Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case

[amandap]

I've mentioned Pete Ramey's book 'Making Natural Hoofcare Work For You'.
I'd like to quote a little bit from the beginning of the first chapter which echos exactly what I felt when I first read about Jaime Jackson's thinking.
quote from Pete Ramey.
"I was first introduced to natural hoofcare in 1998. A friend loaned me a copy of "Horse Owners Guide To Natural Hoofcare" by Jaime Jackson. I read it, hoping to pick up some new hoof knowledge that would improve my shoeing. That book made so much sense to me I didn't have to take Jaime's word for even one sentence. Somehow I knew I was reading the truth."
End quote.

That's one farrier talking about another farrier's thinking and findings.

 

[soloequestrian]

I've posted this before, but it seems to fit well with the current discussion:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/21stCenturyFarrier.html

 

[AmyMay]

Not at all, in some horses the changes needed can be difficult to control or manage in which case it is sensible to shoe; it doesn't make anybody a bad owner, and I've never seen anybody be accused of that???

Oh no, Touchstone, I think the inference was quite clear. If you can't accomodate your horse barefoot you are not committed and can't be bothered.

And that is what turns many of us off these discussions.

 

[Spring Feather]

There's no way to un-rotate the pedal bone or make the soles thicker.

This statement is simply not true. The pedal bone rotation in your horse may not have reversed but you cannot say that for all horses. My horse had rotation 7 years ago. I monitored the feet via use of xrays and photographic records. The final xrays taken showed totally normal pedal bone location hence complete reversal of pedal bone. Your statement about soles not becoming thicker is also untrue, as witnessed again by my horse's soles growing back to their regular thickness.

Like most owners of laminitic horses I tried everything and listened to all. My vet and my farrier worked with me, gave advice, listened to my thoughts and between the 3 of us we managed to get my horse sound. We tried heartbars, they crippled the horse and were taken off. Taking the shoes off and having my farrier (NOT barefoot trimmer BTW) trim horse in a particular way, going against traditional veterinary methods at the time, and making feeding changes all contributed to the full recovery of my horse. I was, and have always been, incredibly thankful that I was able to work with professional people who were willing to think outside the box.

My horse is old now and is retired for the most part however is still 100% sound. I have never had shoes put back on in the past 7 years and the horse has remained sound with no return to laminitic status.

So, I have no wish to debate this topic either, but I felt the need to put my experience forward, as you did.

 

[emmachiro]

I have asked both questions of various farriers and got various different replies but more input from farriers here would be great. As for Jo public I would expect some thoughts/opinions as to how shoes work to keep horses sound that can't manage barefoot.

But don't you see? That's like me expecting everyone to have an opinion on how chiropractic treatments differ from physio treatments, and to then expect them tell my why this difference exists, and be able to argue the toss either way if I question them further! It's just not particularly productive - don't you think we're going round in circles here???

Most people are happy with what they know works for their horse!

 

[AmyMay]

This statement is simply not true. The pedal bone rotation in your horse may not have reversed but you cannot say that for all horses. My horse had rotation 7 years ago. I monitored the feet via use of xrays and photographic records. The final xrays taken showed totally normal pedal bone location hence complete reversal of pedal bone. Your statement about soles not becoming thicker is also untrue, as witnessed again by my horse's soles growing back to their regular thickness.

Like most owners of laminitic horses I tried everything and listened to all. My vet and my farrier worked with me, gave advice, listened to my thoughts and between the 3 of us we managed to get my horse sound. We tried heartbars, they crippled the horse and were taken off. Taking the shoes off and having my farrier (NOT barefoot trimmer BTW) trim horse in a particular way, going against traditional veterinary methods at the time, and making feeding changes all contributed to the full recovery of my horse. I was, and have always been, incredibly thankful that I was able to work with professional people who were willing to think outside the box.

My horse is old now and is retired for the most part however is still 100% sound. I have never had shoes put back on in the past 7 years and the horse has remained sound with no return to laminitic status.

So, I have no wish to debate this topic either, but I felt the need to put my experience forward, as you did.

I think this is the most valuable and worthwile post on here.

 

[mrdarcy]

But don't you see? That's like me expecting everyone to have an opinion on how chiropractic treatments differ from physio treatments, and to then expect them tell my why this difference exists, and be able to argue the toss either way if I question them further! It's just not particularly productive - don't you think we're going round in circles here???

