body of either anecdotal or observational studies describing improvement in shod horses which are shod differently.
I just don't understand why the default position is considered to be 'shod'. Surely the default position should be the one that has been tested by quite a long period of evolution (and yes I know there will be an argument here about what we've done to horses in terms of selective breeding and environmental change, but the basic structure of the hoof, just like the horses basic behaviour, is unchanged).

 

[amandap]

I just don't understand why the default position is considered to be 'shod'. Surely the default position should be the one that has been tested by quite a long period of evolution (and yes I know there will be an argument here about what we've done to horses in terms of selective breeding and environmental change, but the basic structure of the hoof, just like the horses basic behaviour, is unchanged).

This is the nub I believe. As I said before there are huge implications for change in horse management if you take on a 'do no harm' barefoot philosophy.

For me the default has to be what the horse has evolved and we are the ones who need to change to provide improvement rather than continuing to trouble shoot problems that we are often causing.

 

[alsiola]

I think the research is ongoing until 2012.

So lets refrain from using it in support of any approach until it is completed and published.

The relevance is the work Bowker has done that supports and is a basis for BF thinking and how the hoof works. Also the fact that Bowker collaborates with a few BF Fairriers to explain his work and barefoot rationale.

This is the list of papers from his site. The only possible one with relevance is "Functional anatomy of the cartilage..." - I don't have access to this journal to read the paper.

Bowker RM, Linder K, Van Wulfen KK, Perry RL, and Ocello PJ. Distributions of local anesthetics injected into the distal interphalangeal joint and podotrochlear bursa: An experimental study. Pferdeheilhunde. 12:609-612, 1996.
Bowker RM, Van Wulfen KK, Perry RL, and Linder KL. Anatomy of the equine synovial joint cavities of the forelimb and the hindlimb. Amer. Assoc. Eq. Pract. 42:33-47, 1996.

Bowker RM, Linder K, Van Wulfen KK, and Sonea IM. Anatomy of the distal interphalangeal joint of the mature horse: Relationships with navicular suspensory ligaments, sensory nerves and neurovascular bundle. Eq. Vet. J. 29:126-135, 1997.

Sonea IM, Wilson DV, Bowker RM, and Robinson NE. Tachykinin receptors in the equine pelvic flexure. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 29:306-312, 1997.

Bowker RM, Van Wulfen KK, Springer SE, and Linder KE. Functional anatomy of the cartilage, the distal phalanx and digital cushion in the equine foot and hemodynamic flow hypothesis of energy dissipation. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 59:961-968, 1998.

Sonea IM, Bowker RM, and Robinson NE. Distribution of substance P binding sites in equine airways. Eq. Vet. J. 31(3):238-242, 1999.

Rosenstein DS, Bowker RM, and Bartlett PC. Digital angiography of the feet of horses. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 61:255-259, 2000.

Bowker RM, Atkinson PJ, Atkinson TS, and Haut RC. Effects of contact stress in bones of the distal interphalangeal joint on microscopic changes in articular cartilage and ligaments. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 62:414-424, 2001.

VanWulfen KK and Bowker RM. Microanatomic characteristics of the insertion of the distal sesamoidean impar ligament and the deep digital flexor tendon on the distal phalanx in healthy feet obtained from horses. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 63:215-221, 2002.

VanWulfen KK and Bowker RM. Evaluation of tachykinins and their receptors to determine the sensory innervation in the dorsal hoof wall and insertion of the distal sesamoidean impar ligament and deep digital flexor tendon on the distal phalanx in healthy feet of horses. Amer. J. Vet. Res. 63:222-228, 2002.

We're not reading the same stuff then. Ramey is one of Jaime Jacksons former students who is another ex Farrier. If you read his work ( Making Natural Hoofcare Work For You'), his book is reasonably priced and is a practical rather than theoretical book you will find he is very pro barefoot rationale and uses non stick on boots and pads to allow laminitic horses to move in comfort very often. I cannot explain any difference of a glue on boot to a glue on shoe, I have no experience of either.
I must have misread it then. I thought the glue ons were one option suggested which may be acceptable to vets and owners rather than nailing metal. Pete Ramey isn't a complete purist in natural healing.

The argument put forward earlier in this thread was that the only reason shoes are de rigeur are because they are pain-relieving. If you need to put boots on a laminitic to make it comfortable, then why is this different to using a shoe? BTW I am not an advocate for total peripheral loading of feet, I usually use sole filler to provide a degree of sole pressure. This is only my opinion though, so not to be trusted by either myself or anyone else!

I have lost count of the times I have read or heard vets have recommended restrict hay, no mention of soaking which is the most basic error imo. That's just one example.

