Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case

AmyMay

Situation normal
Joined
1 July 2004
Messages
65,903
Location
South
Visit site
Perhaps the best possible answer is if the two schools of thought try to work together for once rather than being so sure that their system is the only system.

Funnily enough I think those of us who shoe their horses are very open to the idea of removing them if it's in the interests of the horse (have done so myself on two horses). However, those who promote barefoot with such zeal are never open to any suggestion that shoes (in some instances) may be a better way forward......
 

amandap

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 June 2009
Messages
6,949
Visit site
I don't care about anyone's opinion and I'm not interested in having a debate. I am speaking from my own experience with my own horses. Is anyone else?
Many people are speaking from their experiences. Some of the posters on this thread have seen many horses grow better feet with BF principles.
I only have one laminitic pony but have described briefly my arrangements for her...

Many of the posters have discovered this thinking through questioning when things went things go wrong for their horses. They have witnessed it's power and benefit for the general health of their horses as well as their feet.

When I say the hoof is made to fit the shoe, I mean the human thinking about what is best for the horses foot comes into play and immediately we try to be active in 'correcting' hoof shape, movement of the horse etc. etc.
I have read many many stories which describe horses benefitiing hugely from diet and management changes and the 'do no harm' trim that only allows the horse to grow the hoof it needs as opposed to enforcing our ideas of what is right for the horses hoof.

To see how hooves can change anyone can google barefoot hooves and see pictures and case studies galore...
For me it's the fundamental approach that I question the most, this is based in the thinking that the human knows better than nature.
Domestic horses are still the same species and the changes we have made to them by our breeding are fairly superficial in most cases. We have inflicted and perpetuated some awful genetic conditions by our selective breeding though. If domestic horses are so different form feral ones how come horses are in the wild at all in places like USA where they are all descended form escapees?
My belief is that domestic horses have many problems due to the way we manage them from birth. Foals are coddled in comfy stables and bowling green fields, what real exercise do their feet get? How are their internal hoof structures supposed to develop and strengthen? Then we shoe them at two commonly.

Anyway, I am just explaining my thinking not trying to give a lecture... :eek:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TGM

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 April 2003
Messages
16,465
Location
South East
Visit site
If domestic horses are so different form feral ones how come horses are in the wild at all in places like USA where they are all descended form escapees?

Because the ones with crap feet and other man-made weaknesses were usually the first to die and therefore less likely to pass on their genetic weaknesses to the following generations.
 

Clava

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2009
Messages
1,590
Visit site
Because the ones with crap feet and other man-made weaknesses were usually the first to die and therefore less likely to pass on their genetic weaknesses to the following generations.

but the ones today with "crap feet" you're assuming are born that way rather than become that way with what we do to them.
 

TGM

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 April 2003
Messages
16,465
Location
South East
Visit site
but the ones today with "crap feet" you're assuming are born that way rather than become that way with what we do to them.

Some horse do seem to have natural weaker feet than others, even before they get to the age when they are shod. You can even have two youngsters with different breeding on the same feed, same pasture and yet one can have weaker feet than the other.
 

touchstone

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
4,873
Visit site
I don't care about anyone's opinion and I'm not interested in having a debate. I am speaking from my own experience with my own horses. Is anyone else?

I am :D


"Funnily enough I think those of us who shoe their horses are very open to the idea of removing them if it's in the interests of the horse (have done so myself on two horses). However, those who promote barefoot with such zeal are never open to any suggestion that shoes (in some instances) may be a better way forward......"


I tried shoes normal and remedial several times in the hope of helping my horse; each time they made my horse worse. I think all the barefoot proponents would agree that shoeing probably is the best option if commitment to changing diet, environment , management etc isn't there. I think that many proponents have been on the receiving end of unsuccessful conventional treatments, barefoot is often a last resort, so I don't think you can blame people for being enthusiastic about it when it has worked where other methods failed.
 

Clava

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 May 2009
Messages
1,590
Visit site
Some horse do seem to have natural weaker feet than others, even before they get to the age when they are shod. You can even have two youngsters with different breeding on the same feed, same pasture and yet one can have weaker feet than the other.

That's interesting, I can't say I've ever noticed that with any of our youngsters, but then we did very little with them at a young age and so didn't test them on surfaces. I totally agree though that different youngsters may have reacted differently on the same grazing and management just as adults do.
 

MerrySherryRider

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 September 2004
Messages
9,439
Visit site
LOL ! Just recieved a warning from TFC. I have been censored by the Barefoot Brigade. Seems they don't tolerate people who criticise their opinions. Scary stuff.
Well done BB Button Pushers... first and only warning since I joined in 2003. Maybe this section should be renamed Barefoot At All Costs And With Unquestioning Obedience To The Cause.
 

