Advice please: kicked by new horse

flat3

flat3

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I bought a new horse a few weeks ago. He is effectively my first horse but he was known to my instructor and I bought him with her full approval.

I have no horsy relations or background; just got the bug when I was about 11 and have dogged away at it ever since. As a result, I am a competent basic rider, but have relatively little experience of handling the everyday quirks and hiccups although I try to project calm and confidence even when I'm not feeling it! I am aware of my inexperience and he is on full livery at a lovely yard.

However, since I've effectively been going it alone, I don't have informal sounding boards so I'm hoping you guys can advise me with a situation. Whilst my instructor and YO are lovely, I am aware I am one amongst many for them and could become very annoying very quickly!

He has settled in well and we've done a few schooling sessions and a lesson with my instructor. So far he has been a star - except for one incident yesterday.

He loves food (cob!) and my yard feeds hay from the floor in the stables (which are clean and dry). If I leave him loose in his stable he positions himself flush to the wall and stuffs his face the entire time, even when trying to pick feet, change rug, tack up etc. So I tie him up to the ring in his stable when I'm doing stuff with him and then he is easy to move around - responds to pressure and 'over'.

I brought him in yesterday to ride and his hay was already piled in the corner ready for when they're all brought in for the night. I straightaway safely tied him up and popped around the corner to get his kit and saddle, during which he used his front legs to pull the hay from the corner into his bed so he could try and eat it. He had hay all around his back legs and when I went to remove the hay he kicked out at me. I was stood in the same place as I would stand when picking his feet and he caught me on the thigh.

I guess he was annoyed that there was delicious hay in the corner that he couldn't have. There is plenty of grass in the field - he isn't starved! - I think he is just a foodie. My leg is a bit swollen and I'll have a decent bruise. Not something I want to happen again! I growled at him and slapped him on the top of the leg in question. He looked remorseful and stood quietly as I picked his feet out, brushed him and tacked him up. We did 20 mins in the school and then walked up the drive (first time out of the yard).

As you can imagine I'm trying to work out what it means and how to move forwards. I don't know if he meant to actually kick me, or whether I took him by surprise or something. From what I've heard and seen so far, he is a nice natured, chilled chap although the seller did say he occasionally needs to be reminded of his manners and she thinks he was subject to some rough handling when he was young.

So I guess my questions are:
Is it unreasonable for me to tie him up and expect him to be able to ignore the hay in the corner?
Should I have reacted differently?

Sorry for the essay! I will mention it to YO as I think its something she should know, but any insight is appreciated
 
I wouldn't worry too much. Yes I expect he was annoyed that he was trying to get hay he could see and you stopped it; also he is new and doing some boundary testing.

Personally I think it's a bit mean to tie a horse almost in reach of food - it would be like putting a chocolate on a shelf just over your head! I would grab a wheelbarrow, take the hay out of the stable, and then tie him in there.

I would just carry on being kind and firm, especially in the early days, and growl at him if he looks like lifting a leg to you again. And of course be careful now that you know he's capable of it.
 
It's hard to say without seeing him and you together. I've just got two competition horses and their behaviour changing homes has been almost disturbing. I wouldn't like to have got either of them if I was inexperienced myself. They are both on boot camp and won't be allowed away with any nonsense and I expect they will settle down quite soon. One of them is 18 and came from a friend so I know he isn't really a moron. The other one I'm hoping isn't really a moron lol

I expect mine to stand quietly with or without hay and I wouldn't be pleased if one of them kicked me but you aren't sure exactly why he did this.

I think I would carry on as you are but be ready for him to do it again and take the right action.

There isn't a lot of value in grass at this time of year so I would prefer him to have some hay in his stomach before I rode personally. I have mine on adlib hay all the time (but would expect to be able to do what you did without being kicked).
 
Is there anywhere you can tie him that is away from the hay? Or could you ask the yard not to put the hay in when you are going to bring him in to ride? I would ask the yard to make up a haynet for you which contains the right amount, and have them leave it somewhere (in the hay barn maybe) for you to put into his stable (you can empty the net on the floor) after you've finished all of your jobs with him. RE whether it is unreasonable to expect him to stand when he can reach the hay.... well, that's a tricky one IMHO. My horse would go for the hay initially and if I told him no, he would wait quietly until I allowed it. But, he knows me and has done for a number of years, and he's one of the nicest, most well mannered horse I've ever met AND he knows he boundaries (which I think is the most important thing). I have rarely had to tell him off but I still reinforce boundaries every day. When he gets his tea after work, he has to walk a few steps back as I take it into the stable. He knows that and he knows he won't get it without moving out of my way.

