Advice please re loan and vet bill

If the cream cannot be transferred and you and they worked on the basis that it could be I do think that you should at least contribute for the cream.
 
I think that is the risk you take when taking a horse on loan. I paid big vets bills for our old loan pony and, if my insurance doesn't pay up, Ivwill be paying a fairly eyewatering bill for current loan pony. But to me it is clear cut - loaner is responsible.
 
The issue of the cream is a grey area, as the contract states the loanees to pay for all treatment relating to the sarcoids, but yes it was assumed that the cream already paid for by me last year would be transferrable. They were given my vets number to discuss at the time-maybe if they had done so this situation might not have arisen as it could have been discussed prior to the pony leaving. My vet told me the same cream could be used this Autumn, so it is as much of a surprise to meas it is to them that it can't be used. They don't want to buy-they already had to buy back a pony they sold, so no point in offering them that.
 
OldNag said:
I think that is the risk you take when taking a horse on loan. I paid big vets bills for our old loan pony and, if my insurance doesn't pay up, Ivwill be paying a fairly eyewatering bill for current loan pony. But to me it is clear cut - loaner is responsible.
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The thing is that you can insure to cover for that risk.
you cannot insure for a pre existing condition.
 
I cannot believe that anyone would pass on a pony which they know needs treatment imminently for a fairly serious and worsening condition. Why on earth wasn't the treatment completed before the pony was moved?
Of course you should pay for the treatment, I may have got the wrong impression but it sounds to me as if you just loaned him to them to get your vet bills paid for.
 
ester said:
The thing is that you can insure to cover for that risk.
you cannot insure for a pre existing condition.
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Indeed. Old loan pony was too old to insure for vets' fees in any case.
Current one is insured and hr condition was not pre-existing but I am not counting my chickens...
Even if they pay out then after a year I will have to pay out for her meds. But I won't expect owner to pay unless we give her back. She is a super pony and we are lucky to have her.
 
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horsemadmum1 said:
Thank you OldNag-they are the ones with a free pony for as long as they want and they knew he had this issue.
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WOW.

they have a free pony? To be honest I think you'd find it difficult to sell a pony with recurring sarcoids on its face for any money no matter how good it was.

Meanwhile, you don't have to pay for the keep of a pony you don't want. And you can take it back whenever you do want.

You promised them free cream. Give them free cream.
 
I'm amazed they agreed to pay for pre existing. I've just taken on a loan pony but its strictly in the agreement that anything pre existing or excluded from insurance is not my responsibility.
 
horsemadmum1 said:
That is not relevant though, as they have agreed to, as part of the loan agreement.
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Perhaps without realising the cost, which is not inexpensive. Bottom line is this is your pony and if you wish the sarcoids treated I suspect your going to have to pay for the treatment yourself - or risk the loan contract being ended.

And, no, they don't have a free pony.
 
It depends on how keen you are for them to keep her, and whether you can find another home for the winter. They don't have the purchase price to pay but will have a lot of other ongoing expenses. And if the cream works you will benefit by having a saleable pony.
 
If they were under the impression that the treatment (i.e the Liverpool cream) would be provided free of charge, then as a minimum you should pay half but I think you should pay for the LC in full, as it sounds like it falls outside of the T&Cs of the contract.

At the end of the day, as the owner you will always have the upper hand and potentially take that pony back (and potentially sell on once sarcoid free) once they've paid treatment for a horse they'll never own.
 
They have a free pony in that they have no upfront costs, the were fully aware of the situation and did not need to proceed, if the pony was still in my care he would be treated-the previous treatment has been successful on two sites but one has gone crusty and there is another either missed, or which grew over winter. I have no intentions of taking the pony back, I have no job for him, and i could have sold him if I was unscrupulous, as the two sarcoid sites are hard to find. Had they sought to buy a pony of his calibre they would be paying a substantial amount. I don't know if he will ever be "sarcoid free." My worry will be what will happen when the loan is up, which will be when he is outgrown most likely, but I wouldn't sell him while he has active sarcoids, and any purchaser would have access to his full history. I think it is a bit unfortunate that the cream has become out of date, and caused this issue. Amymay the loaneees are experienced horse owners and were made fully aware of the need for several vet visits, during the course of the treatment. I wouldn't have let him go to people I didn't think would be responsible for him. It looks like I will need to pay for the cream, they have stated they will pay for its application.
 
I think it's unfair of you to expect them to pay for the cream when it was agreed before the loan that they wouldn't be paying for it? Plus it's a pre-existing condition.. If I were you I'd suck it up and pay for the cream.. That is if you want the pony to continue to stay with them and be worked.

Edited to add that I have had my equine friend treated for sarcoids recently and the cream was actually the least costly part of the bill!
 
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Pearlsasinger the treatment was not carried out during the warmer months due to the flies, on vets advice the treatment is carried out in winter. It also allows the pony some time off when he is not required for their activities. Sarcoids can be an ongoing thing, or they can clear up-I have seen both.
 