AmyMay

Situation normal
Joined
1 July 2004
Messages
65,903
Location
South
Visit site
I think all the barefoot proponents would agree that shoeing probably is the best option if commitment to changing diet, environment , management etc isn't there.

And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.
 
Last edited:

AmyMay

Situation normal
Joined
1 July 2004
Messages
65,903
Location
South
Visit site
LOL ! Just recieved a warning from TFC. I have been censored by the Barefoot Brigade. Seems they don't tolerate people who criticise their opinions. Scary stuff.
Well done BB Button Pushers... first and only warning since I joined in 2003. Maybe this section should be renamed Barefoot At All Costs And With Unquestioning Obedience To The Cause.

What have you said to cause such offence??????
 

amandap

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 June 2009
Messages
6,949
Visit site
And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.
Yes, this is a problem when discussions are opposed in critical points. I for one do not think that myself. I know that the majority of horseowners are doing what is best for their horses. I also know that we are never going to all think the same way but listening to other views is one way I keep some sort of perpective and learn.

I did not report anyone btw. :)
 

peanut

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2007
Messages
4,464
Visit site
"Funnily enough I think those of us who shoe their horses are very open to the idea of removing them if it's in the interests of the horse (have done so myself on two horses). However, those who promote barefoot with such zeal are never open to any suggestion that shoes (in some instances) may be a better way forward......"

Having contributed at the beginning of the thread about considering taking shoes off my horse, the above is pretty much now how I feel.

LOL ! Just recieved a warning from TFC. I have been censored by the Barefoot Brigade. Seems they don't tolerate people who criticise their opinions. Scary stuff.

What a pity.
 

mrdarcy

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 June 2006
Messages
1,913
Location
La la land
www.rockcrunchers.co.uk
Some horse do seem to have natural weaker feet than others, even before they get to the age when they are shod. You can even have two youngsters with different breeding on the same feed, same pasture and yet one can have weaker feet than the other.

Just as you can take two human beings. Feed them exactly the same things. One might get fat, the other stay skinny. What's the difference between the two people?
 

lochpearl

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 October 2007
Messages
2,139
Visit site
I'm a committed barefooter. I'm so committed that some people think I should BE committed :)

Shoes have a place when the owner is unable or unwilling to provide what their particular horse needs to be happy barefoot. For a small minority of horses this can be VERY difficult to provide and for many, particularly in spring and summer, it can be a bit of a nuisance.

Yes, shoes have a place.

But NOT in the management of a laminitic.


1) They mask the very early signs, so the horse can appear to go into acute laminitis with no warning when an acute attack might have been prevented by earlier action.

2) They reduce pain in an acute attack by preventing movement of the hoof wall pulling at the laminae and by taking pressure off the sole. Pain exists for a reason. It is there to stop the horse from moving while the laminae are so inflamed that they will pull apart if stress is placed on them. Mask that pain and the horse will move, with its weight taken on the walls/shoe (ie on the laminae) and not the sole and make pedal bone rotation MORE likely, not less.

3) NAILING to an inflamed and painful foot while making the horse stand on one painful inflamed foot? Barbaric.

so if we are all lazy and don't have the interests of our horses at heart how come a lot of us have horses which are shod and aren't laminitic? I assume you are unable and unwilling to care for your animal to stop it getting laminitis?

The OP didn't post to get all you barefooters to try and make her feel bad and to go barefoot, she wanted help.
 

mrdarcy

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 June 2006
Messages
1,913
Location
La la land
www.rockcrunchers.co.uk
LOL ! Just recieved a warning from TFC. I have been censored by the Barefoot Brigade. Seems they don't tolerate people who criticise their opinions. Scary stuff.
Well done BB Button Pushers... first and only warning since I joined in 2003. Maybe this section should be renamed Barefoot At All Costs And With Unquestioning Obedience To The Cause.

Wasn't me either - everyone's entitled to their opinion.
 

TGM

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 April 2003
Messages
16,465
Location
South East
Visit site
Just as you can take two human beings. Feed them exactly the same things. One might get fat, the other stay skinny. What's the difference between the two people?

Well that is a whole can of worms in itself - seems to be some controversy over whether there is a 'fat' gene! A debate I'm definitely not getting into!
 

mrdarcy

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 June 2006
Messages
1,913
Location
La la land
www.rockcrunchers.co.uk
And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.