The failures of vets in the past is not proof that barefoot works. Just because barefoot trimmers have a good approach to nutrition does not mean their approach to trimming/not shoeing the foot is equally correct. I always recommend soaking hay, and usually encourage testing the hay for its nutritional content as well. I think one point where we agree is on the absolute importance of diet to the laminitic, but this is not relevant to the argument of shoeing vs. barefoot.

The vet and wet grass story I told was an illustration of the fact that vets are given to forming opinions just like the rest of us.

Absolutely we do, and we can be just as misguided.

I take it that the huge amount of barefoot recovery stories of laminitic horses does not constitute a body of evidence even when vets are involved?

Agreed.

I personally don't know if shoes are a help in laminitis or 'cause' recovery. I do know that a barefoot do no harm holistic approach and trim will cure laminitis, the trim alone will not cause a cure but it may give some relief I believe.

If you have found something that works for you and your horses then stick with it, I have no problem with that. However, shouting "take off the evil oppressive metal shoes" (I exaggerate) at anyone asking for laminitis help is going a step further.

The "holistic" approach does work, but believe me barefoot does not have exclusivity on changing diet, exercise etc. There seems to be a view that vets/farriers nail on some heart-bar shoes, forget about the rest of the horse and hope for a cure. This isn't the case - I look at laminitis treatment as a three pronged attack - the dietary issues, the endocrine issues, and the foot issues. All are interlinked, and a particular case may have issues with any or all of them. Most modern vets will do the same. The difference is we don't label ourselves with trendy words like "holistic" or "natural", we just crack on and do it.

 

[brucea]

I just don't understand why the default position is considered to be 'shod'. Surely the default position should be the one that has been tested by quite a long period of evolution (and yes I know there will be an argument here about what we've done to horses in terms of selective breeding and environmental change, but the basic structure of the hoof, just like the horses basic behaviour, is unchanged).

I find it impossible to pick any flaws in that logic at all.

For me the default has to be what the horse has evolved and we are the ones who need to change to provide improvement rather than continuing to trouble shoot problems that we are often causing.

I think it would be interesting for us all to come back in 20 years and have this same discussion. By then I wonder whether shoeing will be seen as a tactical tool to be used when necessary, but the majority of horses will be barefoot and general widespread shoeing will be seen as a long term welfare issue and an outmoded practice?

Is 20 years perhaps too soon. It may take longer.

 

[alsiola]

But you can say exactly the same about all the shoeing evidence - it's shod horses who are shod slightly differently. They can't say that shoeing CAUSES laminitic recovery. And actually, when you look at the shoes that are put on, they are slightly closer to the horse having a bare foot than a normal shoe is ie there is some support in the centre, which the ground gives to an unshod horse.

I don't claim shoeing does cause laminitic recovery. I claim that there is more evidence supporting shoeing as a beneficial treatment for laminitis than there is evidence supporting barefoot trimming as a treatment for laminitis.

I just don't understand why the default position is considered to be 'shod'. Surely the default position should be the one that has been tested by quite a long period of evolution (and yes I know there will be an argument here about what we've done to horses in terms of selective breeding and environmental change, but the basic structure of the hoof, just like the horses basic behaviour, is unchanged).

Several points, some of which you mentioned:
1) Recent selective breeding has undone much of the work of evolution. Stick a TB in the Australian outback for a couple of years and see what happens.
2) Horses evolved to live in a radically different environment to where they live today. I have no doubts that for a wild horse, in its natural environment, shoeing is unnecessary and potentially detrimental. For the modern horse, in a modern environment, with modern demands, shoeing is often necessary. If you want to create a mock outback at your farm and keep your horses in a natural state, feel free. The rest of us will continue to live in the real world.
3) Horses feet evolved to maximise survival in their environment. Horses feet did not evolve to deal with acute laminitis. Wild horses with acute laminitis were likely victims to predators fairly rapidly, so there is no way that a horse whose feet were mildly more apt to dealing with laminitis survived to pass on that trait.

 

[amandap]

The difference is we don't label ourselves with trendy words like "holistic" or "natural", we just crack on and do it.

Oh well, if you believe 'natural' and 'holistic are just trendy then I will never see things the way you do. An holistic approach that barefoot uses is just that, the trim is only part and not the main focus.
You left out social and mental wellbeing in your 3 prong approach.

I'm just an owner but I do know what makes sense to me.

 

[soloequestrian]

I don't claim shoeing does cause laminitic recovery. I claim that there is more evidence supporting shoeing as a beneficial treatment for laminitis than there is evidence supporting barefoot trimming as a treatment for laminitis.