Most people are happy with what they know works for their horse!

But surely as a horse owner considering whether to use a chiropractor or a physio you would do some research into both, find out as much as possible and then make an informed opinion as to which you want to use? How else do you make a decision when faced with a choice?

 

[mrdarcy]

Oh no, Touchstone, I think the inference was quite clear. If you can't accomodate your horse barefoot you are not committed and can't be bothered.

And that is what turns many of us off these discussions.

Point me in the direction of the inference please?

 

[emmachiro]

But surely as a horse owner considering whether to use a chiropractor or a physio you would do some research into both, find out as much as possible and then make an informed opinion as to which you want to use? How else do you make a decision when faced with a choice?

I have to go to work, will get back to you that one.

 

[AmyMay]

Point me in the direction of the inference please?

I'm not trawling back through the whole post - by Cptrays makes it quite clear that to not go bare foot means that as an owner you can't be bothered, as does Touchstone a few posts back.

 

[mrdarcy]

I'm not trawling back through the whole post - by Cptrays makes it quite clear that to not go bare foot means that as an owner you can't be bothered, as does Touchstone a few posts back.

I've had a read of their posts and I wouldn't draw that inference but I'm sorry you do. I certainly don't believe people who don't try barefoot can't be bothered. When I had shod horses it was firstly because I didn't know there was an alternative. Then when I started to hear about barefoot I thought the principles sounded logical but I had no problems with my horses so why fix what ain't broke? It was only when I did get a problem with one of my horses that I decided to give it a try. And it was then I saw how much my horse benefited, how the problem that sparked it was solved and made me find out more about the whole thing. Only then did I realise how little I knew about hooves - this after twenty odd years of being around horses.

 

[DragonSlayer]

We're obviously very lucky at my yard then because most of the farriers who come up are very aware of unshod options & will cheerfully recommend them to owners if they feel shoes aren't the best option. I've never heard a trimmer suggest shoes though .....

Same with my farrier. He is fantastic, knows his onions and I'm happy in the knowledge that he spent many years in training.

If it works, don't fix it.

 

[AmyMay]

I've had a read of their posts and I wouldn't draw that inference but I'm sorry you do.

Then clearly you're not reading as closely as you think.

Cptrays: Shoes have a place when the owner is unable or unwilling to provide what their particular horse needs to be happy barefoot.

........ about whether you can manage to take the personal responsibility and provide the very detailed level of care that a barefoot approach to curing your horse's sick body will need (it's not just his feet of course, it started in his gut) and if you can. If you can't, you should leave the responsibility with your farrier and vet to tell you what to do, which is psychologically by far the easier option.

Touchstone: I think all the barefoot proponents would agree that shoeing probably is the best option if commitment to changing diet, environment , management etc isn't there.

The inference is quite clear. If you can't be bothered to manage your horse in a way that will support a barefoot approach, then really you ought to question your commitment to the welfare of your horse. This is what gets peoples backs up - because like it or not not every horse can go barefoot. And it doesn't matter how many times people say they can - it won't change the basic fact that they can't. And it has nothing to do with whether as an owner you are comitted or not.

 

[touchstone]

"I think all the barefoot proponents would agree that shoeing probably is the best option if commitment to changing diet, environment , management etc isn't there."


And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.
__________________

I believe that this is the post that you are referring to Amymay?

It is not slating people who can't provide those things, it is simply a fact that removing the shoes is just part of the picture, the whole kit and kaboodle involves long term management changes, and if those changes aren't practical for folks then as I said, shoeing is probably the sensible approach. Perhaps I should have used the words 'ability to' rather than commitment? My dad has all his horses shod, mine is barefoot - we get along quite happily together with no criticism on either part. In no way was I inferring that owners who shoe aren't committed or caring and I'm sorry that you read it that way.

 

[AmyMay]

"I think all the barefoot proponents would agree that shoeing probably is the best option if commitment to changing diet, environment , management etc isn't there."


And of course there is always the insult that those of us that keep shoes on a horse are not committed in anyway to the best interests or welfare of our horses. And just can't be plain bothered.
__________________

I believe that this is the post that you are referring to Amymay?