I would imagine that he probably really doesn't see why he shouldn't barge you out of the way to get to the hay, and you'll need to start being firmer with him. You need to set yourself up for success so if that means ensuring he has no hay to distract him for now, so be it.

In your situation I'd be inclined to book some handling/ stable management / groundwork lessons so you learn how to handle him on the ground. Maybe you could do that with your instructor? If you are worried about annoying the YO, you could always ask them if you could pay them for say 30 mins of their time X times a week to have a stable management lesson with them. They can teach you how they handle him, what to do in certain situations etc. Or you could find a groundwork specialist to come out to you - the Kelly Marks Recommended Associates are good. But initially I would ask for some lessons from the people who are handling him every day so things are consistent.
 
I expect he came in cold, wet and hungry - it was a pretty miserable day yesterday. Yes you are expecting too much to tie him in front of his food and to expect him not to want to eat it! Either tie him somewhere else or move the hay to outside the stable door until you are finished.
It is all a learning curve - glad it is only a bruise (can recommend Arnica to help heal it more quickly). Hope you have lots of fun and I hope your YO and staff would be more than ready to answer your questions. We all started out knowing nothing!
 
Abacus said:
I wouldn't worry too much. Yes I expect he was annoyed that he was trying to get hay he could see and you stopped it; also he is new and doing some boundary testing.

Personally I think it's a bit mean to tie a horse almost in reach of food - it would be like putting a chocolate on a shelf just over your head! I would grab a wheelbarrow, take the hay out of the stable, and then tie him in there.

I would just carry on being kind and firm, especially in the early days, and growl at him if he looks like lifting a leg to you again. And of course be careful now that you know he's capable of it.
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Very much this.

I think you did the right thing telling him off the way you did. Firm but fair, perhaps next time tie him on the yard or out of sight of his hay ... its a lesson learnt, dont think into it too much :) I have many years experience with horses but since moving my boy home and being on my own I feel like a clueless numpty half the time!
 
FfionWinnie said:
I expect mine to stand quietly with or without hay and I wouldn't be pleased if one of them kicked me but you aren't sure exactly why he did this.

I think I would carry on as you are but be ready for him to do it again and take the right action.

There isn't a lot of value in grass at this time of year so I would prefer him to have some hay in his stomach before I rode personally. I have mine on adlib hay all the time (but would expect to be able to do what you did without being kicked).
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^^ all of this. I would add, if you need to tell him off, do it immediately or not at all.
I was knocked to the ground by one of mine once, and winded - by the time I got myself together it was MUCH too late to tell her off... some people would have been tempted to anyway out of temper but she would have learnt nothing from it.
 
Were you trying to remove the hay from around his back legs? Best to move the horse out before you tidy it up as you found out. Yes, I do think it's too much to ask him to ignore hay.
 
flat3 said:
So I guess my questions are:
Is it unreasonable for me to tie him up and expect him to be able to ignore the hay in the corner?
Should I have reacted differently?
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I feel you put yourself in a difficult situation by expecting him to wait patiently tied in his stable where he could see but not reach his hay, especially at this time of year when they are coming in hungrier, though equally for him to kick you that is unacceptable behaviour and if he were mine he would be getting a short sharp reprimand - cobs can get bolshy very quickly so I would have reminded him of his manners in that instance. Perhaps next time don’t put you both in a difficult situation – get a haynet and pop a little hay in to tie to his ring whilst you go about grooming and tacking.
 
I would accept it as a one off and ensure you are not in that situation again, yes he should stand tied up and wait but as a greedy horse in new surroundings he has forgotten his manners as greed overtook what was expected of him.
As a YO I would want you to tell me what happened and between us make a plan to avoid it happening again, if I had a similar horse at livery I would probably leave a small net tied up so he could eat a little while waiting for you to get him ready, provided he will eat quietly and allow you to do what you need, the bulk of his hay can be left to be popped in after riding, either by me or yourself depending on the yard but the one thing I would stop doing is leaving a tempting pile just out of reach.
 
The grass sucks at this time of year, so they are hungrier when they come in. That said, it's hard to write anything when I haven't seen you and the horse, but I would say get an instructor to work with you and the horse on ground manners. When you're on the same page, I think it's safe and reasonable for the horse to be able to munch on hay in its stable while you groom and tack it up. But the horse needs to be able to move over when asked (they can do this while eating hay, honest!), and of course, not react aggressively or posessively when you move hay around, or even pick it up and walk out the door. The fact that it even occurred to him to kick when you went for that hay, and that he apparently won't step over when he has hay in front of him, means some groundwork instruction for both of you would not go amiss.

