Fii
Well-Known Member
But not all laminitis starts in the gut does it?
What about concussion, from hard ground, and stress from foaling, or injury, these can all bring on laminitis, or are you saying that all these start from the gut as well ?
Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case
- Thread starter madaboutollie
- Start date
But not all laminitis starts in the gut does it?
What about concussion, from hard ground, and stress from foaling, or injury, these can all bring on laminitis, or are you saying that all these start from the gut as well ?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The inference is what you read into it and not what I wrote. If you cannot or will not does not mean "if you can't be bothered" and I would never say such a thing.
Let me give an example. I have a horse who cannot eat grass. It causes him big health problems but among them is an inability to grow feet strong enough to go without shoes. Unfortunately for him shoes cripple him with navicular. So, I reached a stage where I "will not" give him a life without grass. I could, but he's not a horse I care enough about to go through that kind of expense and trouble. After curing his navicular and the health issues by removing him from grass and working hard with his issues for six months, thereby saving his life, I gave him away to people who were happy to provide what he needs.
There are many, many horses who could successfully go barefoot if their owners could take them off the grass during daylight hours in the summer. The person who is in a livery yard who chooses to keep the horse turned out 24/7 and therefore has to shoe, chooses to shoe. They "will not" provide what their horse needs but I make no judgement on their choice. It is YOU reading a judgement into it.
If someone "cannot" provide what a horse needs then they cannot. There is no judgement inherent in that statement either. Again, it is you reading a judgement into it.
I, in turn, cannot change facts which are facts. And the fact is that the barefoot community are unanimous that their experience is that the majority of horses, though not all, who cannot walk across stones barefoot after a careful rehab have problems with their diet. They have something wrong with their digestive systems that is preventing their bodies from working properly to build them hard strong feet. They have a low grade disease. If owners choose to shoe and mask the symtoms rather than address the cause of it, then it is their right to make that choice when the vast majority of horses will cope perfectly well with being shod. If you find it offensive that I am suggesting that your horse may have a low grade level of laminitis if it cannot manage barefoot, then so be it, but you extrapolate to a level of criticism which was not present in what I wrote.
Last edited:
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Interesting point regarding hard/soft wearing CP.
Old endurance mare used to wear through her shoes complete with titanium tips in 3 weeks. The boots she wore for transition I still have, still with tread, over 10 years old, and so clumsy in comparison to the newer models. She was fine unshod until the day I had her PTS with Cushings. Best legs on any horse I've ever seen or probably ever will. Miss her still.
Current horse I have is the most difficult I've experienced in 15+ years of barefoot (although she has great legs too).
This horse has feet of iron (major effort to trim) but has hind gut problems which are largely set off by diet (relatively easy to fix) and stress (which is hard because I can not control the circumstances which cause it at the moment). And of course these impact on her solar corium causing inflammation which can make her footy at times. At least though I get an early warning sign so I can take steps to prevent her previous chronic lami returning.
But even so when she was in work during the summer she managed just about everything and would have done better if I could have put more effort into her.
As the last farrier she was introduced to hit her over the head and previously she has been roped and thrown shoeing is not really an option.
I should add she is pretty easy to handle but partly because of the above I am very choosy about who is allowed to.
So to fix the lami she arrived with I pulled her shoes (under very heavy sedation) and took it from there.
Old endurance mare used to wear through her shoes complete with titanium tips in 3 weeks. The boots she wore for transition I still have, still with tread, over 10 years old, and so clumsy in comparison to the newer models. She was fine unshod until the day I had her PTS with Cushings. Best legs on any horse I've ever seen or probably ever will. Miss her still.
Current horse I have is the most difficult I've experienced in 15+ years of barefoot (although she has great legs too).
This horse has feet of iron (major effort to trim) but has hind gut problems which are largely set off by diet (relatively easy to fix) and stress (which is hard because I can not control the circumstances which cause it at the moment). And of course these impact on her solar corium causing inflammation which can make her footy at times. At least though I get an early warning sign so I can take steps to prevent her previous chronic lami returning.
But even so when she was in work during the summer she managed just about everything and would have done better if I could have put more effort into her.