Fair enough, but the types of studies that people seem to demand on here as being required for acceptance of using a barefoot approach seem very much more complex than those being cited as support for shod treatment. The shod studies aren't controlled clinical studies, they are observational, and this is the type of evidence which is accumulating for the barefoot approach. There may not be much of it in peer-reviewed journals yet, but there is a lot of it out there in other types of publication.

Several points, some of which you mentioned:
1) Recent selective breeding has undone much of the work of evolution. Stick a TB in the Australian outback for a couple of years and see what happens.
2) Horses evolved to live in a radically different environment to where they live today. I have no doubts that for a wild horse, in its natural environment, shoeing is unnecessary and potentially detrimental. For the modern horse, in a modern environment, with modern demands, shoeing is often necessary. If you want to create a mock outback at your farm and keep your horses in a natural state, feel free. The rest of us will continue to live in the real world.
3) Horses feet evolved to maximise survival in their environment. Horses feet did not evolve to deal with acute laminitis. Wild horses with acute laminitis were likely victims to predators fairly rapidly, so there is no way that a horse whose feet were mildly more apt to dealing with laminitis survived to pass on that trait.

1) I would be surprised if the feet didn't improve. I would also be surprised if the horse had the behavioural experience to survive long enough to find that out.
2) I have a normal, everyday UK environment for my horses and their bare feet do just fine. As before, the default should be 'bare' and shoes should only be applied for specific, short-term use, for example to use studs for an event horse during the competition season. The vast majority of UK leisure horses wear shoes because for some reason we as horseowners are conditioned to believe that it's necessary.
3) Yes, but this has nothing to do with the shod/unshod debate!

Are you a vet, by the way?

 

[alsiola]

Oh well, if you believe 'natural' and 'holistic are just trendy then I will never see things the way you do.

The words natural and holistic are trendy, not the concepts. The concepts have been used for many years by vets, farriers, trimmers. These days the trend seems to be to label oneself "holistic" as if this is a different approach to that taken by your vet and farrier. It is this usage of the word that irritates me, not the principles behind it.

An holistic approach that barefoot uses is just that, the trim is only part and not the main focus.

In this regard, the barefoot approach, and the mainstream veterinary approach have much in common. I'm sure there have been failures of vets in the past to view laminitis as more than just a foot problem, but modern approaches do not suffer from this.

You left out social and mental wellbeing in your 3 prong approach.

Very difficult things to quantify, and very difficult things to improve in a painful horse. I agree though, it has been shown in humans that mental wellbeing is an important factor in many physical diseases. Perhaps this is something where more effort should be directed, although I am not sure of the role that the vet could play in this. If you have any good ideas on how to improve social/mental health in painful animals then I am genuinely interested to know.

 

[alsiola]

Fair enough, but the types of studies that people seem to demand on here as being required for acceptance of using a barefoot approach seem very much more complex than those being cited as support for shod treatment. The shod studies aren't controlled clinical studies, they are observational, and this is the type of evidence which is accumulating for the barefoot approach. There may not be much of it in peer-reviewed journals yet, but there is a lot of it out there in other types of publication.

All true. My personal feeling is that the key to the treatment of horses with laminitis is correction of diet, correction of endocrine problems, and correction of unbalanced feet. I honestly don't believe that putting shoes on vs. leaving them off a correctly balanced foot is of paramount importance. However, I do think a properly applied heartbar shoe can be a significant palliative measure in many horses.
If not shoeing horses is of long term benefit for treating laminitis, then I hope the day that this is shown comes quickly. Equally, if shoeing is of long-term benefit then I also hope the day of proof comes soon. I have no prejudice toward one or the other, I only recommend the one with the better evidence base. If barefoot gains a better evidence base, then I will gladly recommend it.

1) I would be surprised if the feet didn't improve. I would also be surprised if the horse had the behavioural experience to survive long enough to find that out.

I will differ in opinion with you on the feet improvement, but as you are almost certainly correct in your second point, I doubt we can ever settle this one!

2) I have a normal, everyday UK environment for my horses and their bare feet do just fine. As before, the default should be 'bare' and shoes should only be applied for specific, short-term use, for example to use studs for an event horse during the competition season. The vast majority of UK leisure horses wear shoes because for some reason we as horseowners are conditioned to believe that it's necessary.

I agree that there are probably many horses in the UK that could live barefoot quite happily, that are currently shod. There are also a good number that couldn't.

3) Yes, but this has nothing to do with the shod/unshod debate!

Well the original post was about chronic laminitis, and most of the previous posts have been about shoeing vs. not shoeing laminitics. My point is that while the horse's foot is great at healthy living, it is not designed to deal with laminitis.

Are you a vet, by the way?

You got it.

 

[soloequestrian]

You got it.

