Aggressive Farriers

[Sparklet]

One of the yard farriers lost one of his customers a month ago for thumping a horse on the yard - the owner took exception and booked a different farrier next time the horse was due.

My daughter witnessed the same farrier kicking another horse because it lost its balance and tried to snatch its foot away. My daughter was shocked and told the owner. This owner, although upset about the incident decided to continue having the same farrier.

Another of his customers reasoned that the job is pretty dangerous and farriers cant afford to get injured by an ill mannered horse - the farrier in question was nearly kicked in the head the previous week because a horse objected and kicked out with a back leg when he was bent down - he only avoided injury because the horse hit his hand rather than his head.

I dont have this farrier and mine copes pretty well without needing to discipline horses in this way - was incredibly patient when my youngster was being very difficult at first - now she is a model customer and stands like an angel.

What do you all think - do you have sympathy for farriers and think it is acceptable for them to hit/kick horses which lose their balance or do you think that a farrier should be ditched if any aggression is shown.

Personally I would completey agree with discipline if the horse tries to kick and I would expect to be told about it.

What do you all think?

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you all think - do you have sympathy for farriers and think it is acceptable for them to hit/kick horses which lose their balance or do you think that a farrier should be ditched if any aggression is shown.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good lord - sacked on the spot wouldn't be fast enough.

Absolutely agree with discipline where appropriate - however this man sounds like someone with very little understanding of the animal he is dealing with, and a very short fuse.

He wouldn't be my farrier.

 

[Chex]

I guess it depends, but I would not put up with the farrier laying a finger on Chex. But then he behaves, and only gets restless or pulls his legs away because his joints are getting worse. The farrier understands this, and is very sympathetic (he actually tells me off if I give Chex a row). If the horse was being stupid, I'd prefer to give the row myself, wouldn't want horse to associate farrier with getting smacked. For losing their balance I wouldn't give a telling off though! In my experience, the horses bhave better if the farrier is relaxed, rather than if they're uptight and angry.

 

[LifeofRiley]

I'm happy for my farrier to give the horses a telling off, a dig in the ribs or whatever if they misbehave but I would be miffed and tell them so if they whacked any of them because they lost their balance!!!

 

[debbielinder]

When i got my horse the farrier we used to use was very aggresive he never hit any of them but used to shout terribley my horse got bad to shoe so we changed farriers and although this one never was aggresive with her he wasnt overly friendly and she never became comfortable with him so i changed again my farrier now shoes her cold in her stable and shes an angel. he agrees that it may be a little awkward to shoe her in her stable but shes happy so why change it!

 

[Blizzard]

I agree with Amymay, a farrier who hits a horse for losing its balance is a bad farrier!

I can just imagine how he would be with a nervous youngster, poor thing would be traumatised after a session with him!

 

[ladylisa]

I think it depends on the horse, i had a cob that was a little naughty when shod, but the farrier would hit him for slamming his feet down and it just made him worse, resulting in him starting to rear!!!
If the farrier had been quiet with him he may have got slightly better each time he came!
On the other hand my sister has the CB in my siggy he is pig ignorant and has no respect at all and will just decide to walk off while having his feet done, and he does behave better when given a slap, as he will be 7 this year he is still learning, and it doesnt help that my sister lets him get away with murder!

 

[Super_Kat]

If the horse was bieng badly behaved it should be repremanded (your talking to somebody who's had 5 farriers refuse to shoe her horse becaue she can be so naughty!) but if the horse is loosing it's balance why should the poor animal be hit.

 

[AmyMay]

In defence of farriers though - I would say that mine is just great. Amy is very good to shoe, as was Freddy. But poor old Fred did find it difficult to have his back feet trimmed (no back shoes on). My farrier would keep the foot as close to the ground as possible when rasping it to help the old fella - and we both really, really appreciated it. Unfortunately the farriers back didn't!

He is very good with the youngsters on the farm, is firm with them when needed, and generally an all round good egg!!

 

[Sparklet]

A friend of mine did have a horse that was an absolute pain when shod and he would literally drag both farrier and handler across the yard.

This was several years ago and was her first horse, but to be honest part of the problem was the length of time the farrier took to shoe - up to 3 hours, and the horse in question had a weak back, treated by vet and physio. The same horse was much better behaved with a new farrier who was a 3/4 hour man.

 

[KatB]

Horses should be disciplined, but farriers need to know when to discipline. If they are telling a horse off because they havent checked if it is standing properly before picking a leg up and the horse pulls back, that is wrong. If it is down to the horse being difficult then it should be told off. Just my opinion, but that what makes a good farrier (except obviously putting shoes on well!)

 

[shadowboy]

Its a toughie, but when shadow was first shod he was fine, but when he fractured his hock he was poked and proded lots and this caused him to be touchy with having his legs done, he needed shoing as his feet were getting short so my wonderful old farrier came and tried for over an hour- no luck he was kicked badly too. In the end i told him he had my authority to give shadow a good old wallop. ( i know lots of you wont agree with that) but anyhow, he stopped pratting around and is now a model horse. He never gets smacked or anything now, but sometimes i do feel they just need to be told! However, i would not let a farrier hit my horse without my authority or in a blasee (sp?) kind of way.