Personally I'd volunteer to pay for the cream on this occasion(as they thought prev cream could be transferred, yes I know it isn't your fault it's gone OOD) if they pay for the vet visits etc but make it clear this is a one off and that if future cream is needed then they must pay for it. This should hopefully maintain good relations, allow the pony to remain with them and not leave you too far out of pocket (if they turned around and told you to take him back if you fell out over this then you'd be paying for cream AND vet visits AND would have to search for a new loan home for the pony and pay costs in the meantime!)
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Pearlsasinger the treatment was not carried out during the warmer months due to the flies, on vets advice the treatment is carried out in winter. It also allows the pony some time off when he is not required for their activities. Sarcoids can be an ongoing thing, or they can clear up-I have seen both.
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I fully appreciate that, I have just had a sarcoid removed from my young cob's face.
What I do not understand is why you loaned out a pony which required expensive treatment for a pre-exisitng condition which was active at the time, unless you were hoping to find someone to pay for the treatment. IMO the pony is yours, the responsibility for his ongoing treatment is yours. The pony could have stayed on your property and been treated at your expense, to remove the current sarcoids, without being ridden. There is no necessity for a sarcoid pony to be ridden, it's not the same as an arthritic pony which requires exercise, or one being rehabbed from e.g. tendon injury.
If you had loaned the pony without telling them about the sarcoid you could have found it was returned very quickly as soon as the sarcoid became obvious and of course if you had tried to sell it avetting would have found it. The responsibility for the pony, unpalatable as that may be, is yours and yours alone. You are extremely lucky that the loaners agreed to contribute to the costs of treatment. Or the pony is.
 
You had an agreement where you agreed to provide the cream if they paid the other associated costs of treatment

They seem happy to keep to their side of the bargain and it seems only fair you keep to yours

The fact that the old cream has gone out of date is not their problem
 
Seems to me you implied they wouldn't have to pay for the cream due to having left overs.
I'd be pooped off to have the goal posts moved, it's not as if it is cheap.

I think you should pay for the cream, them the treatment this time and next time they stand the whole cost.
 
How much is the cream.£300 thereabouts. What's that in n the grand scheme if things in horse ownership. Is just pay it and be thankful pony has good home
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Thank you for all replies. I wasn't expecting the cream to need paid for either, so I think I may offer to pay half.
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It is your pony and they took him on loan with the agreement you would be supplying the cream, it is not your fault or theirs that the cream is out of date but the agreement was the cream would be supplied by you so that is what I would expect to happen in your shoes or theirs. Surely it is in your best interest that the sarcoids are treated but for the loaners they can just return the pony once the sarcoids are an issue?
In their shoes it would mean I would end the loan as the whole idea of loaning (especially ponies that get outgrown) is that you don't get stuck with this sort of thing. If something happened in my care I would cover it but this is preexisting.
I hate goal posts being moved.
 
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You all seem to have decided I am not paying for the cream! I asked in my original post, if I should pay for the cream! Its rubbish to say he would be better off at home not being worked, he was bored and he is thriving with the attention in his loan home. They love him and they are not bothered about paying for the vet to apply the cream=to 5 callouts, and they live near the practice so they say vet visits not expensive! Why would they want to end the loan? They took him on with a full appreciation of his situation-other than the two very small sarcoids left he is a healthy pony and a type not easy to find! They also have first option to buy as part of the loan agreement! I asked for opinions and I have got a very mixed reaction. Having thought about it I can appreciate that they thought the cream would be supplied-so I will be paying for it on this occasion. Hopefully the two small sarcoids will react positively like the other two already successfully treated.
 
Goldenstar said:
What's the difference between true love and a sarcoid ?
Sarcoids are for ever
Professor Dixon at the Dick told me that .
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With all the vets I know, multiple sarcoids (much worse than one), with regrowth in the same area (really serious problem now), where the area is not only near tack, but near eyes (OMG territory now) would be such a strong caution that it would count as almost an automatic vet failure.

Unless this pony is still young and has a serious competition record, I'd be surprised of he was worth much at all, if you could find a buyer. Unless that buyer was naive and didn't have him vetted.
 
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ycbm said:
With all the vets I know, multiple sarcoids (much worse than one), with regrowth in the same area (really serious problem now), where the area is not only near tack, but near eyes (OMG territory now) would be such a strong caution that it would count as almost an automatic vet failure.

Unless this pony is still young and has a serious competition record, I'd be surprised of he was worth much at all, if you could find a buyer. Unless that buyer was naive and didn't have him vetted.
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someone I know aid 20k for a ten yr old gelding with multiple sarcoids-he had had some removed and some were active at the time of sale, he now has more and they are growing-vets advice was he would buy him as he was if he was looking for a small horse to do low level eventing
 
Shoot me down if I'm missing the point, but I didn't realise vet bills were considered to be the loanee's responsibility, other than annual vaccinations/ worming.

I thought the vets bills being the owner's responsibility were one of the few perks of loaning. I can't see why you'd want to pay vets bills for a horse you don't own and could be requested back at any time?

I've never loaned, only owned.
 
If you were clear with them when they took on the loan roughly what the costs might be for treating the sarcoids including the costs of purchasing the cream should they flare up would be and they agreed to pay the cost of the treatment then they were aware of what they were taking on and the risks associated with it then they should pay unless you really don't want the pony back. If he is such a superstar competition pony you will find another loan home for him.

If when you loaned you said the sacoids may need treating but you already have the cream so if they do flare up in a certain time period say the next 6 months or a year then they won't need to pay for the cream only the vet to come and out and apply it and you were wrong about how long the cream would last before going out of date then you should pay for the cream as you have unintentionally mislead the loaners.
 
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