In that case, I can see why you are so constrained by formal evidence. It's a bit different for us as owners - we can decide on gut feeling, anecdotal evidence etc. with 'only' the threat of causing suffering to our animals if things go wrong, whereas you could be accused of professional misconduct.
The vet who operated on my mare's foot is an equine specialist. The operation resulted in the horse having a penny-sized hole right through her hoof wall, which widened out as a cone to the ground. It all healed very well, but my vet said that she should be shod at least until the hole grew out, or her hoof would split. I disagreed, and took the shoes that he had insisted on off as soon as they were due to be refitted. Her foot was absolutely fine, the hole grew down and I think I would have needed a sharp chisel to induce a split.
I was a tiny bit sneaky though - I didn't actually tell the vet that I'd taken the shoes off. The whole process is documented with photos, and I was going to send him them but have never got around to it. Perhaps I should - if you guys were able to share the practical outcome of barefoot management then it might influence more of you to at least make owners aware that the barefoot route exists, even if you don't specifically recommend it.
The mare also had laminitis as a result of the GA, but I put that bit of the story in an earlier post.

 

[amandap]

Very difficult things to quantify, and very difficult things to improve in a painful horse. I agree though, it has been shown in humans that mental wellbeing is an important factor in many physical diseases. Perhaps this is something where more effort should be directed, although I am not sure of the role that the vet could play in this. If you have any good ideas on how to improve social/mental health in painful animals then I am genuinely interested to know.

Well speaking probable 'codswallop'... thinking 'out of the box' and encouraging owners to do this. Encouraging owners to have their horses with a friend or having a friend in the next area with a divide where they can touch. Areas can be made easily with electric fencing even on concrete. I use sections of tree trunk drilled to take the plastic electric fence posts. These can be moved easily and provided the power is good and a horse is content escape is unusual. I've never had an escapee.
Stables are places where horses cannot see all round and if left alone, for a prey animal it must be inherently stressful. Smaller horses and ponies stabled that can't see out at all could have a gate instead of a door...
It's really using our brains to come up with solutions that fit in the particular circumstances.

It's a shame words (holistic and natural) that do have a correct descriptive meaning gather negative associations.

Eta. Re using shoes. Shoes by their nature require interference with the horses hoof growth and stimulation by immobilization and ?support as well as the shaping of the hoof to fit the shoe.
In a BF approach the changes in the hoof as it grows down are of great importance in seeing the horses response to dietry changes etc.
The hoof is trimmed to what the horse is saying so encouraging good connected growth to grow down.

That's my very basic understanding of the difference. It is one time when I believe nature knows better than us humans.

 

[alsiola]

In that case, I can see why you are so constrained by formal evidence. It's a bit different for us as owners - we can decide on gut feeling, anecdotal evidence etc. with 'only' the threat of causing suffering to our animals if things go wrong, whereas you could be accused of professional misconduct.

In all honesty the whole professional misconduct thing is a bit overblown. The RCVS deals with issues of professionalism, which basically comes down to being open and honest. If a vet is completely open and truthful with an owner at all stages, then they should be pretty safe. For example, if I recommended x-rays where I knew them to be unnecessary, then the RCVS would (correctly) come down hard on me. If I took x-rays and totally misinterpreted them, then the RCVS should not be interested, as long as my mistake was genuine and I was open and honest about it.
Misdiagnosis/mistreatment is really an issue for the civil courts, and yes it can happen, but to be honest its exceptionally rare that anything gets to this stage. The only case I can recall is one of a French showjumper, steroids, and laminitis. Fairly well known in many equestrian circles but certainly the exception rather than the rule.

I would never hide behind courts, or tbh even RCVS issues if I was certain my actions were justified, moral, honest and correct. I do base my actions on formal evidence, not gut feeling. This isn't because I am concerned about potential legal ramifications, but because I truly trust evidence-based-medicine much more than I trust my own gut feelings.

 

[cptrayes]

POINT ONE
I don't claim shoeing does cause laminitic recovery. I claim that there is more evidence supporting shoeing as a beneficial treatment for laminitis than there is evidence supporting barefoot trimming as a treatment for laminitis.


Several points, some of which you mentioned:
POINT TWO
1) Recent selective breeding has undone much of the work of evolution. Stick a TB in the Australian outback for a couple of years and see what happens.
2) Horses evolved to live in a radically different environment to where they live today. I have no doubts that for a wild horse, in its natural environment, shoeing is unnecessary and potentially detrimental. For the modern horse, in a modern environment, with modern demands, shoeing is often necessary. If you want to create a mock outback at your farm and keep your horses in a natural state, feel free. The rest of us will continue to live in the real world.
3) Horses feet evolved to maximise survival in their environment. Horses feet did not evolve to deal with acute laminitis. Wild horses with acute laminitis were likely victims to predators fairly rapidly, so there is no way that a horse whose feet were mildly more apt to dealing with laminitis survived to pass on that trait.