Not sure where you get this from... after all every single barefooter started out with shod horses. I had my horses shod for years - I think I was a pretty good and caring owner back then. It's just I didn't know what I know now and even more significantly I hadn't seen all the things I have seen now. I would never criticise anyone for shoeing and if you can find a post of mine where I have then please point me in the direction. I have never ever started a thread on this forum or any other telling people they should go barefoot. I only ever answer other peoples' posts when they ask for advice. And I only ever explain my thinking and how I do things and the evidence I have seen with my own eyes to back up the words. The reason we are all so passionate about it is because of how we've seen it work on our own horses. Simple as that really. I have plenty of friends who still shoe their horses. My OH, in fact, shoes his horse - I am working on him ;-) but it's not a source of conflict whatsoever. And I get on very well with plenty of farriers. Just because people don't agree on things doesn't mean you stop liking them. I vote labour. I have friends who vote Tory. I cannot understand for one moment why someone would vote Tory but I wouldn't hold it against them ;-)
 

mrdarcy

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 June 2006
Messages
1,913
Location
La la land
www.rockcrunchers.co.uk
Me again!

No one has yet answered my question about where they think the pedal bone would end up if heart bar shoes weren't used in cases of rotation but I'll ask another question...

what do people think shoes are doing to make a horse sound that wouldn't be sound barefoot?
 

quirky

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 January 2008
Messages
9,846
Location
Purdah
Visit site
Me again!

No one has yet answered my question about where they think the pedal bone would end up if heart bar shoes weren't used in cases of rotation but I'll ask another question...

what do people think shoes are doing to make a horse sound that wouldn't be sound barefoot?

Why do you have to resort to point scoring :confused:.
It's like being back at school :eek:.

It comes across as an 'I know more than you' na na na na na attitude.
Just wondering if it is really necessary :cool:.
 

brucea

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 October 2009
Messages
10,457
Location
Noth East Scotland
Visit site
Originally Posted by horserider
LOL ! Just recieved a warning from TFC. I have been censored by the Barefoot Brigade. Seems they don't tolerate people who criticise their opinions. Scary stuff.
Well done BB Button Pushers... first and only warning since I joined in 2003. Maybe this section should be renamed Barefoot At All Costs And With Unquestioning Obedience To The Cause.

That's a pity - sorry to hear that - it wasn't me either, you have to REALLY offend me before I push the button and I don't offend easily!

But I think your last sentence there is a bit unfair - I don't think any of the committed barefooters believe that at all. Remember a number of the UKNHCP leadership team are farriers- it is just that they are farriers that see there are other, possibly more effective, approaches.
 

emmachiro

Active Member
Joined
29 October 2010
Messages
47
Location
West Sussex
Visit site
Is there a farrier on here who would be able to give an answer?

If you're after an answer from Jo public who has an idea, but doesn't have training I'm not sure it's a fair question?
 

LucyPriory

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 October 2008
Messages
1,421
Visit site
Remember a number of the UKNHCP leadership team are farriers- it is just that they are farriers that see there are other, possibly more effective, approaches.

As were Jamie Jackson and Pete Ramey. And Bruce there is a vet up your way who barefoot trims too. Older guy, very interesting to talk to.
 

mrdarcy

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 June 2006
Messages
1,913
Location
La la land
www.rockcrunchers.co.uk
Is there a farrier on here who would be able to give an answer?

If you're after an answer from Jo public who has an idea, but doesn't have training I'm not sure it's a fair question?

I have asked both questions of various farriers and got various different replies but more input from farriers here would be great. As for Jo public I would expect some thoughts/opinions as to how shoes work to keep horses sound that can't manage barefoot.
 

amandap

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 June 2009
Messages
6,949
Visit site
And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.



From this post - time and again.

This cuts both ways though doesn't it? Barefoot advocates are sometimes seen as cruel and fanatical for making their horses go with out shoes.

No one has said anyone on this thread is cruel or that shoeing horses with laminitis is cruel. The thinking has been questioed imo robustly but it's how we each read into what is written that translates it to having such implicatiions. That cuts both ways as well. :)

Most of us have been in very difficult situations with our horses and are at a loss what to decide next and I know that everyone of us makes the best decision we can at that time.

I can't say I would never have a horse shod because I might come to the conclusion with professional advice that is best at that time. :)
 

touchstone

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 April 2007
Messages
4,873
Visit site
And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.

Not at all, in some horses the changes needed can be difficult to control or manage in which case it is sensible to shoe; it doesn't make anybody a bad owner, and I've never seen anybody be accused of that???
 
Top