It is not slating people who can't provide those things, it is simply a fact that removing the shoes is just part of the picture, the whole kit and kaboodle involves long term management changes, and if those changes aren't practical for folks then as I said, shoeing is probably the sensible approach. Perhaps I should have used the words 'ability to' rather than commitment? My dad has all his horses shod, mine is barefoot - we get along quite happily together with no criticism on either part. In no way was I inferring that owners who shoe aren't committed or caring and I'm sorry that you read it that way.

Ability / Comittment essentially the meaning is the same. And I think that is very unfair and blinkered view to take.

 

[touchstone]

Ability / Comittment essentially the meaning is the same. And I think that is very unfair and blinkered view to take.

Unfair and blinkered? I am confused now - I am essentially saying that yes. sometimes barefoot isn't right for some horses and owners and in those circumstances it is better to shoe. Rather that than remain barefoot at all costs, which is what we seem to be getting accused of too!
If you haven't the means to keep a horse sound and comfortable without shoes because of contraints in how you have to manage your horse it is hardly the owners fault and I have never said that it was. There are horses that are just difficult to take/keep barefoot, and there's nothing wrong with shoeing then either imho.
I shall bow out of this thread as it seems I am just aggravating people unintentionally.

 

[LizzieJ]

At the advice of my vet and farrier 4 years ago, we took my tbs shoes off. She didn't have laminitis but did have dreadful stereotypical tb feet. We changed her diet too and 18 months later she was till lame despite the repeated efforts of my vet and farrier (alongside a barefoot trimmer too) her feet did not cope without shoes even without working so we put shoes back on her. She is now shod and sound but it took three years from taking the shoes off until she was - her feet had got so bad we couldn't keep shoes on her really after that 18 months.

My hunter wears her shoes out in less than 7 days in the winter - she has very good typical native pony feet ( I think it's the Dales pony stomp that makes her so heavy on them) despite being 17hh and no soundness issues. Luckily her feet do cope with such regular shoeing fine but I can't see how she could hunt without shoes no matter how hard her feet got seeing as the tungsten tipped nails only give me an extra day or two!

I don't have a school and my hacking is all on stony tracks or roads so even our unshod ponies when we were kids ended up being shod as we got older because despite being unshod for years they got sore the more we did with them.

 

[AmyMay]

Unfair and blinkered? I am confused now - I am essentially saying that yes. sometimes barefoot isn't right for some horses and owners and in those circumstances it is better to shoe. Rather that than remain barefoot at all costs, which is what we seem to be getting accused of too!
If you haven't the means to keep a horse sound and comfortable without shoes because of contraints in how you have to manage your horse it is hardly the owners fault and I have never said that it was. There are horses that are just difficult to take/keep barefoot, and there's nothing wrong with shoeing then either imho.
I shall bow out of this thread as it seems I am just aggravating people unintentionally.

But you are still saying the same thing because of contraints in how you have to manage your horse.

 

[LizzieJ]

But you are still saying the same thing because of contraints in how you have to manage your horse.

Maybe that means wanting to work them if they don't really cope with it

 

[lazybee]

amymay I agree with you completely but I lost interest way back. You are dealing with people with a closed mind, probably with one horse or a couple of the same type. They've read a couple of books and surfed the net, now they're experts. Best to sit back and laugh at their ludicrous statements. I am

 

[soloequestrian]

amymay I agree with you completely but I lost interest way back. You are dealing with people with a closed mind, probably with one horse or a couple of the same type. They've read a couple of books and surfed the net, now they're experts. Best to sit back and laugh at their ludicrous statements. I am

Um, troll?

 

[MerrySherryRider]

amymay I agree with you completely but I lost interest way back. You are dealing with people with a closed mind, probably with one horse or a couple of the same type. They've read a couple of books and surfed the net, now they're experts. Best to sit back and laugh at their ludicrous statements. I am

Ditto this. What concerns me is that some posters, feeling vunerable with a lame horse may read some of the claims/attitudes that have been made on this and previous threads by the more extreme barefooters,and might be influenced by it when it is to the detrement of their horse. The mantra, 'Do no harm' is incorrect. There is such a concept as doing harm by omission.
There also seems to be an implication that if you don't have time to 'do barefoot', you take the easy option and slap shoes on. Hooves have to cared for whether shod or unshod, the same holistic approach applies to keeping horses healthy and sound.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Um, troll?