POINT ONE
As far as I can tell, there is no evidence at all that shoeing is beneficial to the long term recovery of a laminitic. There is only evidence that one type of shoeing over another is beneficial.

POINT 1.
I am certain that if you take TBs and put them in an Australian desert fed a high fibre diet and given plenty of movement that they will produce fantastic feet, just as TBs do in this country when given the right conditions. I speak from experience, having barefooted several and evented one affiliated after conditioning her feet to cope.

POINT 2.
I believe your evaluation of the original evolution of the horse is correct. But your conclusion as to how difficult it is to mimic what nature intended the horse to have - low carbs/high fribre/movement is completely wrong. It is perfectly possible to provide what most horses need "in the real world". What's more, dietary laminitis as you know comes from inside, not outside, and a horse whose feet are corrupted by its diet so that it cannot go without shoes is not a well horse.

POINT 3.
We agree. Modern horses were not evolved to cope with the way we currently keep them. I understand that there is currently an explosion of laminitis in this country, particularly in winter. It's perfectly obvious that this is being caused by modern ways of keeping horses - food stuffed full of sugar; ryegrass grazing designed for dairy cows; failing to let horses lose weight in winter, so they explode when frost causes high sugar or when the spring stuff comes through. I also believe that if more people had their horses with no shoes on there would be less laminitis. You can tell with a barefoot horse within 24 hours if it has had too much sugar, well in time to act to prevent an acute attack. Normally restriciting daytime access to grass will be all that is required.

 

[alsiola]

Well speaking probable 'codswallop'... thinking 'out of the box' and encouraging owners to do this. Encouraging owners to have their horses with a friend or having a friend in the next area with a divide where they can touch. Areas can be made easily with electric fencing even on concrete. I use sections of tree trunk drilled to take the plastic electric fence posts. These can be moved easily and provided the power is good and a horse is content escape is unusual. I've never had an escapee.
Stables are places where horses cannot see all round and if left alone, for a prey animal it must be inherently stressful. Smaller horses and ponies stabled that can't see out at all could have a gate instead of a door...
It's really using our brains to come up with solutions that fit in the particular circumstances.

Thanks. I am glad to know that this side of things is fairly well covered by owners, although I probably will begin to make mention of it when seeing laminitics.

It's a shame words (holistic and natural) that do have a correct descriptive meaning gather negative associations.

Absolutely agree. If used correctly they are useful. However, far too often I see horse owners using products and methods simply because they are described as natural or holistic, without stopping to think if there is any logic behind them, or sometimes if they ARE even natural products!
Equally I will admit to going the other way - I hear the word natural or holistic and my bulls**t detector goes into immediate overdrive!
Neither is a productive approach.

Eta. Re using shoes. Shoes by their nature require interference with the horses hoof growth and stimulation by immobilization and ?support as well as the shaping of the hoof to fit the shoe.

I have in front of me the textbook "Hickman's Farriery", published in 1977. I cannot find the exact passage but I know the book well, and one of the key messages is "make the shoe fit the foot, not the foot fit the shoe." This isn't a new concept, and no good farrier would even consider the fitting of the shoe as a factor when trimming a foot.

 

[cptrayes]

I have in front of me the textbook "Hickman's Farriery", published in 1977. I cannot find the exact passage but I know the book well, and one of the key messages is "make the shoe fit the foot, not the foot fit the shoe." This isn't a new concept, and no good farrier would even consider the fitting of the shoe as a factor when trimming a foot.

Do you own horses? One example of many.

I bought a lovely three year old ten years ago who had the most fantastic feet - wide heels, broad frogs, solid walls.

My farrier proceeded to alter his feet to bring his heels narrower, explaining when I questionned this that he felt the horse needed narrower heels to support his leg. What happened instead is something well documented in K C la Pierre's first book. His hoof grew forward in an attempt to restore the hoof/pastern axis - with the axis he wanted being the one shown by the first half inch of his foot, not the rest. My farrier increased the height of his heel to restore the hoof pastern axis in line with the lower 9/10 front of his hoof. In the end, I was about to shoe him with pads because his soles had gone so thin that he could not manage the stone tracks I do in his shod feet. His feet were by this time (3 years) no longer directly under his cannon bones, and therefore rocking weight back onto his heels and providing inadequate support.

There are PLENTY of farriers shaping feet to shoes instead of the other way round. In fact, if a farrier did not shoe any horse with a long toe by shaping the foot to bring the breakover back, he would be rightly accused of incorrect shoeing.

