Advice wanted for horse head tossing

[Breagha]

Hi all,

My mare has got into a terrible habit of tossing her head when you apply the reins to slow her down, you can keep a contact and she won't do it but as soon as you ask for a downward transition she throws her head up.

Her saddle is fine, she recently had physio with no issue, her teeth were last done in December (she is normally done yearly and her feet are done 7 weekly.

Does anyone have any hints or tips to stop this?

Thanks

 

[Hepsibah]

I had this with Ruby when I first had her. It was a matter of finding a bit she was comfortable with. In her case a Myler with hooks which is much more still in the mouth than the french link eggbutt I tried her with first.

 

[Breagha]

I had this with Ruby when I first had her. It was a matter of finding a bit she was comfortable with. In her case a Myler with hooks which is much more still in the mouth than the french link eggbutt I tried her with first.

Thank you. Maybe I need to get in touch with the bit bank people and ask for information. She uses a french like pelham and french link hanging cheek (she is a strong mare which I have tried to school out of her and lost).

 

[Caol Ila]

Foinaven did this when I first bought him. He did it when I tried him at his previous owner's, so I knew it was thing before I bought him. I took a punt on a Myler combination bit after someone on HHO recommended it, and he hasn't thrown his head (in response to the rein aids anyway...flies don't count) since.

 

[Breagha]

Foinaven did this when I first bought him. He did it when I tried him at his previous owner's, so I knew it was thing before I bought him. I took a punt on a Myler combination bit after someone on HHO recommended it, and he hasn't thrown his head (in response to the rein aids anyway...flies don't count) since.

Thanks - I will look into this. I have put a few emails off to bit places to ask their advice. I sometimes put it down to frustration as if you just let her go, she doesnt toss her head, its only when pressure applied (or standing still in a line up at a show grr)

 

[Caol Ila]

I think he did it out of frustration because he didn't really understand the aid. He was initially backed and trained in a rope halter, and they'd done f*ck-tons of 'natural horsemanship' sort of groundwork with him. He hadn't been bitted long before I got him. I'm quite baffled that the pro 'natural horsemanship' trainer who bitted him did not teach him a soft feel or how to follow and yield to the contact. When I did a clinic with a student of Buck Branaman many, many years ago, all he did was talk about a soft feel, and we spent a long time just standing with our horses, getting them to give to the hand. Definitely boring, but very, very beneficial. He said it was really the basis of ridden work, and we weren't going to do anything else until we had that. Why would you -- especially as a trainer who purportedly follows that school -- bit up a green horse, not teach that, and then when the horse resists the hand (duh), tell its owner that it should be sold as trekking center pony because it won't do much else? As I said, baffled.

Because the Myler combination bit acts a little bit like a rope halter before the bit engages, it explains to him what the aid means. He's a completely different horse with a lovely, soft responsive mouth. Faster gaits are still a work in progress, but he will take a contact in walk and halt now, and he yields the jaw very nicely in lateral flexion.

 

[Pippity]

Blue was very similar. I tried all the suggested bits for a cob and finally got a bitting specialist in, who popped her in a single-joint curved snaffle and the problems immediately went away. (She has a high, narrow palate - unusual for a cob - so anything with two joints was quite uncomfortable when pressure was applied, hence the head-tossing.) Can you have a feel inside her mouth to see what sort of shape she is?

 

[Breagha]

Blue was very similar. I tried all the suggested bits for a cob and finally got a bitting specialist in, who popped her in a single-joint curved snaffle and the problems immediately went away. (She has a high, narrow palate - unusual for a cob - so anything with two joints was quite uncomfortable when pressure was applied, hence the head-tossing.) Can you have a feel inside her mouth to see what sort of shape she is?

I will attempt to do this.

Can you show me which bit you ended up with?

 

[Pippity]

I got this one: https://www.horsemanshipsaddlery.uk/hbf-orbit-bits.html

Shires do something very similar for about a third of the price, but I wanted a D-ring and I could only find the Shires in a small-ring eggbutt.

