Advice please

Waxwing

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Hi

On the advice of another forum member who has given me some very good advice I would be interested to hear the experience and view points of anyone else who may have been in similar to the one I find myself in. I purchased a horse within the last two weeks from an established dealer with a good reputation. I did a lot of checking on Facebook and Google etc; I had a five stage vetting completed prior to purchase and attended the vetting. The horse was passed as suitable for the activities I outlined; essentially a low level all rounder. He has presented very differently when ridden since getting home; fine on the ground and he has settled in well on the yard; my instructor has seen him ridden on three occasions and raised significant concerns about his presentation particularly in canter; we had the vet out yesterday and they identified that the there is a definite problem that could be linked to his back, neck or sacroiliacs; they also advised that it was going to be difficult to pinpoint and a number of tests and scans were likely to be required that could end up being inconclusive or finds something that not treatable. He is also lame behind. The vet has recommended a poor performance assessment; I contacted them earlier to ask what this would entail and was advised it would depend what turned up in the initial tests, but could run into lots of money . I sought advice from the BHS Legal Helpline who said I had a right to seek to return him under the Consumer Rights Act as it was less than thirty days since purchase . I spoke to the dealer earlier in the week and they weren't very receptive. I was advised to see if I have legal cover with my home insurance which I have; I made an initial call today and I am waiting to hear back. I feel like I did everything properly; checked the dealer's reputation; had the horse vetted and was there when the vetting took place but I have lost the majority of my savings and have a horse I can't ride and could only legitimately rehome as non-ridden companion. I took insurance out the day we purchased him but for the first two weeks only accidental injury is covered so any I am responsible for all vet fees. He was meant to be for my daughter to ride as well; she is currently experiencing some significant issues with her emotional well being and its really important that she has a horse to ride. The dealer's view is that he passed a five stage vetting and consequently any issues have occurred after purchase; the vet who saw him yesterday is very clear that the issues are not attributable to poorly fitting tack or anything else that is easily addressed. I spoke to an equine solicitor this afternoon who said it would be worth sending a legal letter to the dealer and seeing how they responded ( I am still waiting for feedback from my home insurance provider re legal cover - I am covered for issues related to buying and selling goods.) . If anyone has any advice they can share it will be gratefully received; I am feeling like a total idiot at present and got sent home from work sick yesterday as I was so stressed. If there isn't an option to return I am going to have some very difficult decisions to make over the next few weeks. I appreciate things can do happen with horses at any point but I didn't expect this within a week of purchasing him.
 

PeterNatt

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I would endorse what your solicitor stated in asking the dealer for a full refund. I would also suggest that you get a letter from a completely different vet from a different practice stating that they have examined the horse and the issues it has presented with are pre-existing conditions which would have been present prior to the purchase of the horse.
 

Waxwing

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Hi the original vetting was carried out by a vet local to the dealer (not their vet) and he was seen yesterday by a vet from the practice local to me. The vet who saw him yesterday verbally stated he felt it likely the issues were there prior to purchase but advised all he can comment on his repot is what he observed and not give an indication on when this became an issue.
 

Waxwing

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I had wondered if I should be thinking about making a complaint/ taking this up with the vet as well as consider action in relation to the dealer. I hate having to do this but if I don't do something I am left with some very large bills and a horse I cant ride.
 

Waxwing

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The horse is perfectly happy by the way; the vet has confirmed he isn't in any discomfort when not being ridden. He is enjoying being out in the field with is his new friends.
 

Melody Grey

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I’d be returning the horse sharpish OP- you’re well within your rights and it sounds like an undefined problem you could do without, particularly given that it’s been spotted and documented by a vet within your insurance exclusion period! ?

ETA: I’d take it up with the dealer in the first instance. The horse may well have been ‘fits for purpose’ at the vetting but could now be sore due to underlying problems that may not have been apparent at the vetting.
 

Wishfilly

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You have right of return within 30 days as the horse is not of satisfactory quality. I think if you get a legal letter written up, this will be a shot across the dealer's bows, as it were. I would also consider taking it up with the vet, but I think it may be very difficult to prove they missed something. Agree with running bloods if taken.

But you do need to move quickly, and it doesn't mean you will get your money back ASAP as you may end up having to take the dealer to court etc.