I leave my horse loose in her stable when I groom and tack up, but I've had her for over 16 years and she's very responsive to cues, gentle and very cognizant where the human is in the box. You can sit on the floor of the stable reading a kindle and be quite safe. With one who was less trustworthy, I would tie it where it could reach the hay. If it had food aggression issues, I would remove the hay from sight, or better yet, not tack up in the stall, rather than have it just out of reach, which creates conflict. That's the short term solution, but in the long term I would improve the horse's ground manners and respect for me to the point where the horse, the hay, and myself could co-exist in the same 12x12 box peacefully.
 
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I think you were a bit unreasonable to tie him next to his 'dinner', and expect him to ignore it, yes. It would be like someone putting a roast dinner in front of you on the table when you're hungry, but you not being allowed to eat it.

I don't like tying horses up with a hay net - IMO you create an issue by doing this whereby you end up with a horse who won't stand quietly unless distracted by food. Plus it's annoying when you're trying to brush their face/plait/get a bridle on and they're constantly jerking their head around trying to pull it all out!

Next time, tie him somewhere where there's food out of sight.
 
I always have ulcers at the back of my mind, and allow my horses pretty much limitless access to grass or hay.
There are IME a number of times of year when my horses come in off their field, and are actively hungry for hay.
Sometimes if the grass is growing fast, it lacks fibre, and sometimes as in November – March there isn’t much in the grass.

Personally if bringing in off grass to ride, I would allow access to hay for 15-30 minutes, to they have some fibre in their stomachs and aren’t grumpy for being ridden.
An alternative is bucket of chaff.

So assuming tying up outside stable not appropriate, I’d have probably removed hay from floor before bringing horse in, and put a small amount in a haynet for him to nibble whilst grooming and tacking up.

I have my hay in haybars in the stable, and I can if I chose tie up over the haybar, and tack up from there. (Though I know my horses v well, and am more likely to groom and tack up with them loose).
 
SpringArising said:
I think you were a bit unreasonable to tie him next to his 'dinner', and expect him to ignore it, yes. It would be like someone putting a roast dinner in front of you on the table when you're hungry, but you not being allowed to eat it.

I don't like tying horses up with a hay net - IMO you create an issue by doing this whereby you end up with a horse who won't stand quietly unless distracted by food. Plus it's annoying when you're trying to brush their face/plait/get a bridle on and they're constantly jerking their head around trying to pull it all out!

Next time, tie him somewhere where there's food out of sight.
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Yeah, I've got mine trained to walk away from her hay and stand quietly at the stable door when I want to bridle her up. If I could not teach it to stop eating when I to did that stuff, I would tack it up away from hay. It's really about where its attention is. Ideally, the horse can munch away but still be 'with you' mentally.
 
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Thanks everyone, all comments noted and I'll have a discussion with my YO about how to get a solution that works for all.

I'm aware that I'm new to a yard that has its own routines and ways of doing things in place, and I don't want turn up and start being demanding or rocking the boat. I see threads on here about that!

But I'm also aware I need to be safe and be fair to him, so thank you!
 
flat3 said:
Thanks everyone, all comments noted and I'll have a discussion with my YO about how to get a solution that works for all.

I'm aware that I'm new to a yard that has its own routines and ways of doing things in place, and I don't want turn up and start being demanding or rocking the boat. I see threads on here about that!

But I'm also aware I need to be safe and be fair to him, so thank you!
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If your YO has any common sense and wants to keep her livery owners happy she will find a solution, there should be no need to make demands or fall out over an issue like this where you are being put at risk, you may find she is as shocked as you and helps you with him, I certainly would be supporting any new owner and trying to help get those manners established, it is in my interests as well that any full livery is easy to deal with.
 
I think over time you will develop your own little routine that suits you and your horse. Mine come in, have a small amount of chaff, then its head collars on and I the tie them outside their stables while i sort them out. I do not feed haynets because I expect them to stand tied without and they quickly become an unnecessary habit. I think its safer to groom and tack up when the horses are stood tied. Although my horses would be fine loose I just prefer they stand tied. Over the years its become a habit.
 
There is NO circumstance when it is OK for a horse to act aggresively towards it's owner. None. I would expect any horse to stand tied until it was released, no matter what distractions were at play.
 
I always give my horses a small haynet when grooming and tacking up. They think they have had a feed. I have on filly would still kick if allowed to get away with it. Not acceptable.
 