 

[Agent XXX999]

Hmmm

I know of many good farrier’s and one shocking one who whacked a pony so hard with his hammer the mare now has a permanent dent in her side.

Now my best friend’s bro is a farrier with a sparkling reputation in the area, everyone thinks the sun shines out of the back of his van….but, on discussion with him, I was shocked to find out that he is guilty of giving horses a subtle elbow in the chin or poke in the side.

I asked him why and he said that some horses are so rude, ignorant and ill mannered they deserve it. He showed me his back where a horse had bitten him the previous day – it was cut open. It transpires that the owner is quite happy to leave the farrier to it and does not supervise the horse while she farts about on the yard talking to her friends and letting him deal with the bargy biting behaviour.

Now I am not fussed if my horse gets a whack from my farrier or not (because I trust him and his judgement) however, for those of you who are, I suggest that the farrier would not do it for no good reason and if you stood and held your horse for the 40 mins it is being shod, you could control him too (and therefore take the responsibility from the farrier)

Just because farriers are manual workers I think people forget that they are trained professionals who have been through 7 years training. To me they should be treated with the same respect and attention as the vet/physio/dentist. The fact is they are not and they get taken for granted left right and centre…

Look after them and they will look after you!

Just my tuppence worth!

 

[TGM]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because farriers are manual workers I think people forget that they are trained professionals who have been through 7 years training. To me they should be treated with the same respect and attention as the vet/physio/dentist.

[/ QUOTE ]

* gives FeuFolet a huge round of applause and a gold star*

 

[Sparklet]

[ QUOTE ]
........................ however, for those of you who are, I suggest that the farrier would not do it for no good reason and if you stood and held your horse for the 40 mins it is being shod, you could control him too (and therefore take the responsibility from the farrier)

[/ QUOTE ]
The horse I initially mentioned was being held by the owners husband - apparently the farrier kicked him so hard he knocked him off all his feet - the husband said nothing and my daughter was appauled.

I must admit he is a grumpy, surley person anyway and I would not be too keen to tackle him - the other woman who ditched him decided against tackling him and just booked someone else.

I do agree good farriers are worth their weight in gold though - my farrier does both my unsupervised and even sweeps up.

 

[Patches]

I'm with you 100% there shadowmonkey.

When I first had Patches she was a nightmare for the farrier. She never kicked him, but she'd rear, barge about knocking into sideways and snatching her feet back, often with him ending up with nails pricking his legs (through his chaps!)

I never laughed it off (as some owners do) and indeed was mortified. One day I told him I didn't mind if he disciplined her when she barged sideways or reared. With the barging, he'd block her with his shoulder forcefully. I told him I had no objection to him hitting her (within reason) so long as he didn't use an instrument to hit her with. He blocked her twice and I remember he smacked her once. From that day on she's stood like a saint for him! The transformation was marvellous.

I see it as my responsibility to present a horse to the farrier who is well behaved and amenable to the shoeing or rasping process. With an older horse that you inherit shoeing problems with, this can take some time. With my weanling (he's rising two now), picking his feet up and getting him to stand calmly was one of my top priorities.

I respect my farrier immensely. He's a terrific lad and he has done wonders with each and every one of my horses. Nothing annoys a farrier more than an owner who ignores their horse's bad behaviour during shoeing or whispers sweet nothing's in their ears while they are kicking the farrier.

They are all self employed and cannot afford the time off. We have to consider what an inconvenience to us it would be if our farrier had to let us all down because another owner's horse had kicked them. We'd not be happy. Every one of us has the responsibility to ensure our horses, our own and the farriers safety while shoeing takes place.

 

[SueAllen]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because farriers are manual workers I think people forget that they are trained professionals who have been through 7 years training. To me they should be treated with the same respect and attention as the vet/physio/dentist

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more. The physio and dentist and often the vet could also be termed 'manual workers' too as they deal hands on with the horse and can use some fairly basic tools. I have a great deal of respect for my (admittedly very good) farrier as I do any other professionals who help me maintain my Ned.

 

[evsj]

If it was a one off incident of disciplining a horse then maybe it could be tolerated. But this guy sounds like he can't control his rag and I certainly don't think kicking an animal is warranted. I have had about 5 different farriers for mine, since her first set of shoes - not one of them has ever raised a hand to her, to my knowledge.

 

[cosmo_sam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you all think - do you have sympathy for farriers and think it is acceptable for them to hit/kick horses which lose their balance or do you think that a farrier should be ditched if any aggression is shown.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good lord - sacked on the spot wouldn't be fast enough.

Absolutely agree with discipline where appropriate - however this man sounds like someone with very little understanding of the animal he is dealing with, and a very short fuse.

He wouldn't be my farrier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree! the problem with farriery is that many of them are far from horsey, but have ended up as farriers due to family tradition etc.