I would, personally, message the dealer again saying you wish to return the horse as the horse is not of satisfactory quality, and you are taking legal advice on this.

Unfortunately, I do think this could be a long and stressful road and if the dealer is genuine and the horse genuinely passed a vetting, I can see their PoV to some extent- but that doesn't affect your legal rights.

I'm sorry this has happened, though.
 

SusieT

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How long have you had him? As he passed a vetting you may be on shakey ground - i.e. could he have been 'damaged' in your care ?
Equally you probably do have rights so I would follow solicitors advice.
 

Waxwing

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HI thank you for all the responses, I have had him nine days and the issues were noted within a few days. The local vet is pretty clear this is a pre existing issue, not something he has done since I got him. Bloods were taken and I have requested they are run, he is very different ridden to how was when I tried him but very relaxed on the ground. I will.be sending a letter and we will.see where we go. I am.not sure I can return him unless the dealer agrees to take him back? While I want for the dealer's response I will obviously continue to care for him and seek veterinary attention if he is unwell.or in pain but I m not going to be arranging more extensive medical tests at this stage. If he can't go back I'll have to decide what to do next. The vet here has asked for him to be ridden on one more occasion, to see if the issues remain consistent. Apart from.that he wont be ridden. There could need to be some difficult choices made at some stage.
.
 

Wishfilly

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Legally the dealer does not have to agree, you have a right of return but practically and in terms of getting your money back the next step would be court action. I would put something in writing in a way you can prove they received within the 30 days because this can be useful if things do go to court. Hopefully a legal letter will be enough to get the dealer to play ball.
 

Waxwing

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My OH and I have done a lot of talking and agreed that if he can't be returned and isn't going to be rideable and not in pain we will.look into retirement livery options. There is nothing affordable close by but some options a little further away would be doable. This situation is not of his making and I want to do the best I can for him
 

Parrotperson

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Waxwing you’re a very very good person for doing this for your horse. Not everyone would

I too am a little worried that he passed a 5 star vetting. Even if they’d buted him you’d think the vet would spit this kind of issue.

So I’d also be speaking to your solicitor about taking action against that vet. Maybe after you get the results from the bloods but I’d do it either way. It doesn’t sound right to me at all.

Good luck. Hope it resolves itself soon and the dealer comes to his senses and takes the horse back for a full refund.
 

SEL

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Waxwing you’re a very very good person for doing this for your horse. Not everyone would

I too am a little worried that he passed a 5 star vetting. Even if they’d buted him you’d think the vet would spit this kind of issue.

i had a very interesting chat with a new vet a few years ago about my PSSM mare who also has hock, suspensory and SI issues - enough that I don't really ride her any more.

Vet saw her on a day when she'd been on a bute trial & said to me that if she didn't know the horse she'd have easily passed her in a vetting that day.

Bit silly of the dealer though knowing that bloods are drawn in a 5 stage.

any chance of tracking down prior owners OP?
 

paddy555

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I'm sorry you are in this situation after doing everything right.

It doesn't make sense.

he horse in question passed his 5 stage vetting this morning (very experienced equine vet local to the horse and not from the practice used by the dealer)

9 days later this

identified that the there is a definite problem that could be linked to his back, neck or sacroiliacs; they also advised that it was going to be difficult to pinpoint and a number of tests and scans were likely to be required that could end up being inconclusive or finds something that not treatable. He is also lame behind. The vet has recommended a poor performance assessment;

so leaving aside the point he has had an accident since vetting with the dealer or an accident with you something has happened that made him sound and OK on 26/4 and lame and unrideable 9 days later.
It may not have been the dealers vet but they could be known to each other, friends, or what proof is there he isn't the dealer's vet.

I suspect you are going to have to take legal action however in the meantime to get a bit more info I would work through the owners on the passport and talk to them, does he have a registered name you could google for any competition results, ask about the dealer on the dodgy dealer's site, how long has he been in earlier homes, lots of them and he has been passed from pillar to post with problems or simply one loving owner type situation. Presumably you have the genuine original passport and the correct horse ie the vet checked the chip. How long did the dealer have him. When you went to see him what did you and the dealer do with him? more to the point what didn't he demonstrate eg jumping which may have been painful to the horse, turning sharply anything the dealer cleverly avoided showing you.