Perhaps the single biggest thing that shows the effect of shoes is the line of the front of the foot. Check a few out - the only horses that are truly coping with shoes are the ones whose feet, unrasped, have an unbroken straight line from the coronet to the shoe. Most horses have a different angle to the first 1/4 to 1/2 inch of growth. If the shoes are removed, this is the line that the foot will continue to grow at. If you want to see some very graphic examples of this process in action, check out rockleyfarm.blogspot.com there are some great ones posted in the last week or so.

 

[alsiola]

There are PLENTY of farriers shaping feet to shoes instead of the other way round. In fact, if a farrier did not shoe any horse with a long toe by shaping the foot to bring the breakover back, he would be rightly accused of incorrect shoeing.

I have no doubt that there are some farriers who don't follow certain key principles, but this is a reflection of the farrier, not the principle. I don't know quite what you mean in the second point - do you mean that long toes should not be rasped back?

Perhaps the single biggest thing that shows the effect of shoes is the line of the front of the foot. Check a few out - the only horses that are truly coping with shoes are the ones whose feet, unrasped, have an unbroken straight line from the coronet to the shoe. Most horses have a different angle to the first 1/4 to 1/2 inch of growth. If the shoes are removed, this is the line that the foot will continue to grow at. If you want to see some very graphic examples of this process in action, check out rockleyfarm.blogspot.com there are some great ones posted in the last week or so.

Maybe we are blessed in my area to have some great farriers, but I spend a lot of time looking at horses feet and rarely see this. I will certainly be keeping a close eye on it and will report back - I am x-raying laminitic feet tomorrow (although that horse has recently had a new farrier due to the old one doing an awful job, so it may not be representative).

 

[MerrySherryRider]

There are PLENTY of farriers shaping feet to shoes instead of the other way round.

What an unfortunate area you live in. Luckily, I have not had experience of this, but then, my farriers have been trained by Martin Deacon. Perhaps that is why my experience of farriery is so positive.

 

[cptrayes]

I have no doubt that there are some farriers who don't follow certain key principles, but this is a reflection of the farrier, not the principle. I don't know quite what you mean in the second point - do you mean that long toes should not be rasped back?


Maybe we are blessed in my area to have some great farriers, but I spend a lot of time looking at horses feet and rarely see this. I will certainly be keeping a close eye on it and will report back - I am x-raying laminitic feet tomorrow (although that horse has recently had a new farrier due to the old one doing an awful job, so it may not be representative).

You need to get down on your hands and knees so your eyes are level with the coronet band and keep the hair out of the way to see it, it's only the first 1/4 inch or so before the shoe takes over and alters the line. If you haven't seen the effect then it is only because you have not been looking for it (there is no reason why you should), there will be plenty of examples in every livery yard. Most of the horses that I have seen taken barefoot, mine and two friends, were like it. Most of my friends horses which are shod are like it and those that are not are rare, but some of them have contracted and very upright heels!

I meant the opposite of what you thought. That a farrier should shape the foot to the shoe if the foot is too long in the toe.

 

[cptrayes]

What an unfortunate area you live in. Luckily, I have not had experience of this, but then, my farriers have been trained by Martin Deacon. Perhaps that is why my experience of farriery is so positive.

I have seen this in Reading (two locations), Wokingham (two locations), Bristol (three locations) and South Manchester (one location several farriers and horses) over the years. I've obviously been terribly unlucky with the places that my horses have lived

 

[soloequestrian]

In all honesty the whole professional misconduct thing is a bit overblown. The RCVS deals with issues of professionalism, which basically comes down to being open and honest. If a vet is completely open and truthful with an owner at all stages, then they should be pretty safe. For example, if I recommended x-rays where I knew them to be unnecessary, then the RCVS would (correctly) come down hard on me. If I took x-rays and totally misinterpreted them, then the RCVS should not be interested, as long as my mistake was genuine and I was open and honest about it.
Misdiagnosis/mistreatment is really an issue for the civil courts, and yes it can happen, but to be honest its exceptionally rare that anything gets to this stage. The only case I can recall is one of a French showjumper, steroids, and laminitis. Fairly well known in many equestrian circles but certainly the exception rather than the rule.

I would never hide behind courts, or tbh even RCVS issues if I was certain my actions were justified, moral, honest and correct. I do base my actions on formal evidence, not gut feeling. This isn't because I am concerned about potential legal ramifications, but because I truly trust evidence-based-medicine much more than I trust my own gut feelings.

In that case, I think you are being very blinkered. Take the time to go and look at some hardworking barefoot horses and see what their feet are like. See if you can find any that have had barefoot rehab from laminitis, or from navicular. If you wait controlled clinical studies to appear, you will never have this approach in your toolkit because they are not going to happen, just as they have never happened for the current shod approaches.