As the last farrier she was introduced to hit her over the head and previously she has been roped and thrown shoeing is not really an option.
I should add she is pretty easy to handle but partly because of the above I am very choosy about who is allowed to.
So to fix the lami she arrived with I pulled her shoes (under very heavy sedation) and took it from there.
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The thread is about a dietary laminitic and what the owner should do now. Of course there are other causes. Do you think I'm an idiot
?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I don't know but at 3 she used to wear her feet down so much it made her lame and she wasn't working then so she's been shod ever since she was broken and is 16 now
Don't fix what ain't broke
! It's people shoeing sound 3 year olds for no real reason that I have a problem with, not lame ones. But I don't envy you your shoeing bill , my Shirex 17hh hunter is zero cost thank goodness!
Last edited:
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
I believe they do. The exact biochemical pathway of laminitis is still being researched, but it is generally agreed it starts in the caecum.
Acidosis, which can be caused by stress, diet, retained placenta or any other form of toxic input can create an inhospitable environment for the bacteria which digest the fiborous content of hay etc. These then die off.
To cut a long and complex and unfinished story short - this eventually causes inflammation of the coria and disruption of the lamellar bonds. At this point depending on the amount of damage you will get laminitis, or LGL or somewhere in between.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
My horses are endurance horses - I take them out everyday and compete all summer. They still have plenty of hoof left as growth = wear. I have clients with horses of all different types from shetlands to warmbloods to thoroughbreds. And if you look back at my post about Simon Earle and his thoroughbred race horses that is another example of hard working horses that don't need shoes... thoroughbreds at that. Who would have thought that possible?
LizzieJ
Well-Known Member
Don't fix what ain't broke
Yes the bill is a bit
She even manages to wear them out on her summer holiday in the field...
emmachiro
Active Member
Sorry, know we've moved on from here but wanted to answer Mr Darcy
Second Quote "But surely as a horse owner considering whether to use a chiropractor or a physio you would do some research into both, find out as much as possible and then make an informed opinion as to which you want to use? How else do you make a decision when faced with a choice?"
Re decision when faced with a choice, of course you research into both, most people speak to their vet, their friends or look on the internet. You make a choice, see if it works, then change and research again if it doesn't work. Some horse owners try physio first, then change to chiro or vice versa, depending on what works best. That's not exactly rocket science. I was putting the context of your question into my field, and on the basis of that found your question rather obtuse.
My problem with your original question "what do people think shoes are doing to make a horse sound that wouldn't be sound barefoot?[/QUOTE]".... is that Jo public has a fairly good idea how feet work on a superficial level (no offence meant to anyone).
But do they know enough about the true mechanics, neurology, proprioceptive feedback, vascular system, systemic issues such as cushings on toxicity levels etc to be able to answer your question? I would say no. How about ligament structure, stay apparatus, breakover, medio-lateral balance, the importance of the frog, concussion/forces? And that's just from the top of my head with regards to how feet work and how we treat them subsequently.
So if people don't have a true understanding of anatomy, neurology etc how the hell can they be in a position to comfortably answer your question about what it means to the above when you have a shoe on a horse's foot, or when you let it go barefoot?
Hence I don't see what you're trying to achieve by asking a question that you would expect to see on a finals exam paper on this forum? What's the point?
Can't fault you on your passion, but have to say that you are in danger of coming across like you're trying too hard. And I sit on the fence re shoeing/barefoot btw.
Second Quote "But surely as a horse owner considering whether to use a chiropractor or a physio you would do some research into both, find out as much as possible and then make an informed opinion as to which you want to use? How else do you make a decision when faced with a choice?"
Re decision when faced with a choice, of course you research into both, most people speak to their vet, their friends or look on the internet. You make a choice, see if it works, then change and research again if it doesn't work. Some horse owners try physio first, then change to chiro or vice versa, depending on what works best. That's not exactly rocket science. I was putting the context of your question into my field, and on the basis of that found your question rather obtuse.
My problem with your original question "what do people think shoes are doing to make a horse sound that wouldn't be sound barefoot?[/QUOTE]".... is that Jo public has a fairly good idea how feet work on a superficial level (no offence meant to anyone).