 

[Breagha]

I got this one: https://www.horsemanshipsaddlery.uk/hbf-orbit-bits.html

Shires do something very similar for about a third of the price, but I wanted a D-ring and I could only find the Shires in a small-ring eggbutt.

Thank you. Will see if I can get ahold of one to try.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Could you school her so you use your seat rather than the reins for a transition? In my downward trans from canter to trot I was given a great piece of advice and it really works. You shimmy!! So as your cantering you shimmy with your shoulders which breaks the cantering rhythm so they come down to trot. My horse can snatch at the reins if I use my hands too much and this has really helped.

 

[Breagha]

Could you school her so you use your seat rather than the reins for a transition? In my downward trans from canter to trot I was given a great piece of advice and it really works. You shimmy!! So as your cantering you shimmy with your shoulders which breaks the cantering rhythm so they come down to trot. My horse can snatch at the reins if I use my hands too much and this has really helped.

Never tried a shimmy but will give it a try. She hasn't ever really taken to listening to your seat since she was backed and we tried to build her foundation on listening to the seat but she took to using her short strong neck against us instead.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

May I urge you - before doing anything else - to get your vet to have a look at your horse.

It very well might not be "just" a behavioural or riding issue there could be a physical reason for it.

My mare had a headshaking issue and it was diagnosed as trigeminal nerve headshaking. Sadly there was nothing more we could do for her and alongside the trigeminal headshaking there were other issues (lots of them including laminitis and ongoing other things going on) and we had to make a sad decision six weeks ago today.

She was 10yo and started manifesting the problem from when she was about 9yo onwards.

Sorry not wanting to worry you, but I would strongly press you to get a vet out to take a look and see if there is a physical reason for this.

 

[milliepops]

I've had a headshaker, IMO it's a totally different action to a head toss that's related to the contact and would not be triggered by a particular event in ridden work - they usually do it at liberty as well so assuming yours is solely connected to downward transitions OP i would not panic at this stage.

How old is the horse? 12 months is a fairly long interval for a dental so I'd bring that forward before doing anything else to just check there's nothing untoward happening in her mouth.

 

[Breagha]

May I urge you - before doing anything else - to get your vet to have a look at your horse.

It very well might not be "just" a behavioural or riding issue there could be a physical reason for it.

My mare had a headshaking issue and it was diagnosed as trigeminal nerve headshaking. Sadly there was nothing more we could do for her and alongside the trigeminal headshaking there were other issues (lots of them including laminitis and ongoing other things going on) and we had to make a sad decision six weeks ago today.

She was 10yo and started manifesting the problem from when she was about 9yo onwards.

Sorry not wanting to worry you, but I would strongly press you to get a vet out to take a look and see if there is a physical reason for this.

Thank you - the mare has been seen by a vet for other reasons and I asked about her head tossing and they were not concerned. She doesnt have any other issues that would make me think she has an underlying problem. She only does it when I apply pressure to the reins. She did it at Blair this year, when I was asking her to come back to trot to change rein and after our extension. If I give her the reins and let her "GO" there is absolutely no head shaking at all.

But if I don't get to the bottom of it then I will revisit the vets again.

I've had a headshaker, IMO it's a totally different action to a head toss that's related to the contact and would not be triggered by a particular event in ridden work - they usually do it at liberty as well so assuming yours is solely connected to downward transitions OP i would not panic at this stage.

How old is the horse? 12 months is a fairly long interval for a dental so I'd bring that forward before doing anything else to just check there's nothing untoward happening in her mouth.

She is 9, I have had her since she was a yearling and did it in her early stages of being backed but settled out but seems to have decided its a good idea now. I have the vet coming to go vaccinations on the 13th, I think I will phone them and ask them to do her teeth at the same time to rule it out.

She never seems to need much done when she gets her teeth done but we do leave it to the vet to decide when they should be done again.