I would also do a bute trial (along with testing the bloods taken) if he has bute does he go back to the horse that was vetted or does it make no difference at all.

if you think the experienced equine vet was genuine I would ask his opinion (not accuse him) and even ask him to look at the horse if close enough. If he is doubtful and could be in collusion with the dealer that is a different matter. Google that specific vet. Look for reviews, anything naughty perhaps?

It shouldn't take long to do this, although I realise you are very upset ATM. However the more info you can get together and you can piece together what has really happened then the more effective legal advice is going to be.

You're a very kind person to be looking for options for the horse if he can't go back.
 

Melody Grey

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My OH and I have done a lot of talking and agreed that if he can't be returned and isn't going to be rideable and not in pain we will.look into retirement livery options. There is nothing affordable close by but some options a little further away would be doable. This situation is not of his making and I want to do the best I can for him
This is an endearing approach OP, but please don’t feel compelled to retire this horse- it can be an expensive and exhausting experience. I think you can and should return this horse, it’s not your problem that the horse was broken before you got him and you shouldn’t feel compelled to shoulder what is someone else’s, I.e the dealers problem. Kick up a fuss and pursue it, some less reputable dealers bank on people like you to retire broken horses and negate them of responsibility, don’t let them get away with it!
 

Waxwing

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I managed to speak to the original owner earlier in the week, I rang the vets who had vaccinated him and they passed my number on and she contacted me. She had had him a long time , obviously loved him and if I currently had the horse she described I'd be very happy! ? She said she wasn't aware of any issues but he had been out on loan prior to her selling him so I suppose something could have occurred that she wasn't aware of. I have got to chase up on Monday to see if the legal services available through our home insurance. If not we will have to pay a solicitor to write a letter. Happy days!
 

PeterNatt

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Make sure that you instruct a specialist Equine Solicitor to write to the dealer as they will have had experience of handling sitations similar to the one your have. Get the blood tests done and see if anything shows up. Below is a list of specialist equine solicitors:

Actons
Tel: 0115 91002200 Caroline Bowler

Hannah Salter (Sale and Purchase disputes, Loans, Livery and Facility Hire Agreements)
Waddington Turner Wall Solicitors
Michael Bower Equine Law

Mark Carter
White Bowker Solicitors
Tel: 01962 844440
www.wandb.co.uk
mark.carter@wandb.co.uk

Andrew Dalton
Who is a solicitor and rides a motorbike having been a courier www.adventurebikerider.com

Helen Niebuhr
Darbys Solicitors
52 New Inn Hall Street
Oxford
OX1 2QD
Tel: 01865 811 7000
01865 811712
Fax: 01865 811 777
www.equine-law.net
E: equine@darbys.co.uk

Jaqcui Fulton Equine Law
Tel: 0121 308 5915
jf@equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk

Hannah Campbell (Specialise in compensation cases)
Tel: 01446 794196 (Specialises in traffic accidents involving horses)
www.horsesolicitor.co.uk
info@horse solicitor

Hanna Campbell
Horse Solicitors
(Took on case in 2013 on behalf of Claire Berry-Jones) involving making a claim Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB)

Deborah Hargreaves
Edmondson Hall Solicitors and Sports Lawyers
25 Exeter Road
Newmarket
Suffolk
CB8 8AR
Tel: 01638 560556
Tel: 01638 564483
E: solicitors@edmondsonhall.com
E: ah@edmondsonhall.com
www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html
Wrote an article on The Legal pitfalls of Buying and Selling Horses

Elizabeth Simpson Senior Solicitor at law firm Andrew M Jackson
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk
enquiries@andrewjackson.co.uk

David Forbes or Belinda Walkinshaw
Pickworths Solicitors
6 Victoria Street
St Albans
Hertfordshire
AL1 3JB
01727 844511

Mark de-villamar Roberts
Langleys Solicitors Equine Law Group
Tel: 01904 683051
E: mark.Roberts@langleys.com
www.equinelawyers.co.uk

Elizabeth Simpson
Senior Solicitor
Andrew Jackson
Yorkshire
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk

Richmond Solicitors
13-15 High Street
Keynsham
Bristol
BS31 1DP
Tel: 0117 986 9555
Fax: 0117 986 8680
enquiries@richmonssolicitorsco.uk

Jacqui Fulton
Giselle Robinson Solicitors

Inderjit Gill
Jacksons Specialist Equine Solicitor
(Represented Gaynor Goodall in an accident on a bridleway on Tameside County Court 01 February 2010).