But do they know enough about the true mechanics, neurology, proprioceptive feedback, vascular system, systemic issues such as cushings on toxicity levels etc to be able to answer your question? I would say no. How about ligament structure, stay apparatus, breakover, medio-lateral balance, the importance of the frog, concussion/forces? And that's just from the top of my head with regards to how feet work and how we treat them subsequently.
So if people don't have a true understanding of anatomy, neurology etc how the hell can they be in a position to comfortably answer your question about what it means to the above when you have a shoe on a horse's foot, or when you let it go barefoot?
Hence I don't see what you're trying to achieve by asking a question that you would expect to see on a finals exam paper on this forum? What's the point?
Can't fault you on your passion, but have to say that you are in danger of coming across like you're trying too hard. And I sit on the fence re shoeing/barefoot btw.
Fii
Well-Known Member
The thread is about a dietary laminitic and what the owner should do now. Of course there are other causes. Do you think I'm an idiot
No actually i don't think you are an idiot, i have read with great interest your posts on barefoot, Although i can't see anywhere in the op's post where she has said it is dietary.
My question wasnt ment to upset you, it was a genuine question.
Zerotolerance
Well-Known Member
Sorry I haven't read all through the 22 pages on this thread, but, although for a completely different reason, I have used Sound Horse shoes, formerly called Sigafoos, on my 24 year old, in front, with great success for the last 4 years. Although they are hideously expensive at about £180 a pair, they have been brilliant and are nothing like any other glue on shoes. They never, ever come off, even when hunter trialling in mud etc. They may not be relevant in this case, but the website is worth a look:-
http://www.soundhorse.com/
http://www.soundhorse.com/
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
Or, alternatively, someone may read this thread who is at the end of the line with their horse, give barefoot a try and end up with a sound happy horse.
brucea
Well-Known Member
I did, and you would have had a hard job finding anyone more hostile to barefoot than me when I first encountered the concept.
Fii
Well-Known Member
Just so i can keep up, what is LGL, i am not so good with abbreiviations.
So do you think that a pony with concusion laminitis may have another underlying problem within the gut? Or can the stress of hard uneven ground on the feet be the cause without any other facters?
quirky
Well-Known Member
alsiola
Well-Known Member
Certainly not everyone believes this...
Acidosis is not well defined here - do you mean caecal acidosis? Or true acidosis (i.e. of the blood)? Or acidaemia? All are strictly defined scientific concepts.
If you think retained placenta causes laminitis via caecal acidosis then I would advise you to do some reading around the subject of endotoxaemia.
Izzwizz
Well-Known Member
Ive not read all the pages to this thread, really cant be bothered. Its got too in depth. I think that what people have lost sight of is that every horse is different, just like people, and what suits one will not do for another. The Barefoot Brigade will continue to make the Shod Team feel like they are not doing right by their horses when the bottom line is we all want whats best for our individual equines. My own mare had remedial shoeing last year, shes now sound after her tendon injury thanks to my excellent vet and Farrier. I completely trust them both and shes looking absolutely fabulous. The info is helpful regarding unshod horses, but it doesnt need ramming down peoples throats - thankyou.
Just my opinion of course....
Just my opinion of course....
Fii
Well-Known Member
Low Grade Laminitis
Thanyou
I sometimes feel a right idiot asking, but if you dont ask you onley get half the story.
brucea
Well-Known Member
I'm glad your mare has had a good result, but I don't think there is the need to adopt perjoratives such as "Barefoot Brigade" however catchy the alliteration.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Concussion related laminitis stands out there as an an anomaly for me in that all other lamintiis is hind gutrelated, but this is mechanical. Of course there may be stress related aspects to it that affect the hind gut.
On our cob's last ever shoeing, the farrier was in a real mood - something had wound him up - and he was really hammering the shoes on - smacking them as hard as he could wih the hammer. Shortly afterwards there was a thin red line of bruising round the hoof - a 2-3mm line clear as a bell. He was unsound for a few weeks after that - quite footy really. Now as it turns out this pony is IR and is pretty sensitive, but this is an example of a mechanical "laminitic" type response that isn;t hind gut related. I think the laminae were "shocked" by the impact.