 

[LucyPriory]

Not all vets agree with shoeing a laminitic horse - I include an exerpt of a veterinary article in italics below and have put the full text on a page on my blog (see end):

Veterinarians...my colleagues: recommending shoes for a horse before you became aware of the overwhelming evidence against such a practice is forgivable, but if you continue that practice once you've been alerted to its dangers and understand the concepts, you're courting contempt. As recently as three years ago, I was prescribing eggbar shoes, pads, impression material and other bizarre procedures--I can't do that anymore. I deeply regret that many horses died at my hands because I didn't know what to do to save them. Now when I see horses with similar conditions, I can treat them without prescribing shoes, indeed often without anything more complicated than proper trimming of their hooves, movement, and diet. Most of these horses are better in a short time. Better yet, by keeping clients' horses out of shoes all together as they mature, the typical, super-prevalent hoof problems will largely be a thing of the past. I encourage all veterinarians to become students of the hoof and experience the huge degree of personal satisfaction that is attained by saving that "hopeless" case, and see the relief in the eyes of owners when they realize they'll never have to shoe their horses again--the gratitude and admiration I continue to receive from these folks begins a journey from ownership to stewardship.

I implore all veterinarians to learn about the much better ways we have of truly protecting horses' feet with alternatives to steel shoes--the natural trim based upon the rediscovered and continually-improving understanding of the workings of the equine foot, and a myriad of different hoof boot designs with more coming all the time. Boots allow a horse's feet to have vital mechanism with every step, and can completely protect the feet. It's really hard for me to even fathom using a steel shoe at all because these devices are simply not offering anything beneficial to a horse...only harm. We can't continue to apply them and feel good about it.

Full text here: http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/p/barefoot-and-shoes-veterinary.html

 

[lazybee]

Hello,
I've just been reading through your post. It's evident here's too many people with axes to grind hijacking this thread. Some trying to make themselves look smart by cutting and pasting veterinary abstracts and links (they've probably just googled). Rather than give advice (which is what you asked for) Some especially the barefoot advocates probably have one or two horses or many of the same race that are happy barefoot. Myself I only have one that's happy barefoot, 'an Arab'; the rest of my mixed bag 'no chance'

Horses obviously come in many different sizes, shapes and breeds their hooves are all different. I currently have one prone to laminitis amongst mine. The first thing I did was get a baseline x-ray to monitor the pedal bone. Usually a few days rest on a deep bed is enough for him to recover (not fully of course) and walk about normally. Then he gets back to work slowly over the next few weeks. We had an Icelandic mare, who was flat footed when we got her. We had her PTS last year due to pedal bone rotation. She couldn't walk without shoes. we gave her three good years. Our farrier rasped the toe to take pressure off and fitted a thick leather pad between the shoe and hoof. Shod like this she returned to full work. However this was ultimately putting of the inevitable. There's no way to un-rotate the pedal bone or make the soles thicker. In the end we had to make the right but difficult decision to have her PTS when a horse (or any animal) can't be free to act as they should it's time to put you own feelings to one side and do what's right for them. In a nutshell Barefoot? mine couldn't walk at all. They have to be treated as an individual case and try to take little bits of advice from people who have been through it and see which matches your symptoms.
Most of the links in the earlier posts are trying to sell you something, plastic pads, special shoes, a book etc There are no miracle cures. There are however plenty of people who are only to happy to take your money; they know you are vulnerable and are willing to try anything and clutch at straws.

P.S. don't forget vets and farriers are only human too, they work in good faith; they aren't always right.

 

[mrdarcy]

2) Horses evolved to live in a radically different environment to where they live today. I have no doubts that for a wild horse, in its natural environment, shoeing is unnecessary and potentially detrimental. For the modern horse, in a modern environment, with modern demands, shoeing is often necessary. If you want to create a mock outback at your farm and keep your horses in a natural state, feel free. The rest of us will continue to live in the real world.

Though a paddock paradise environment would hugely benefit all horses physically and mentally it is not essential to having amazing barefoot hooves. You can get healthy bare hard working hooves in a very traditional management environment too. Don't buy it? Head down to Simon Earle's yard in Wiltshire. He trains and races barefoot thoroughbreds. In the winter they spend most of their lives stabled in a totally traditional yard. They get worked like any other thoroughbred in training - mixture of horse walker, road work and canter/gallop work on grass and all weather surfaces. And what are their feet like? 'Typcial' terrible thoroughbred feet? Lol - no way. I saw 10 different horses when I went to his yard, all different ages, some just started training, other racing fit. Every single one had the most incredible strong healthy feet. Simon doesn't use boots - doesn't find a need to. So what magic does Simon perform to have so many racing thoroughbreds with highly functoning barefeet? Is he a fluke?