Thanks

 

[milliepops]

many horses are fine on a 12 month programme but as it's been a fair while it would be an obvious thing to check, could well have got a sharp tooth in that time or something else going on. One of mine sprouted a bit of retained woof tooth at that age, it must have been left when her previous owner had them removed. I'd never have expected it but that made her go a bit tricky in the contact. Always worth giving the benefit of the doubt

if teeth ruled out and other checks done, then I'd ask your instructor if they are seeing something that is happening, double check her general understanding and acceptance of the contact, and if you want to explore bitting then I'd probably get a bit-fit consultant in because they can bring all the various things with them for you to try in a day, rather than a trial and error back and forth with the bit bank.

 

[Breagha]

many horses are fine on a 12 month programme but as it's been a fair while it would be an obvious thing to check, could well have got a sharp tooth in that time or something else going on. One of mine sprouted a bit of retained woof tooth at that age, it must have been left when her previous owner had them removed. I'd never have expected it but that made her go a bit tricky in the contact. Always worth giving the benefit of the doubt

if teeth ruled out and other checks done, then I'd ask your instructor if they are seeing something that is happening, double check her general understanding and acceptance of the contact, and if you want to explore bitting then I'd probably get a bit-fit consultant in because they can bring all the various things with them for you to try in a day, rather than a trial and error back and forth with the bit bank.

Thanks will go from there and see what happens. We had a bit lady come to the yard a few years ago (not sure who) as I didnt need it at the time and lets just say none of the horses are still in the bits they were told to use and they havent been for a while.

 

[oldie48]

Some great advice already so just a thought, is your horse becoming unbalanced in the downward transition and throwing his head up to balance? I know you say that your horse doesn't respond to the seat but really downward transitions come from the seat not the hand so he might improve if you spend time getting him to slow by just using your seat. You can start this by just doing it in walk into halt at first, sit deep and stop following the movement and keep your contact consistent, reward when he halts. I've found just exhaling in a slow way helps as it relaxes the body and helps me to sit deeper. Also work on half halts to let him know something is going to happen. I freely admit that I am hopeless with HHs, always mean to use them but don't so it's what I am going to work on with my new share horse, but I think they might help you. There's so much more to a good downward transition than just using the rein but obviously an uncomfortable bit, sharp teeth or other issues don't help. Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[Breagha]

Some great advice already so just a thought, is your horse becoming unbalanced in the downward transition and throwing his head up to balance? I know you say that your horse doesn't respond to the seat but really downward transitions come from the seat not the hand so he might improve if you spend time getting him to slow by just using your seat. You can start this by just doing it in walk into halt at first, sit deep and stop following the movement and keep your contact consistent, reward when he halts. I've found just exhaling in a slow way helps as it relaxes the body and helps me to sit deeper. Also work on half halts to let him know something is going to happen. I freely admit that I am hopeless with HHs, always mean to use them but don't so it's what I am going to work on with my new share horse, but I think they might help you. There's so much more to a good downward transition than just using the rein but obviously an uncomfortable bit, sharp teeth or other issues don't help. Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Hi,
Thanks for replying. She can do it if you half halt her. Even when we were put for a canter through the woods last night, I was behind a slower horse, in 2 point and trying to half halt and she throws her head up.
I will try this tomorrow with my seat, she just hasn't been great at listening to it. But will try again. She booked for teeth on 13th as I already had vet coming for yearly injections.

 

[sbloom]

I would still suspect saddle being part of the problem, checking a saddle when a horse is unhappy can't be a "box ticking" exercise and sometimes you need to try other saddles, or a special pad etc to see if the saddle could still be the cause, even if it looks okay. If the horse goes better with another set up/saddle then the saddle is part of the issue.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

As well as the saddle, have you checked the fit of the bridle? For some reason, browbands are often too short and annoy the horse but any part of it could catch the horse when you bring the reins into play.

 

[Breagha]

I would still suspect saddle being part of the problem, checking a saddle when a horse is unhappy can't be a "box ticking" exercise and sometimes you need to try other saddles, or a special pad etc to see if the saddle could still be the cause, even if it looks okay. If the horse goes better with another set up/saddle then the saddle is part of the issue.