On our cob's last ever shoeing, the farrier was in a real mood - something had wound him up - and he was really hammering the shoes on - smacking them as hard as he could wih the hammer. Shortly afterwards there was a thin red line of bruising round the hoof - a 2-3mm line clear as a bell. He was unsound for a few weeks after that - quite footy really. Now as it turns out this pony is IR and is pretty sensitive, but this is an example of a mechanical "laminitic" type response that isn;t hind gut related. I think the laminae were "shocked" by the impact.
Izzwizz
Well-Known Member
Just trying to make it a little more light hearted and a bit less intense...... lighten up!
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
I haven't done an intensive study, I can only comment on what I see and the output of numerous discussions with vets, farriers, lami researchers and nutritionists.
Most of the horses I deshoe have evidence of LGL or low grade laminitis - ie stretched white line, multiple event lines, thin soles and feet which are unable to maintain the healing angle to the ground.
If you work a foot which is sufficiently compromised, hard enough then there is a possiblity that the additional trauma to the weak foot could lead someone dealing with the consequences to give a diagnosis of 'concussion' laminitis. But the true causal factor is most likely to be the fact that the foot was already compromised by diet etc.
I have seen feet with severe concussion injuries, but the sample is very small, so not statistically sound, (although big enough probably to be published by the standards of some studies I have seen), but in none of these cases did the horse end up with laminitis - but they didn't have stretched white lines to start with.
Unfortuately a much higher proportion of horses are having issues with their diet etc than many of us realise because we are not taught the warning signs. It took me years literally to realise that my vets diagnosis of 'recurrent sprains' was wrong and in fact my mare had LGL. Massive lesson which I've never forgotten.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Izzwizz can you please advise us how we can post what we know without people feeling as if we are ramming it down their throats?
As long as people keep posting things like "laminitics need heart bars" and "horses need shoes if they do a lot of road work" we will keep saying that this is not true. I just don't know how we can stop making people who just don't want to hear it from feeling that we are ramming it down their throats? Serious question. Which bits of what has been written on this thread, for example, should not have been written?
I personally have no objection to being part of a Brigade. It's not a term of abuse as far as I can see. Maybe someone should write the poem "The Charge of the Barefoot Brigade"? Will we all die in the battle to convince more vets and farriers to add a barefoot rehab to their armoury of solutions for foot related lameness? I doubt it!
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Izzwizz can you please advise us how we can post what we know without people feeling as if we are ramming it down their throats?
As long as people keep posting things like "laminitics need heart bars" and "horses need shoes if they do a lot of road work" we will keep saying that this is not true. I just don't know how we can stop making people who just don't want to hear it from feeling that we are ramming it down their throats? Serious question. Which bits of what has been written on this thread, for example, should not have been written?
I personally have no objection to being part of a Brigade. It's not a term of abuse as far as I can see. Maybe someone should write the poem "The Charge of the Barefoot Brigade"? Will we all die in the battle to convince more vets and farriers to add a barefoot rehab to their armoury of solutions for foot related lameness? I doubt it!
Probably stop making sweeping statements like all horses being fine mananging any amount of road work unshod and your attitude to vets and farriers in previous posts is very off putting. Ramming opinions down peoples throats detracts from the very valid points made by some of those with experience of managing unshod horses, which is the tragedy.
I absolutely commit myself to keeping my horses without shoes but for some it is not in their interests and they are shod and I resent the inference that I am taking the easy option. Caring for the shod hoof is as important as caring for an unshod one.
Being reported to TFC won't stop me attempting to have a balanced debate in the interests of those who read these posts at a time when they are vunerable enough to try anything that sounds 'knowledgeable'. Asking for scientific evidence instead of anecdotal accounts is deemed as unreasonable.
At the end of the day each horse is an individual, what works for some doesn't work for all.
lazybee
Well-Known Member
"The Charge of the Barefoot Brigade"? Will we all die in the battle to convince more vets and farriers to add a barefoot rehab to their armoury of solutions for foot related lameness? I doubt it!
Just like the original 'charge of the Light brigade' you wouldn't complete your mission; on the grounds that you faced the overwhelming proven track record of your opponent, also most of your brigade wouldn't make it to the field due to having sore feet.