3) Horses feet evolved to maximise survival in their environment. Horses feet did not evolve to deal with acute laminitis. Wild horses with acute laminitis were likely victims to predators fairly rapidly, so there is no way that a horse whose feet were mildly more apt to dealing with laminitis survived to pass on that trait.

Hummmmm.... not sure I agree with this. Everything that happens in a laminitic hoof is the horse trying to heal itself - how else do these natural processes develop if not evolution?


My next question to you is this:

If a horse has rotation or sinking and you don't put on a heart bar shoe in your thoughts the bone would just keep rotating/sinking. What happens when the bone penetrates the sole? If you did nothing would the bone keep rotating/sinking? Where would the bone end up?

Anecdotal I'm afraid but what are your thoughts on this? I was at a client's yesterday. One pony had suffered laminitis on and off for years. Up until 18 weeks ago she was shod in heart bar shoes and was basically hobbling lame and in constant pain. The owner had reached the end of the road and the next step was PTS. Then the owner got on the internet looking for another way - anything in her desperation. She happened along barefoot and found me. She did lots of reading and decided she had nothing to lose. When I first went to see the pony she was very depressed, no life in her eyes and not at all sound. Feet were a mess, heels horrible contracted. Heart bar shoes came off, conservative trim done, diet discussed in depth and changes made. I went to do the third trim yesterday. Shock horror her rotated pedal bone hadn't dropped through her sole! Lol. But surely once the heart bars were removed there was nothing keeping the pedal bone in place? Hummmmm..... hooves are looking much healthier, heels starting to decontract, lots of lovely new growth with a steeper angle down from the coronary band. But best of all the pony is sound, walking out over gravel even. Owner reports that her depressed and in pain pony suddenly has her personality back. She is happy, cheeky and bouncing around again, something she hasn't done in years. The owner was in tears the first time she lead the pony out and saw her sound. So why was this pony so crippled in heart bar shoes and so sound once they were taken off?

Don't get me wrong diet is hugely important but I have no doubt that this pony's shoes were making her worse rather than better. The evidence was bouncing around in front of me yesterday.

 

[mrdarcy]

There's no way to un-rotate the pedal bone or make the soles thicker..

Sorry - have to disagree. Soles can of course become thicker - if we feed a healthy diet for that horse and give the feet plenty of stimulation. Horses aren't born with thin soles or flat feet. As for pedal bone 'rotation' I know plenty of horses who have had rotation in the past and are back in work and working hard with it. So even if a horse get rotation it's no way the end of the line, far from it. Not sure why so many vets think otherwise...

Hooves are a very dynamic and ever changing structure. Far too often I see horses dismissed as having 'bad' feet and farriers saying 'oh that's just the way he was born'. Rubbish! That's like saying a thin horse will always be thin, or an injured tendon will never mend. For some horses managing them is more difficult - some horses are extremely sugar sensitive and for them to have healthy strong feet a very strict diet regime is required. But if a horse is eating what for them is an unhealthy diet (might be fine for a different horse) it's not just the feet that suffer, though those are the most obvious sign something is wrong. And it doesn't matter whether they are barefoot or shod - shoes do not cure dietary problems, they just hide them.

 

[lazybee]

I don't care about anyone's opinion and I'm not interested in having a debate. I am speaking from my own experience with my own horses. Is anyone else?

 

[Clava]

And it doesn't matter whether they are barefoot or shod - shoes do not cure dietary problems, they just hide them.

This sums up things for me.

 

[emmachiro]

I don't care about anyone's opinion and I'm not interested in having a debate. I am speaking from my own experience with my own horses. Is anyone else?

Tried to, not sure if the poor person who put the initial thread is even reading this any more.

To my mind, we're all passionate about our own beliefs and systems. I find it sad that people can't look at the bigger picture. The amount of pure arrogance from so called 'professionals' in the horse world is probably another reason why so many fail to get better.



What works for some doesn't always work for others be it barefoot, shod whatever.

Get over yourselves people! Perhaps the best possible answer is if the two schools of thought try to work together for once rather than being so sure that their system is the only system, and in the process confuse the hell out the people that are desperately trying to understand where to go next with their beloved pets.

 

[TGM]

What works for some doesn't always work for others be it barefoot, shod whatever.

Agree with this! Our old pony had Cushings and was a chronic laminitic - she was much happier and more comfortable in shoes, whereas I have known other laminitics where they were better off without shoes. Much better to treat each case as an individual than stick to the blinkered view that one approach is best for all animals.