Knights Solicitors
Tunbridge Wells
Tel: 01892 537311
www.knights-solicitors.co.uk
Work with GRC Commercial Bailiffs
Senior partner very good on equine matters

Horse Solicitor
Tel: 01446 794 196
info@horsesolicitor.co.uk
www.horsesolicitor.com

www.laytons.com

Mary Ann Reay Charles or Chris Shaw
Shaw and Co Solicitors
Equine Law Specialists
Tel: 0800 019 1248
info@shawandco.com
www.shawandco.com

Tozers www.tozers.co.uk
 

Waxwing

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Thank you everyone for your replies awaiting the blood test results which should be back today. I spoke to one equine lawyer who has advised its worth sending a letter but isn't sure we will have a case as he passed the vetting. Our home insurance legal cover advised the we have to write the initial letter before action; if this isn't successful they will look at picking the case up, but only if they feel there is a good chance of a successful outcome.
 

Waxwing

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Sorry posted to quickly; the horse is still presenting in the same way, the vet had asked for him to be ridden again to see if the picture was consistent; unfortunately it it hasn't , the instructor advised there has has been no improvement and he appears worried when ridden particularly in canter. I had the saddler out yesterday, the vet doesn't think the fit of the tack has caused the issues , but I had already booked it in. I discussed the situation with the saddler and suggested the issues could have been caused poorly fitting tack at the dealers giving him a sore back and suggested getting a physio to have a look. I contacted his old owner to ask again if he had had any issues with them, they were adamant he hadn't and he had had regular physio visits everything had been fine and they were equally adamant he was sound when they sold him last month. It's evident from what is on social media that he had been a much loved member of their family for years and they looked to be an experienced equine family. The reason for selling was valid and the information they provided matches up what the dealer told me. However he isn't right now and isn't the horse I tried and if we can't return him I am not sure what I am going to do. I know intellectually what I can do; ie turn him away and see how he does, agree a level of of investigations with the vet, look at retirement livery etc but emotionally the situation is doing me in. I'm not sleeping and feeling very guilty for having placed this additional financial burden on the family finances when I can't ride him. Sorry for the moan
 

Fred66

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Can I ask whether you bought from a dealer or whether it was from the original owner via a dealers yard ? This will impact any claim as the latter is effectively a private sale.
Also even if the former it is likely to be sticky as the horse passed a vetting on the day and there is no problem with bloods. It could turn into a difference in vets opinions as to whether it’s issue now was prior to purchase or not and if the problem is now obvious and wasn’t at the time then it is not looking favourable for them finding it was pre-existing as the horse was not doped to cover it.
Did you take out insurance?
 

nutjob

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Really sorry about this, its difficult to see how it has gone wrong here, you've definitely been unlucky. The above comment is relevant as you are in a different legal situation if the horse was bought while on sales livery rather than direct from a dealer.

You will get more of a background about the dealer if you post yourself on dodgy dealers, anonymously if necessary than by just searching other posts. Many people get threatened and trolled when they post their experiences and remove their posts, but will pm you if you ask a question yourself. There is also a large community of folks there who have been in the same position as yourself who can give advice.

If you cannot return the horse and the vet agrees to it, a good physio might be able to narrow down which area you are looking at to go for further investigations. My horse had a terrible fall and if I hadn't seen it myself, it would be difficult to know what happened without any external injuries. He has recovered now and whilst the rehab was extensive the treatment wasn't too expensive it was more the amount of time and work I had to put in. Also, you may be in a better legal position if you know what is wrong with the horse whether likely to be a long standing problem or just a very unlucky accident which you didn't witness. The horse may not be a complete write off.
 

Waxwing

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Thank you for your response; can one post anonymously on Facebook; the only feedback I found in relation to this dealer was very positive and I don't want to post anything identifying myself at present
 
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