Advice re: Vit E dosage

Dexter said:
I'm not keen on the way this forum prescribes vitamin e as some sort of miracle cure. Its is very useful in the case of deficiencies and in type 1 PSSM with the correct diet and management changes. I feed it year round to horses with no PSSM or PSSM type symptoms, as its a useful supplement. For the treatment of PSSM you need to test for type 1 first.

The OP is clutching at straws hoping the addition of the wrong type of vitamin e is going to fix everything, which is almost certainly not the case with this horse, absolutely not the case unless diet and management is addressed, and definitely not the case if the horse has type 2 PSSM. It would be easy to try vitamin e, have no huge improvement, then rule out PSSM when it may still be an issue. But before any of that, other pre exisiting issues need to be ruled out or its just taking misguided shots in the dark.
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I don't see it as a miracle cure. I see it firstly as the fact that I suspect many are short of vit E being included in their diet. In the old days horses lived on grass. Now grass is strictly limited because of lami etc.
Feeds are lacking in quality E. There is a push to forage based diets.

You said yourself this horse is unlikely to be PSSM1. So whilst a negative test may be useful that £35 would go some way towards paying for E.

You say you feed E all year round to non PSSM horses. This OP doesn't and it appears Lari's previous owner didn't either so surely straight away you have the potential for a problem. He could well be deficient PSSM or not. He may not be PSSM he could simply be vit E deficient.
I cannot see it is clutching at straws to rectify the vit E situation and try an increased dosage as a trial. Seems to me to be a perfectly simple thing to do to rule it out.

She bought the wrong type of oil. Many of us buy the wrong product through ignorance.
Surely she would be addressing diet and management if vit E was supplemented. You do.
 
paddy555 said:
I don't see it as a miracle cure. I see it firstly as the fact that I suspect many are short of vit E being included in their diet. In the old days horses lived on grass. Now grass is strictly limited because of lami etc.
Feeds are lacking in quality E. There is a push to forage based diets.

You said yourself this horse is unlikely to be PSSM1. So whilst a negative test may be useful that £35 would go some way towards paying for E.

You say you feed E all year round to non PSSM horses. This OP doesn't and it appears Lari's previous owner didn't either so surely straight away you have the potential for a problem. He could well be deficient PSSM or not. He may not be PSSM he could simply be vit E deficient.
I cannot see it is clutching at straws to rectify the vit E situation and try an increased dosage as a trial. Seems to me to be a perfectly simple thing to do to rule it out.

She bought the wrong type of oil. Many of us buy the wrong product through ignorance.
Surely she would be addressing diet and management if vit E was supplemented. You do.
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I agree that many horses are VitE deficient, especially in the winter months, and many would benefit from supplementation, but in this case we’re talking about a horse with multiple undefined issues, and as I said upthread, there’s little point spending money on VitE (the right one) in the hope it’s going to solve all Lari’s problems, without first properly addressing diet and management (which by the OP’s comments hasn’t been done) and ruling out things like ulcers and PSD.

In some ways VitE is like the new turmeric.
 
Dexter said:
I'm not keen on the way this forum prescribes vitamin e as some sort of miracle cure.
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The forum does not prescribe vit E willy nilly as a miracle cure. I am one of several who suggests that trialling elevated levels of vit E is worth it in some cases - it'll work or it won't.

It WAS a miracle cure for my PSSM1 -ve mare, along with keeping her warm, but no one says that it'll work for all or even most horses ?‍♀️. Except that it's not a cure in that she requires on going daily supplementation with vit E, but it has transformed her - vets will confirm.

It could be worth trying for the OP's horse, but scoping for ulcers/scanning for PSD, if not already done, would be top of my list for OP's horse.
 
Rowreach said:
I agree that many horses are VitE deficient, especially in the winter months, and many would benefit from supplementation, but in this case we’re talking about a horse with multiple undefined issues, and as I said upthread, there’s little point spending money on VitE (the right one) in the hope it’s going to solve all Lari’s problems, without first properly addressing diet and management (which by the OP’s comments hasn’t been done) and ruling out things like ulcers and PSD.