Hi thanks for replying. We have had the same saddle for a number of years and is checked every 3 to 6 months by my saddle fitter sometimes sooner if I feel my horse has changed. I don't think the saddle is the problem but I can try my husbands horses saddle on to see if it make a difference.

I currently use an acavello pad with the gel on top.

As well as the saddle, have you checked the fit of the bridle? For some reason, browbands are often too short and annoy the horse but any part of it could catch the horse when you bring the reins into play.

The browband on her current bridle I think is a good fit but I can play about and see if she's better with a bigger one.

 

[Breagha]

Ok so update.

Breagha got her teeth done and she had marks up each side of her mouth and the starting of ulceration on one side, I felt really guilty about it but I was going off what the vet said about her only needing done yearly. So taking it down to 6 to 8 months and going from there.

So, bitting settle back down into her pelham like I know she can (how annoying since it could have been avoided for going to Blair but such is life) BUT I am still looking for a dressage legal bit she will settle in.

I have contacted a bitting person locally but havent heard back yet if they have come to us.

 

[Breagha]

Update -

The head tossing is still happening. Thus far she has had back, saddle, bridle and teeth checked.

We have tried various bits.

She is more settled riding in a hackamore which pointed towards issues in her mouth but we got an xray of her mouth and nothing untoward is showing.

We are currently trying a high dose of danilion and riding in her bit again BUT the head tossing is still happening.

Does anyone have any advice on where to go from here?

Vet said her next thing she would check would be for arthritis in her jaw but it moves so freely without reaction she doesn't think it would be that.

I am now out of ideas. ?

 

[Hepsibah]

Is there a particular reason you need to have her bitted? It could be a nerve issue in her mouth which wouldn't show up on an x ray. if she goes better in a hackamore I'd stick with that.

 

[Breagha]

Is there a particular reason you need to have her bitted? It could be a nerve issue in her mouth which wouldn't show up on an x ray. if she goes better in a hackamore I'd stick with that.

Although there was no head tossing in the hackamore, its not ideal as she's a strong horse and when you need brakes her chin near touches her neck!

Also, I normally show her and obviously I can't use a hackamore.

Would like to get to the bottom of her issues.

 

[Hepsibah]

I would suggest to you the possibility of facial neuralgia having developed in your mare which is triggered by pressure from the bit. It is difficult to accurately diagnose in a more usual seasonally affected horse but if you've had her mouth x rayed and had her mouth looked at by an EDT, trigeminal mediated headshaking would be my next thought.
Vets usually diagnose it by looking at the symptoms and ruling out other possible causes.
There is no cure for it, treatments attempt to provide relief from the pain by avoiding triggers like sunlight or pollen with nose nets and UV light protection masks. In your mare's case the trigger would appear to be the bit.

 

[Breagha]

I would suggest to you the possibility of facial neuralgia having developed in your mare which is triggered by pressure from the bit. It is difficult to accurately diagnose in a more usual seasonally affected horse but if you've had her mouth x rayed and had her mouth looked at by an EDT, trigeminal mediated headshaking would be my next thought.
Vets usually diagnose it by looking at the symptoms and ruling out other possible causes.
There is no cure for it, treatments attempt to provide relief from the pain by avoiding triggers like sunlight or pollen with nose nets and UV light protection masks. In your mare's case the trigger would appear to be the bit.

My head is going to this diagnosis also but was hoping someone would have any other ideas to try.

I will speak to my vets. She's on 2 danilion twice a day just now to check pain reaction.

Thank you. X

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Have you tried a range of bit materials? I have heard of horses that can't tolerate stainless steel bits and I expect that it is possible for them to be intolerant of other materials, I would experiment tosee if there is any material that she is comfortable with.

 

[Breagha]

Have you tried a range of bit materials? I have heard of horses that can't tolerate stainless steel bits and I expect that it is possible for them to be intolerant of other materials, I would experiment tosee if there is any material that she is comfortable with.

No I haven't tried this. Never really thought of trying it as she accepted the bit from a 3 year old to an almost 10 year old.

Do you suggest any bits to try? Xx