Merlod said:
I feel you put yourself in a difficult situation by expecting him to wait patiently tied in his stable where he could see but not reach his hay, especially at this time of year when they are coming in hungrier, though equally for him to kick you that is unacceptable behaviour and if he were mine he would be getting a short sharp reprimand - cobs can get bolshy very quickly so I would have reminded him of his manners in that instance. Perhaps next time don’t put you both in a difficult situation – get a haynet and pop a little hay in to tie to his ring whilst you go about grooming and tacking.
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^^^ All of this.

My old gentleman would get upset in that situation too. And I would see his point. I'd just pop a little in a net to munch on while you're working around him.
 
Ours always come in to hay, in hay bars. They are then taught to have everything done without being tied up. When we get to brushing heads, putting on bridles etc, they are taught to come out of the hay and we crack on :) I don't like horses being ridden on empty tummys, so we tend to bring in and leave for ten minutes, then get them ready, this tends to make for more relaxed horses, who are therefore easier to deal with :) The younger Appy was used to being tied up, when we got her and was a bit surprised that she could walk away if she didn't like something, I put a halter on her and put her back where I wanted her and carried on with the job, she quickly learned that the best thing to do was stand and have done whatever it was she objected to, she now stands, moves over etc on request. It takes time and patience, but pays off in spades :)
 
Sorry if its been said, but if you were pulling hay out from around his back legs, could it possibly be that it was tickling him? Like when they kick out at flies?
 
SaddleUpSin said:
Sorry if its been said, but if you were pulling hay out from around his back legs, could it possibly be that it was tickling him? Like when they kick out at flies?
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agree with this and I always give my horses a Hay net when they come in to be ridden especially this time of year, perhaps just buy one so you can put a bit of the loose hay into it for when he comes in.
 
At this time of year I would always have my horses come in and have some hay before I work them .
The grass is less plentiful and they can come in hungry and it's not good for their tempers or tummies .
I would have a net for time like this so you can tie him up to eat while you groom him .
Unless your going to gallop him for three miles you don't need to worry about feeding him forage before you ride .
 
I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but my local World Horse Welfare inspector is a welcome regular visitor here to catch up on the gossip and grab a quick coffee.

He is an interesting man and I am an incurable mind picker! He is ex-mounted police and told me if he or one of his fellow officers ever got kicked or bitten, they'd be on a charge for not reading the horse's body language. Horses, and indeed most animals, don't kick or bite without giving a warning first. If the OP wants to play with horses, it would be a good idea to learn their language -- and not least what is likely to annoy them!
 
Dry Rot said:
I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but my local World Horse Welfare inspector is a welcome regular visitor here to catch up on the gossip and grab a quick coffee.

He is an interesting man and I am an incurable mind picker! He is ex-mounted police and told me if he or one of his fellow officers ever got kicked or bitten, they'd be on a charge for not reading the horse's body language. Horses, and indeed most animals, don't kick or bite without giving a warning first. If the OP wants to play with horses, it would be a good idea to learn their language -- and not least what is likely to annoy them!
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Don't you think that's exactly what's happening ?
OP is relatively new to horse keeping and that's how you learn being making errors and learning from them .
Now OP knows if a horse is hungry and it can see food it will try to get the food if you then try to remove the food it may be cross so you need a plan to stop that happening or a plan to make yourself safe .
Horses may kick the more you live with them the more you learn how to handle them But you have to learn through experiance .
OP instinctively corrected the horse ( good reaction ) and then went away and thought about what happened and asked people what they thought( good reaction )
I think she's doing just fine .
 
Sounds like you were firm and fair, keep going there'll be hiccups as you get used to each other but it'll work out :).

As for the hay only a suggestion but could you get a small net to hang up with a 'snack' in it? Found big guy is much more agreeable with his snack, he stands and munches while I do grooming, rugs, muck out, tack up - heck I once put a Santa hat on him and took his picture and he barely noticed :).

Good luck with your new furry pal and keep up with the firm and fair, when big guy first came he'd try and take a chunk out of people, he was an unhappy chappy, a few months of firm, fair loves and cuddles and he became a totally different boy, wouldn't dream of nipping, best buddy of the little person, just a star, he needed TLC and some leadership :).
 
Food is vital to the horse and most know it. Many will show aggression to any perceived interference during eating time. I accept that. Allow the horse to eat at appropriate time and at those times do not interfere, do not handle the animal, stay well clear. Allow plenty time for eating.

Do all your handling in circumstances without food to hand.

The only training that may be required in connection with food is that the horse must be aware to permit you to deliver the food supply without hustling you; horse must stand clear for the delivery.
 
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