In some ways VitE is like the new turmeric.
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I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit. Adding Vit E is a reasonable suggestion for this horse. I don't think anyone (OP included) think that it's a miracle cure or that it'll fix all of the horses issues. It may help in some way, but we just don't know. Therefore, the OP will possibly give it a try.

I do feel as though the OP has a few things to address, and that includes the PSD, ulcers, and diet, but if she has the money, then why not give the vit e a go?

I don't think people think it's a cure all, or suggest it in every situation, but there are people on here that have seen positive results from adding vit e, and they're just relaying their experiences.
 
Given how much money Birker has thrown at her horse I think addressing potential dietary deficiencies is small ££. If there's no change them so be it. I don't instantly reach for the vet when I suspect a horse is ulcery - I have a look at what they're eating.

Oh and the change in two of mine when a local farmer told me the area was seriously deficient in selenium and I supplemented was eye opening
 
CanteringCarrot said:
I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit. Adding Vit E is a reasonable suggestion for this horse. I don't think anyone (OP included) think that it's a miracle cure or that it'll fix all of the horses issues. It may help in some way, but we just don't know. Therefore, the OP will possibly give it a try.

I do feel as though the OP has a few things to address, and that includes the PSD, ulcers, and diet, but if she has the money, then why not give the vit e a go?

I don't think people think it's a cure all, or suggest it in every situation, but there are people on here that have seen positive results from adding vit e, and they're just relaying their experiences.
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Where did I say don’t try VitE, it has certainly helped my horse, but the OP is feeding a high sugar diet which includes cabbage (detrimental to any horse but extremely harmful to one already experiencing gut issues) and posts on here all the time looking for advice and not addressing the basics while at the same time running up huge vet bills. The basics are not only simple to get right, they are long term money savers.

The problem with feeding any supplements is that most people don’t know why they are doing it or whether it’s necessary. Generally if a horse isn’t on grass then you can assume it will need some level of VitE supplementation but without soil and forage testing things like selenium levels and mineral deficiencies won’t be clear. You can’t (or shouldn’t) just keep throwing things at a horse just in case they work.

As a poster says above, your local farmer will know what’s in his soil.
 
Rowreach said:
Where did I say don’t try VitE, it has certainly helped my horse, but the OP is feeding a high sugar diet which includes cabbage (detrimental to any horse but extremely harmful to one already experiencing gut issues) and posts on here all the time looking for advice and not addressing the basics while at the same time running up huge vet bills. The basics are not only simple to get right, they are long term money savers.

The problem with feeding any supplements is that most people don’t know why they are doing it or whether it’s necessary. Generally if a horse isn’t on grass then you can assume it will need some level of VitE supplementation but without soil and forage testing things like selenium levels and mineral deficiencies won’t be clear. You can’t (or shouldn’t) just keep throwing things at a horse just in case they work.

As a poster says above, your local farmer will know what’s in his soil.
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Ok, I think we're just going to be talking past each other here. So never mind.
 
scats said:
OP- has he been scanned for PSD and, if so, how bad is it? I ask because I have a mare who’s issues all stem from very (very) mild, but chronic, PSD.
It has made me realise how little an issue a horse needs in this area to cause major problems.
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No he hasn't. I am already at over 1K with insurance excesses so I am not keen to pursue yet another thing, scoping is pretty straight forward and easy to rule out the presence or not of ulcers, if not there then I might pay for the scoping myself and think about pursuing the PSD.

He is working lovely for the rider five days a week, four in the school and doesn't look to be struggling with PSD, he doesn't look lame at all now although I'm aware how bilateral lameness can catch people out.
 