I think that's always difficut to rationalise as someone who works so closely with our horses, may have zero clue about how to discipline a horse correctly and, as in this case, just resort to pure violence!

This could have serious repercussions with farriers in the future and so I would definately sack on the spot!

My farrier's dad was a farrier, and also drove shires. He says he grew up with horses with big feet, who have a sense of humour and will choose to sit on him for fun!

He loves George and George loves him

 

[aimeerose]

i think FeuFolet summed it up really well,

yes i have met farriers who are surley and 'slap' happy with horses, but i think this comes from exasperation at being left to deal with bad behaviour and rudeness from other horses and those who really have 'just lost balance' can pay for that.

im not excusing it but i get on really well with my farrier (hes fab!) but he has some horror stories about horses he's been left to shoe with not so much as a 'would you like me to hold him/her/it'
i think he does really well to stay so cheerful and patient!
but yes - if my mare is messing about - he knows he has permission to clout her!!

simply hitting her for loosing balance would not be acceptable.

sorry - very long reply that doesnt actually say a lot!!!

 

[Agent XXX999]

* blushes *

So true though. I hate it when I hear them getting slagged off x

 

[cosmo_sam]

Would just add, I also agree that alot of cheeky owners cause good farriers to get sour!!

I always stand with George, if only to chat and make a nicer atmosphere for my farrier.

This morning though actually, I had to leave when G was half done and my farrier was happy to just put him in the field

he's worth his weight in gold!!

 

[Patches]

Where in Cheshire are you? My old farrier's dad used to drive but I can't remember if he was a farrier himself or not. Initials aren't AD are they?

 

[Scarlett]

I agree with discipline when neede, is a horse genuinely being a prat/trying to bite or kick etc...

However had a farrier hit or kicked my horse unnecessarily he would have had me administer the exact same to him...

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

I would never under ANY circumstances allow my farrier to hit my horse - my last one did and he was sacked on the spot - my farrier now is absolutely brilliant and even though rock is a devil sometimes hes so good and patient with him and rocks responds to this

 

[vivhewe]

My friend's farrier will tell the horse off if it is carrying on, I've known him slap an old b:tch of a mare (she was, trust me!) in the ribs with his hoof nippers, however she did just need made to stand still and it worked, she was trying it on. He takes no nonsense from them but is a bloody good farrier, although a lot of people wouldn't like him. I do think it depends on the horse and the owner - he tells off the ones of my friends which he can when he needs to, but if it is a youngster he is patient with them and very good at getting them used to having their feet handled.

My farrier is also fantastic, talks to the horses, insults me at every available opportunity and makes a fab job, but won't do a horse if it carries on, as he's said himself he has to earn a living and can't afford to be off because someone's horse has kicked him. (Thank god my two behave!)

I think it's divided really - a farrier that tells them off when they misbehave but will shoe horses that are total sh:ts or a one that is good with them but won't risk shoeing the total sods. You can choose but a lot of the time it is the horse misbehaving and not the farrier - they are only human and have so much patience too

 

[vicijp]

I wouldnt let any farrier get away with hitting any of my horses. If the horse is tricky you should be there to hold it, and any discipline should be up with you.
My farrier is very good, all most of my youngsters need is someone who is very quiet but firm. The main man is good but does these funny groans/shouts when one plays up - youd swear he was dying. He has 3 monkeys, 2 fully qualified, 1 nearly - all very good. Generally the lads do all of the youngsters, but my own horse The Cheekster is very tricky. You have to shoe him loose (not even a headcollar) and just generally ignore him. The lads find him the best in the yard to shoe and every so often main man thinks he'll have a go. One of his groans is all it takes to set the Cheekster off, and he soon gives up (lads always know to not go far!).
If any farrier touched any of my horses I would be astounded, not only because I havent done my job properly, but at the sheer cheek of it. Theyd quickly earn themselves 5 mins in the box with The Cheekster.

 

[ruscara]

All I have ever seen/heard my farrier do to 'discipline' a horse is to growl 'Now then!'. This works every time.
I would not tolerate a farrier who abused horses. There is no need.

 

[Tia]

My farriers come to me on the full understanding that if ANY of my horses misbehave whilst he is doing them........then it will be ME who disciplines them!

I would never ever have a farrier doing the disciplining - this is a sure fire way of having a horse petrified of them. The horse will forgive me almost immediately.......not so the case if the farrier were the one to tell them off.

I hold all of my horses for the farrier and always have, however if I was one of these people who pass the job onto someone else, then I'm afraid I would have to lump it as they are the people having to handle the horse.

I've had a few horses who were nervous of farriers to begin with, however in no time they realise that the farrier will never do anything to them.

Oh and I fired a farrier for almost hitting one of mine with his rasp. To me that was almost as good as done......not acceptable with me.

 

[cosmo_sam]

[ QUOTE ]
Where in Cheshire are you? My old farrier's dad used to drive but I can't remember if he was a farrier himself or not. Initials aren't AD are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

George is stabled in Little Leigh

And no my farriers initials are GO

Sam x