Why ? Because her opinion differs to yours ? Any more button pushing to be done then, anyone?

 

[lazybee]

Um, troll?

Not at all. Go back and have look at some of the other pages and you'll see what I mean.

 

[soloequestrian]

Not at all. Go back and have look at some of the other pages and you'll see what I mean.

I've read the whole thing, and haven't seen any ludicrous statements from people who have a positive opinion of barefoot. I don't see any of them saying that they are laughing at the Shod Brigade, or saying that people who shoe their horses are closed minded. I don't understand why what started as an interesting debate has turned into a slagging-off-barefoot thread again. All I see from the barefoot people is a real determination to get useful information over to horseowners who perhaps haven't had access to it before. If they then want to research it and discard it, that's up to them, but none of this is ridiculous. What I see from some of those who are 'against' barefoot are personal insults - I don't particularly want to go into my background on a public forum but it's definitely a lot more than reading a few books on the topic, and in no way do I consider myself an expert.

 

[LizzieJ]

I think it's the insinuation that every horse would happily go barefoot if they were managed correctly which is simply not true ime.

 

[lazybee]

I've read the whole thing, and haven't seen any ludicrous statements from people who have a positive opinion of barefoot. I don't see any of them saying that they are laughing at the Shod Brigade, or saying that people who shoe their horses are closed minded. I don't understand why what started as an interesting debate has turned into a slagging-off-barefoot thread again. All I see from the barefoot people is a real determination to get useful information over to horseowners who perhaps haven't had access to it before. If they then want to research it and discard it, that's up to them, but none of this is ridiculous. What I see from some of those who are 'against' barefoot are personal insults - I don't particularly want to go into my background on a public forum but it's definitely a lot more than reading a few books on the topic, and in no way do I consider myself an expert.

I need to say I have a barefoot horse, he's a Arab and has been barefoot all his life he's NEVER been trimmed either. his hooves are as hard as iron and a perfect shape. I have tried with the others, as obviously it would be great benefit for me if they were all the same; it just isn't possible. It depends how much the horses are used. If I want to take them out every day their hooves wear too fast (apart for the arab), so they need shoes, simple. They aren't ornaments in the field and are worked every day. Some hooves work harden, some don't.

 

[cptrayes]

At the advice of my vet and farrier 4 years ago, we took my tbs shoes off. She didn't have laminitis but did have dreadful stereotypical tb feet. We changed her diet too and 18 months later she was till lame despite the repeated efforts of my vet and farrier (alongside a barefoot trimmer too) her feet did not cope without shoes even without working so we put shoes back on her. She is now shod and sound but it took three years from taking the shoes off until she was - her feet had got so bad we couldn't keep shoes on her really after that 18 months.

My hunter wears her shoes out in less than 7 days in the winter - she has very good typical native pony feet ( I think it's the Dales pony stomp that makes her so heavy on them) despite being 17hh and no soundness issues. Luckily her feet do cope with such regular shoeing fine but I can't see how she could hunt without shoes no matter how hard her feet got seeing as the tungsten tipped nails only give me an extra day or two!

I don't have a school and my hacking is all on stony tracks or roads so even our unshod ponies when we were kids ended up being shod as we got older because despite being unshod for years they got sore the more we did with them.

It is quite possible that your hunter would cope if you built up to the hours over a long enough time. Material science is littered with examples where it is the harder material which wears, not the softer - think of how a barber sharpens a cut-throat razor on a leather strop and you'll see what I'm getting at. The softer material of her horn might well wear less than the hard metal of a shoe, particularly if taking off her shoes allows her to be more light-footed.

 

[LizzieJ]

I don't know but at 3 she used to wear her feet down so much it made her lame and she wasn't working then so she's been shod ever since she was broken and is 16 now

 

[amandap]

amymay I agree with you completely but I lost interest way back. You are dealing with people with a closed mind, probably with one horse or a couple of the same type. They've read a couple of books and surfed the net, now they're experts. Best to sit back and laugh at their ludicrous statements. I am

Charming. I'll take myself off then. I am a bit insulted my beliefs are the subject of mirth. I can't say I'm glad some of us have made you laugh but at least you've got something positive out of reading this thread.