Rowreach said:
and posts on here all the time looking for advice and not addressing the basics while at the same time running up huge vet bills. The basics are not only simple to get right, they are long term money savers.
l.
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Hang on a minute. Not addressing the issues??? Crikey you only said about cabbage/carrot and apple yesterday. I'm not superwoman!!
I'm clutching at straws yes, but I have limited funds, have spent a fortune on a horse I've only had less than 10 months that cost me 12.5k to buy, did all due diligence at the time, including a 5 stage vetting and have done everything in my power to try out his issues, have taken on board what has been said on here and by others.

Give me a break please. I am doing my very best for this animal and working through a list as long as my arm of things that 'could' or 'might' cause the symptoms he is displaying. At the end of the day there might not be anything mightly wrong with the horse now and he's just being a PITA because he's had a nice long holiday and resents being asked to work. I know horses are capable of these things, not everything has pain as its cause.

NB He is being scoped next Friday.
 
Rowreach said:
I agree that many horses are VitE deficient, especially in the winter months, and many would benefit from supplementation, but in this case we’re talking about a horse with multiple undefined issues, and as I said upthread, there’s little point spending money on VitE (the right one) in the hope it’s going to solve all Lari’s problems, without first properly addressing diet and management (which by the OP’s comments hasn’t been done) and ruling out things like ulcers and PSD.

In some ways VitE is like the new turmeric.
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is vit e not a part of diet? really?? I've no idea what it's relevance to turmeric is. Vit E has always been required.

I was addressing this. (quote below)
It could be a good idea to blood test for vit E levels but, due to budget, I didn't suggest that.

(Valberg)

Vitamin E responsive myopathy A subset of horses with alpha-tocopherol deficiency may develop clinical signs solely related to muscle wasting (atrophy) and weakness without evidence of damage to motor nerves. A wide variety of horse breeds have been diagnosed with vitamin E responsive myopathy (VEM). Whether VEM is an entity unto itself or a predecessor to development of equine motor neuron disease is not yet known.
Clinical signs in horses with VEM may include:
  • Loss of muscle mass
  • Toe dragging
  • Poor performance
  • Weakness
  • Muscle twitching (fasciculations)
Diagnosis of this disease is based on the histopathologic finding of abnormal “moth-eaten” mitochondrial staining of fresh (not formalin-fixed) sacrocaudalis dorsalis muscle in the absence of neurogenic angular atrophy of muscle fibers. In many, but not all, serum alpha-tocopherol is low. To date, all affected cases have had below normal muscle alpha-tocopherol concentrations.
Treatment: Horses with VEM respond remarkably to alpha-tocopherol supplementation and can make a complete recovery.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
If he's working lovely, hasn't been scanned and not struggling, how did PSD come up?
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Long story but intially when I got the new vet involved in April this year he said he was lame off hind, felt it was his hind suspensories based on the case history, what he'd done previously, etc. They weren't scanned, he felt that he was a little down on them if you understand what I mean. Also he was displaying at the time bilateral lameness, but also had SI issues so wanted to see how he went on with this medicated along with hocks and coffin joints. Suggested doing the cut operation (sorry in a rush don't know proper name of it) but as I had already done months of rehab by this stage for other things and didn't feel like I wanted to pursue this at that time. He wasn't in work at this stage so we didn't know what would happen when ridden when all his medication had been given.
 
Thank you all for your comments but before this thread runs away anymore I'm going to just finish here.

Thank you for all your help, just know that I am doing everything I can and always have done right by my horses.

I appreciate everyone's comments. I will purchase the Vit E that someone on here has kindly messaged me today about, and I will wait for next Friday to see what shows up with scoping, I need to cross that bridge first before I start on anything else. My head is spinning with it all to be honest.
 
SEL said:
Oh and the change in two of mine when a local farmer told me the area was seriously deficient in selenium and I supplemented was eye opening
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Birker, I forget to mention this in our PMs. Find out about levels in your area and make sure you are supplementing if necessary. There will be lots of reading about it. Your original product on this thread has Se I believe. Just another thing to check and tick off the list. :D:D:D
 
If you already have an idea where the vet thinks suspensories may be damaged, it is not expensive to have them scanned. Probably cheaper than scoping. Personally, I would scan suspensories (ultrasound) before scoping as, if he is in pain with them, ulcers would return even if treated (which also is not cheap).
 