Come on lighten up.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
lazybee you tell me to lighten up after making a joke about writing a poem?
None of our brigade have sore feet, that's the whole point. We know how to get horses to do everything they would with shoes on without sore feet. And keeping them standing in stalls in wet straw, fed corn, waiting for a battle to start and then expecting them to do the charge of the Light Brigade is not how it works, which is why horses who went into battle had shoes on in the first place.
None of our brigade have sore feet, that's the whole point. We know how to get horses to do everything they would with shoes on without sore feet. And keeping them standing in stalls in wet straw, fed corn, waiting for a battle to start and then expecting them to do the charge of the Light Brigade is not how it works, which is why horses who went into battle had shoes on in the first place.
quirky
Well-Known Member
Generalising here and I appreciate you can't speak for every horse out there worked without shoes
but
are shoeless horses worked at all times on all surfaces with nothing on their feet ie. boots/socks?
I don't see how a horse worked in boots/socks can be referred to as barefoot, inasmuch as if I go out wearing something on my feet I am not barefoot, so how can a horse out with something on their feet be referred to as barefoot
?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I take it this is a reply to me personally?
"stop making sweeping statements like all horses being fine mananging any amount of road work unshod"
I have made no such sweeping assertions.
"your attitude to vets and farriers in previous posts is very off putting"
My personal experiences are true and recent and I have every right to relate them. I'm sorry if they make people uncomfortable by the implication that their own vets and farriers might not be as trustworthy as they think, but I have had messages from two people in the last six months whose vets and farriers told them that their horses would never be ridden again thanking me for suggesting a barefoot rehab. While horses are still being put to sleep without a barefoot rehab being tried I will continue to balance upsetting some people in order to prevent others from the heartache of losing a horse unnecessarily.
" I resent the inference that I am taking the easy option"
With a difficult horse, and there are plenty, it IS more difficult to manage them so that they can go barefoot than it is to shoe. This is simply a fact. It implies no criticism of the person who chooses to shoe instead. Take, for example, a horse who needs to be kept off grass during daylight. I have one. He has to be kept in during the day and I have then to provide a bed, food, and muck him out. If he was shod I would avoid the expense and the work. Another example. my own hunter being one. Some horses have to work very consistently in order to cope with their workload. So if my hunter does not go out on the roads several times a week, he becomes unable to cope with going out on the roads. It is more difficult to manage him barefoot than it would be shod.
"Asking for scientific evidence instead of anecdotal accounts is deemed as unreasonable. "
Who has said this is unreasonable? We ALL want it. No-one has said that wanting scientific evidence is unreasonable. What IS unreasonable is expecting a loosely-connected group of people who post on here because they can share valuable information about barefoot to PAY for it. There is no money to pay for it amongst barefooters, so all we are able to do is tell you our anecdotal experiences. What IS unreasonable is writing off a huge body of anecdotal evidence as having no validity whatsoever just because it has not been scientifically tested. Particularly when shoes have not been scientifically tested either.
I'm still stumped as to what I am supposed to write differently in order not to "ram things down people's throats". It seems to me that what people are really saying is "I don't like what you are writing and therefore you should not write it". I don't like a lot of what people write but we live in a democracy believing in freedom of speech and I will defend your right to write things I don't like until I die. But I reserve the right to answer you. If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore.
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Generalising here and I appreciate you can't speak for every horse out there worked without shoes
but
are shoeless horses worked at all times on all surfaces with nothing on their feet ie. boots/socks?
I don't see how a horse worked in boots/socks can be referred to as barefoot, inasmuch as if I go out wearing something on my feet I am not barefoot, so how can a horse out with something on their feet be referred to as barefoot
I don't personally use boots except, rarely, in the first few weeks. Some owners are unable to give the horses what they need to be 100% sound on all surfaces without boots and see boots as better than shoes, because they can be removed when the horse is not being ridden.
I think it is possible to worry too much about what "barefoot" means, there is no dictionary definition.
Last edited:
quirky
Well-Known Member
Hmm, then how come barefoot is held up as some type of Utopia if there is no such term defined
?