Red-1 said:
If you already have an idea where the vet thinks suspensories may be damaged, it is not expensive to have them scanned. Probably cheaper than scoping. Personally, I would scan suspensories (ultrasound) before scoping as, if he is in pain with them, ulcers would return even if treated (which also is not cheap).
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This, big time.
.
 
ycbm said:
This, big time.
.
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He was taken in the vets yesterday afternoon long before you replied and is being scoped this morning.

I had already decided having gone through the repeated trauma of box rest and rehab with Bailey and then six months rehab with Lari that I wasn't going to do anymore and I will stick with that decision so will not be having an op for suspensories and to be perfectly honest the whole thing doesn't sit easy with me in terms of what they do, I'm sorry if that offends anyone, it isn't meant to.

He rides very well for the rider over the past three weeks and people have commented on how well he looks and how nicely he is moving when ridden, although sadly this week she had reported that he feels a bit stiff and locked to the one side so I asked the vets last night and the vet will be lunging today to see what's happened. Its all a total nightmare and I'm not sleeping again.

The insurance company are being very cagey and have alluded to the fact that they are hoping to lump all this stuff together although I have a claim for hocks, si and coffin joints. If they do it will mean I will be ending up well over my £5K limit by the time this little lot is finished and I literally have no funds left having spent everything already on him so they will have to have instalments from me if this is what it comes to.

I am not ashamed to admit that if this doesn't work then I've done everything I can. Its such a huge mental toll and a huge finanical drain on my resources, I took a punt on the horse having stretched my finances to buy him and all the money I had put aside for lessons, clinics and new things for him have been spent on pro riders, sales livery, insurance excesses and six tubs of myoplast!

The vitamin E arrived yesterday, I'm nearly at the end of my Happy Hooves molassed that I bought in error and will buy the unmolassed and try the sugar free diet in case of PSSM as a last effort but I'm just about done now. I gave it my best shot.
 
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Good luck with the scope.

Scanning the suspensories would just give more info - if they are knackered there is no obligation to have the op, but at least you would know.

Frequently hock, SI and hind suspensory issues are linked. If you leave any one of them unaddressed, the issues will return.

If you contact the vets now they might still be able to scan him while he's sedated. My vets scope first thing, so around now.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Good luck with the scope.

Scanning the suspensories would just give more info - if they are knackered there is no obligation to have the op, but at least you would know.

Frequently hock, SI and hind suspensory issues are linked. If you leave any one of them unaddressed, the issues will return.

If you contact the vets now they might still be able to scan him while he's sedated. My vets scope first thing, so around now.
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You have listed reasons why the vet thinks that the suspensories may be damaged. It is your responsibility as his owner to find out, not to turn a blind eye to something as serious as suspensory damage.

Even more so because you have a professional riding this horse on a surface. Soft surfaces are not good for damaged soft tissue and could make things worse. If the scans are clear you can continue with a clear conscious knowing that your horse is not in pain from his suspensories. I do not understand why anyone would not pursue this option.

The money that you are paying a professional to school your horse will cover the cost of the scans. As he is already at the vets call them, confirm the price and get the scans done today.
 
B please don't spend money on treating for ulcers without knowing if the suspensories are damaged, they will only come back.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation and you know that I would fully support you calling it a day if he isn't tolerating being back in work, which sounds likely.
.
 
NR88 said:
You have listed reasons why the vet thinks that the suspensories may be damaged. It is your responsibility as his owner to find out, not to turn a blind eye to something as serious as suspensory damage.

y.
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Because I have to pay £250 excess every time I start a new claim and i have no money left., I have potentially four claims at the moment.
You have no idea about what I have already done for this horse in terms of investigation and the massive amount of money spent as you haven't been following so I suggest you lower your tone and stop being so accusory.
 
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